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Videos of Reasoner's offensive abilities

This is some kind of a follow-up of Ozzy's FanPost "Is Reasoner really an upgrade over Konopka? Numbers say no". I felt challenged by Ozzy's view of Reasoner's offensive and all-around game to add some context and evidence if you like. I understand people value fighting and other intangibles differently and have varying expectations for what the ideal 4th liner should bring to the table. So, it's clear comparing Reasoner and Konopka will always yield various opinions. But I think Ozzy's been pretty harsh on Marty Reasoner, estimating his all-around game and offensive talent below the level of Zenon Konopka's abilities. As much as you may like Konokpa overall, I think that might really stretch things.

To be clear, this is not an angry response to Ozzy or something, not at all. I'm very glad he brought up the subject because I had never paid all that much attention to Reasoner's skills myself. I just felt it would be a fun exercise to take a look at some of his highlights to get a better idea of his potential and therefore decided to put a new FanPost together. So, I just cite him above here to make the connection to what we've been discussing here this week anyway. Thanks again, Ozzy, for bringing it up.

Star-divide

Now, normally, I don't even care much at all about how many goals 4th liners score. I'm just happy when they're doing their job. So, if Reasoner was able to hold his two-way play together, I'd not even be disappointed to see his offensive game fading. The Isles would have enough other guys who can provide goals. But yeah, in order to get a better idea of what kind of a player Reasoner is I think his offensive abilities should be noted.

I went into the archives to check the Isles' game highlights for some offensive contribution of Reasoner. While selecting the plays embeded below I tried to think about what a typical 4th line center would have been able to do in these situations and chose 7 plays I think Konopka wouldn't have been able to pull off with the same effectiveness.

No one's going to be blown away by these videos - they're all pretty typical hockey plays. Not every shot there is a great scoring chance and based on these videos you might think Reasoner hasn't done all that much damage offensively. Well, this might be true. Or he might of course have had other (deflection/rebound) opportunities, not captured by the video highlights of the NHL. Or getting opportunities is of course a function of what kind of TOI and line mates you get. So, if you think that selection looks kind of lame for a top 7 of shots, I think Reasoner could be blamed only partly for that. But that's not the point anyway.

The important thing I want to show is what Reasoner's done with the opportunities he got. Because, clearly, what you do with the opportunities, i.e. how much danger you create, is indeed a function of your ability to read the play and shoot the puck. So, if you have time to go through these videos, just try to pay attention to what Reasoner does in these situations and whether for example Konopka's shot, agility, hockey sense would be good enough to do create a similar amount of danger in these situations.

vs Rangers (10/15/2011):


vs Jets (11/3/2011):


vs Rangers (11/15/2011):


vs Canadiens (11/17/2011):


vs Wild #1 (12/17/2011):


vs Wild #2 (12/17/2011):


vs Rangers (12/26/2011):


Ability to score 10 goals

Again, some shots were not even scoring chances and not very threatening at all. I understand if you feel he should have no more than one or two goals based on this selection. But it's of course not complete and I'm not trying to imply Reasoner is a fantastic offensive talent or has been great this season anyway. But I feel his skills are underrated a little and these videos show some of that. In some I'm quite impressed with how Reasoner's reading the plays and able to get himself into open space and pretty good shooting positions. And in others you get the impression he's creating some decent rebound chances because his shots are tough to handle (although maybe the goalies were just off their game in those situations).

And yeah, I think that's things Konopka couldn't do very well at all and Reasoner should be able to do at age 34 or 35 as well as at 30. So, I'm not seeing his lack of production thus far this season as a sign of declining skills. The pucks rather have just not been going in for him. I think he still has the ability to score around 10 goals per season and I'm guessing we can look forward to the 2nd half, when the shooting luck hopefully will turn for him and we'll see his hockey sense and pretty decent shot paying off. Not that it would influence the Isles' season all that greatly, but yeah, just wanted to show another perspective on what Reasoner can do.

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I'm glad you brought his up, because there is another interesting debate here.

Just to start off, Konopka doesn’t have a long nhl tenure, but he has been a solid pt producer in the ahl and even a decent goalscorer, averaging around a goal every 3gms or 25goals/season in his career. Watching his game, you could definitely argue this isn’t because of Konopka’s having “great” offensive skills, but most likely due to his strength/battling/determination/“grit”. That combo of things can take a player a lot farther then one would think. 2 main examples: Milan Lucic and Tomas Holmstrom.

Holmstrom has very little “hockey skills”, but the man’s determination, battling, and grit playing hard nosed in front of the net has made him a 5X 20goal scorer in his career and a useful PP tool, not to mention a 30goal threat/and 1X 30goal scorer in his prime. Does Holmstrom have a good amount of “hockey skills” or “hockey IQ”, not really, but the man has found a way to be a very successful nhler and solid goalscorer in his career still.

Lucic, the man is a physical animal, as are a handful or 2 more forwards in the nhl. He is an average at best skater, doesn’t have a great shot, and has limited puckhandling skills, “but” the man is as strong as an ox, plays a physical agitating style, wins a lot of puck battles, hits everything that moves, and plays with extreme determination and grit. Lucic had/has the hockey skillset of a bottom 6er, but because of his playing style, strength/size, physicality, and determination/grit/toughness, he has turned himself into a solid top 6 powerforward and is on the verge of getting a 2nd career 30goal/60pts season and is looking like he will be a repeat 25goals/55pts scorer for most of his career barring injuries.

I’m not saying that Konopka has the, how can I put it, “non-direct hockey skills” that holmstrom or lucic do as top 6 forwards with lower natural skills/IQ, but he similarly makes the most of what God gave him. He battles, plays with fire, fights in front of the net, throws the body a lot, and we all know “has the gritz/toughness” team’s want to see from their players. I think those things makes him better on paper than anyone would think. And the ability of separating a player from the puck on offense I think is an underrated ability (which as seen by martin’s play this year, can create shots/turnovers/scoring chances when done).

Then there is reasoner, obviously has more “hockey IQ”/“offensive hockey skills” then konopka, but he seems to play a more laid back/less-determined/less-dire type of offensive game (maybe it’s because he concentrates more of defense, but that’s what I see). I do think I underminded reasoner’s o-skills a bit in my post, but I still don’t think he brings anything to the table where he is a “generator” of 4th line scoring by himself, but neither does konopka though, both are limited offensively. I still think it’s closer then one would think for the reasons I stated. That said, I hope Reasoner turns it around and I certainly think he has the ability to look better then he did in his 1st 2 months/3months overall of hockey, where he looked really bad at times.

What do you mean they won 4 cups in a row? Is that possible?

by OzzyFan on Jan 6, 2012 11:40 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah, I don’t negate these things at all. Actually, I’d even call Holmstrom’s abilities a skill indeed (though a skill not translating easily to EV hockey). Lucic is just generally a very good hockey player in my opinion. You’re attributing much of it to his grit and stuff – sure, that’s an important part of his game, but I think he’s (also) just generally good at playing hockey. Don’t know very well about his puckhandling, but I think his shot is outstanding, better than anyone’s on the Isles’ roster except maybe Moulson’s.

I know you’re not implying Konopka has the same abilities, but I really just don’t see anything similar in his game at all. Yeah, he’d not easily be pushed out of the crease, but the thing is he never makes it there. When he’s on the ice, due to his very bad puckhandling, passing, ability to drive the play, his team is almost never able to create sustained pressure where something like strength in front of the net could come into play at all. Reasoner I think has some abilities who come into play relatively quickly. And as for Konopka again, I haven’t seen him separating players from the puck on offense much at all (also, I put no faith in that takeaway stat at all).

However, looking forward to catch some Ottawa games and checking out how Konopka’s doing there.

by BenHasna on Jan 8, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I'm not saying Konopka is a better offensive player, just that "last year konopka" offense>this year "so far" Reasoner offense.

Reasoner, based on his past play and numbers at the nhl level, is the better offensive player and better defensive player, this year he hasn’t been though imo. If we get the Reasoner from last year on the team, we’ll be fine. Hell, even Reasoner from 2-yrs ago on Atl playing with weak linemates was a solid defensive 4th liner. I don’t blame the Isles for going after him, his resume sounded like a good 4th line center to have, and on capable of filling in 3rd line duty if injured. I’m just saying, “this reasoner”/much worse then usual-reasoner, that we’ve seen on the isles, is arguably not better then “averagish” konopka. That’s just my view. On paper though, no question Reasoner’s career is better then Konopka’s will ever be. What Reasoner has done in the past, Konopka could only dream doing. But I question Reasoner’s decline overall still a bit, and “shotty” play overall. I still think Reasoner can turn it around, and if he was as good as he’s been the past couple years, our 4th line will be fine.

What do you mean they won 4 cups in a row? Is that possible?

by OzzyFan on Jan 8, 2012 11:32 PM EST up reply actions  

No doubt Reasoner hasn't played up to his own level, and in the first 30 games ZK has played over his normal level a bit

but we can say, in 35 games this year, Reasoner came within 2 goals and 2 assists from tying ZK’s 82 games, season points total from last year. If not for the injury, my money would still have been on Reasoner to produce a better offensive season than ZK.

by CanadianIsleslifer on Jan 7, 2012 12:54 PM EST reply actions  

I'll say even with the injury

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by Keith Quinn on Jan 8, 2012 1:38 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

He definitely has an instinct for getting the puck to open or shooting areas

I like that selection. And the idea on some of those shots is not necessarily to score directly, but to cause good rebound chances: the first and last clips, the shots to the low far posts, are perfect examples. Those are difficult shots for goalies to kill the rebound, because the same instinct and muscle memory that kicks pucks to the corner can put those pucks into the circles or slot area. And Wallace got a great second shot off the one chance, that was also stopped.

Part of this is a demonstration of something I read in passing elsewhere, that Reasoner’s PDO has been among the lowest among forwards so far. And it’s not just on the offensive end either, the Isles’ goalies haven’t done well keeping pucks out of the net while Reasoner’s out there.

With a little better puck luck, this is probably a conversation that doesn’t need to happen – though I’m glad that it is, because digging into why stats look the way they do is fascinating and informative.

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by mikb on Jan 7, 2012 2:57 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah, it was just fascinating for me to once take a look at something I hadn't focused on much at all.

That’s exactly where I’m coming from. I also liked the clip against the Canadiens, where he’s finding open space pretty well. Granted, the Canadiens are running around a bit there in front of their own net, but still, Reasoner’s seeing the play very well I feel and hoping for that pass into his wheelhouse all the way.

by BenHasna on Jan 8, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Nice counterpoint...

I stand behind my pre-season comments that the Zeke for Reasoner roster swap will, has and will continue to benefit the Islanders.
When you have a free weekend maybe you can justify the Rolston deal with a series of videos of pucks scuffing up the boards from every conceivable place on the ice.
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by JPinVA on Jan 7, 2012 4:56 PM EST reply actions  

The Comparison Shouldn't Be Between Reasoner and Konopka, But Reasoner and Another Down Line-up Center

When he was signed, I thought that Reasoner was an upgrade because he should at least be able to play a regular shift without hurting you much defensively and take defensive zone face-offs. He’s been a major disappointment (at least to me) in both areas. Does he just not want to be here?

Konopka was bad in his own zone, and a bit of a loose cannon, so I have no objection to the fact Isles replaced him. The real issue, though, is whether Garth could’ve have gotten a better “scrub” type 4th line center to eat up some minutes than Reasoner. Maybe he couldn’t, but it’s too bad he didn’t.

by rmblifn on Jan 7, 2012 5:59 PM EST reply actions  

On the topic of other options

I had my eye on Eric Belanger, I believe BenHasna eyed Marcel Goc. Belanger jumped at an (I think) 3-year deal from the Oilers and has been not quite as good as I expected (and just 51% on faceoffs).

It’s a tough hole to fill in some ways: You’re hoping for an NHL-level talent who has accepted that he can’t provide top-six offense but still offers more smarts than the average checking scrub.

I’ve found Reasoner a disappointment, but I would sooner bet he’ll end up providing value over the two years of his deal than I would that Konopka provides some essential element the Islanders now lack. Let’s see if Ottawa, which doesn’t even dress him every night, re-signs him, or if they do what both TBL and the NYI did: “Thanks, we needed that, but now we need something better.”

Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.

by Dominik on Jan 8, 2012 12:01 AM EST up reply actions  

I was disappointed they let him go

I got the concern that he was about to decline, but they ended up not finding a better replacement at the time.

Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.

by Dominik on Jan 8, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, good point

I had Marcel Goc in my mind indeed. He signed with the Panthers for 3 years at $1.7 mil per. He’s worked out ok for them, playing against 2nd toughs on a line with guys like Skille, Kopecky, Bergenheim, Upshall, starting in his own zone most of the time and still outshooting the opposition quite comfortably. I don’t think the Isles could have offered him the same kind of quality line mates and you never know how his effectiveness would have been in a lesser role. So, not easy to compare his results this year with Reasoner’s, but I guess Goc would have outplayed Reasoner. So, yeah, there was a better option on the market in my opinion. Could Garth have landed it, I don’t know. He could have overpayed a little, but I guess Goc would have preferred Florida anyway…

So, I think signing Reasoner was the best thing he could do to upgrade the center position. I rather think Garth failed on upgrading the pieces around the centers. They should have given Reasoner more help, i.e. a different role, more mature/responsible, just better line mates. One guy we discussed as an option to acquire some depth on the wing would have been Michael Repik, who’s looking quite good on that same Florida stat sheet, too. He’s only played in 12 games, though, and against very easy competition, but yeah, I’m pretty sure he’d contribute more than Nino or Wallace.

by BenHasna on Jan 8, 2012 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  


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