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The Nino Niederreiter Files

Editor's Note: This FanPost covers a hot topic here at LHH as we watch Niederreiter learn at the NHL level. The much-debated decision to keep him in the NHL is in the past; the next question is how the little parts of his game are progressing given that decision. So consider this a look back at the 19-year-old's season thus far, with the most important chapter yet to come. Also consider it a chance for diesel metaphors.

Nino Niederreiter has now played 22 of 45 games this season and seems to have built some confidence, which he has shown in the past six games or so. Let us now look at some of the progression Nino has made since leaving the WHL in lieu of the NHL.

Disclaimer: Not here to talk about his Cap hit ... though this is long.

Star-divide

Checklist: Summer Skating, Conditioning, Physical Play

Nino came into training camp after attending a power skating camp, which he attended to develop those elusive first couple of steps that give players the extra edge when breaking away and creating space. We have seen this first hand with John Tavares this season. John's first few steps have given him the ability to blow by players instead of in the past, having them catch up. Much like torque coming from a turbo diesel, it's all about getting to your speed as quickly as possible. It's not very likely that a player will develop more top speed, but the ability to get there can be improved.

So check mark number one on Nino's list was gaining some extra down low speed and as seen from the past couple of games, it seems to be finally coming around. Nino has been making plays off the boards with some quick steps that allow him to get shots to the net.

Nino's conditioning was also a question mark coming out of rookie camp and into training camp. Nino being 19 years old has not even fully developed and like breakout speed this can be improved. Nino went to work and improved this area of his game and we are seeing that now, with his hustle to return to his own zone and make plays that would not have been possible before hand. It seems this aspect of his game is moving right along and should no longer be a question moving forward.

Moving on to physical play, Nino has finally been noticeable after that preseason groin injury, which seemed to not only take a step out of him, but also make him hesitate when going for a check along the boards. We like Nino, because of his 6-2 205 lbs frame that is built for bruising players and creating not only space for his teammates but also for himself. Much like the KO we have seen in the past month or two. This is integral to Nino's game and part of his power forward dynamic that allows him to ring someone along the boards, get the puck on the forecheck and open up the play. Again this is something we have seen in the past 6 games or so from Nino. There was a bit of scare with his concussion that he might go into hesitation mode again, but that has not been the case.

So we have here, speed, conditioning and physical play, all physical characteristics of a player, in which it is clear that Nino has improved upon. What we have next is how the Islander's have been using him and his confidence progression. To be clear, I think we all know what his skills are: great shot, quick release, puck handling, and physical play. The Islander staff has to be able to develop these skills to be used in the NHL so he can supplement two other forwards on the ice. He also has to learn to play the game at the NHL level and develop some two way skills, because there is always the threat of being scored upon and breakouts develop from the defensive and neutral zones.

Usage of a Kid for Whom the AHL is Not an Option

So how has Nino been used thus far:

In training camp we were seeing what we thought would be the top line for the Islanders in Matt Moulson, John Tavares and Nino Niederreiter. It looked like he was going to be the space creator and another go-to guy for John's perfect passes. In the preseason, he played in 6 games and had 2 goals and 2 assists, not amazing, but certainly inviting and a good sign he would stick with his teammates. Then came an injury and Nino was out and after a Bridgeport stint of the maximum 2 weeks he was back on the Islanders.

At this point we will never know if he was to start on the first line and given some top line minutes before it was deemed he would move down lines, but either way I think we can say going to Bridgeport for the two weeks was beneficial. I am a proponent that if he could legally be in the AHL he should be there. Regardless of how bad our team is, I would rather see young players stay down in the AHL to hone their skills at a slightly slower and less intense speed.

Back on the Islanders, Nino is now tossed on the 4th line with an ever-changing roster that consists of Trevor Gillies, Michael Haley, Jay Pandolfo, Marty Reasoner, David Ullstrom, Tim Wallace and Matt Martin. He played with all of them at some point. None of them are JT when it comes to play making, so we can forget about Nino getting great opportunities to score goals.

In juniors Ryan Johansen was his center and netted a ton of assists playing with Nino; there was even a post about Nino riding Johansen's coattails. So what is Nino gaining in experience from playing on the Islander's 4th line instead of playing in the WHL another season, and is it the right decision?

Yes, this is the right decision and ties directly into his development as an NHLer along with his newfound confidence that has people talking about line promotion.

We can look at Nino's first 4 games between his two injuries and generally we felt that 6-8 minutes a game on the 4th line was a waste as Nino was not hitting assignments, moving on the bad side of plus/minus, and looked a bit lost. He was not using his strengths regularly when in the offensive zone, and being on the 4th line with limited zonetime looked horrible on the back end of things. Not too many shots, lack in confidence, little physical play and very little cohesiveness with his linemates, which were churning around with injuries and scratches. Though he scored his first goal of the season off that great shot of his. That is what we like.But his next 8 to 10 games looked similar to what I just described.

Gaining Experience

Nino, however, was gaining experience; he was learning the speed of the game, receiving NHL coaching, practicing with an NHL team, and everything else that comes at the highest level in the world. So though his on ice production was dismal, there were still strides to be made.

Then came Wallace as a standard on the 4th line, followed by Reasoner's injuries and Pandolfo coming back to play thus the 4th line has seen a bit more stability. Though the line is still seeing minimal shifts and time, it is clear that Cappy has no problem rolling the 4 lines and relying on these guys to provide a spark and some offensive jump. Nino has been at the forefront finally showing us why he was drafted, albeit no production yet.

He has been physical, he has been getting shots off, and we have seen his improved few steps that let him get away from players to make plays. Nino has also been making it back to his own zone for defensive zone coverage's and has shown no problems with conditioning. This is good because he is learning the value of a 2 way game that he will be expected to play if wants to jump from the 4th to 3rd line. Josh Bailey, Matt Martin and Rolston see much tougher competition than the 4th line.

Realistic Expectations

I am honestly fine with the amount of minutes he is getting up to this point. It puts very little pressure on Nino and is allowing him to play his game freely, while still playing smart hockey. I think expectations were a bit too high coming into the season, but I think the Islanders have done well by keeping him up and playing him in his current role. I would keep him in this role for a bit longer and watch his learning curve jump, along with confidence and comfort level.

I think towards the end of the season depending on how the Islanders are doing, how the management feels about Rolston, and injuries, we will see Nino jump to the third line naturally. This will be big for Nino, it will show the confidence the coaching staff has in his abilities and I believe he will take it to the next level.

Another big body on the Bailey line will turn it into a very nice checking line with a center that can put the puck on a stick. Nino has the hands that Martin doesn't quite have to finish attempts. By the end of the year Nino will have a full NHL season under his belt, not looking out of place, and know even further what to work on in the off season. I doubt we will see him in the AHL next season.

Moving forward in the offseason, Nino will most likely attend a skating camp again, get even stronger, and jump into training camp with an attitude of breaking the top six.

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Great post just 2 corrections:

“Nino is now tossed on the 4th line with an ever-changing roster that consists of Clark Trevor Gillies, Michael Haley, Jay Pandolfo, Marty Reasoner, David Ullstrom, Mike Tim Wallace and Matt Martin. "

I do love how he is progressing, although you can’t see it on the scoresheet, he’s making strides.

What do you mean they won 4 cups in a row? Is that possible?

by OzzyFan on Jan 20, 2012 5:48 PM EST reply actions  

woops

Cannot believe I made that mistake on Gillies. Fixed them.

by ghalbart on Jan 20, 2012 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey ghalbart

Thanks for this, should make a fun Friday evening discussion so I front-paged it. As part of that, I had to remove the photo (we don’t have a license to it), so I hope you don’t mind. I also added some subheads just to break up the page; if you object, just delete or edit them as you need.

Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.

by Dominik on Jan 20, 2012 6:44 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

good deal

I really like Nino as a prospect/player and felt he was not really given too much credit, because of his draft status. It is definitely fun to really pay attention when he is on the ice, and since it is only about 8 minutes a game it can be easily analyzed. Thought it was time to spin some positive on his recent play, instead of saying he is up for his cap hit or if he should be playing in the WHL.

Yeah I figured on the photo and after all the SOPA stuff, I am fine with that, next time I will make sure to snag my own photo at a game from the rafters. Also thanks on dividing the paragraphs into sections, when I posted this it was a block of Ice dropping on the ground, thud. Or a cummins hitting 2nd gear.

by ghalbart on Jan 20, 2012 7:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Great look

I agree Nino’s been looking much better lately. It’s definitely a small group of games, but it’s noticeable. I’m fully prepared for a dry spell to come, but it’s been fun watching him progress and get more comfortable out there. I do hope he earns his way onto Bailey’s line at some point, though that might be rough on Bailey, especially if Ullstrom returns to that line as well. Either way I’m excited to see how he continues to improve the next few months.

by afrosupreme on Jan 20, 2012 6:55 PM EST reply actions  

I like his size and physical style...........

but I think we need lots of patience. I think the rest of this season will be a learning experience and not a scoring experience.

by hockeyhore on Jan 20, 2012 7:07 PM EST reply actions  

Exactly

Patience. Really what I was trying to emphasize with him. He will make small strides, really not too concerned with the scoring at this point, it will come. Developing his game for the NHL is really the most important thing right now. He has the attitude that he can make things happen and play big when it counts, as we have seen in his junior career.

by ghalbart on Jan 20, 2012 7:21 PM EST up reply actions  

+1 - Does Anyone Remember JT's Rookie Year Slump?

Nowadays, very few players step in and produce right away. To me, the biggest things for Nino are: (1) learning where he needs to be on the ice, both on offense and defense (his defensive positioning needs work, which is why we won’t see him on Bailey’s line any time too soon); and (2) confidence, which will allow him to make plays he’s capable of but is not making now.

by rmblifn on Jan 20, 2012 9:56 PM EST up reply actions  

As a very simple comparison...

(I know, it’s not the greatest comparison, but it’s right in front of us.)

Matt Martin is now 21 and just this season he is starting to play like he may be able to contribute top-9 minutes. That’s 3 years older than Nino. (And certainly not behind schedule for a power forward with Martin’s ability.)

Nino has more talent than Martin. We can already see it with his stick-handling and the strength in his wrist shots. But we’ve hardly seen a glimpse of what Nino can do in the NHL.

"The reader of this sentence exists only while reading me."

by North Dakota Red Eagle on Jan 21, 2012 12:09 AM EST up reply actions  

it is

a decent comparison, a little different style of play in terms of their physical presence and initial role, as Martin looked to take out everything that was on skates when he first came up. He also played as an overager (I believe) in the OHL. He has since last year though played a very game, while making very timely or smart hits. He crashed the net more than anything and uses his body along the boards, but lacks that upper skill that Nino has to make it into that top 6.

Watching Anders Lee last night playing, and being I believe 20/21 years old, he looked very much like a Martin Plus, which is a great thing for our bottom six. He is big, not afraid to use his body, and skates well but not fast. I think he might have a bit of advantage over Martin if he makes the jump next year to AHL as he is a bit older, and will have another year of seasoning in the AHL most likely before he sees time with the Islanders. I also say plus, because I believe he has a better set of hand and has good offensive instincts and makes quality decisions with the puck.

On the other hand, I never saw Martin play juniors, sooooo…..yea.

by ghalbart on Jan 21, 2012 6:10 AM EST up reply actions  

the problem with lee,

(who’s 21) is that he may never play a game for the islanders because he can use that loophole and become a free agent and sign with whoever he wants.

if lee keeps being a beast do you really think the penny pinching wang is going to be the one to offer him the most money? i’d actuialy be surprised if lee ever plays for the islanders

by ripcurl2121 on Jan 21, 2012 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

ELC's limit how much you can pay

So I highly doubt it will be about money if Lee elects to stay in college and become a free agent.

As with Gregoire, it will be about where he wants to be.

Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.

by Dominik on Jan 21, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

If Garth Wants Him, Lee Will Play for the Islanders

When has Garth ever not signed a draft pick he wanted based on money? And didn’t he get Tavares, Moulson, Grabner and Okposo re-signed at multiple years when every one thought that might be a problem? If they want him, Garth will sign Lee. End of story.

by rmblifn on Jan 22, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

martin is 22

but the point still applies because he is 3 years older than nino (nino is 19)

by ripcurl2121 on Jan 21, 2012 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

The only thing

I think Nino’s time in the pre-season with the first line is given too much thought. The team wants Nino to succeed, and since pre-season games are pointless, might as well line him up with JT and MM to see how good he could do. I think in the long run he was always going to be on one of the lower lines and slowly building up his time, much like Martin last year.

"Mark D: the internet's foremost chronicler of Milburian insanity" - Pretty Good Idiot
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.

by Mark D on Jan 20, 2012 7:40 PM EST reply actions  

I agree with that

I thought the preseason first-line looks were just to give him a run there as a status check — to observe where he’s deficient so they could tell him what he needs to work on.

I think it’s crazy to have promised him anything so soon, but I figure at some point they figured he was far enough along (or important enough? They seem to really want these kids under their own roof) where he would benefit in the long run. I’m over the decision to keep him though; now I’m just fascinated with the process and watching little things click in his head.

Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.

by Dominik on Jan 20, 2012 9:14 PM EST up reply actions  

A timeless debate

But certainly if there are little adjustments to be made when an NHL player debuts whether he’s 19 or 22, he should at least benefit by getting those things out of the way this year.

That said, I hope they don’t categorically rule out AHL time next season.

Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.

by Dominik on Jan 20, 2012 9:16 PM EST up reply actions  

This.

While I can only imagine the backlash with fans, I would absolutely agree with getting him top line minutes in the AHL next year as opposed to seeing him on the 3rd line up here.

by TA on Jan 21, 2012 12:09 AM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn't be against that

Letting Nino dominate in Bridgeport for at least part of next season may be a worthwhile thing to do. It allows him to apply what he’s learned this season in a more developmental environment. I don’t expect Nino being a top 6 guy with the Isles next season, so maybe the AHL would be best for him next season.

In my opinion, the AHL would’ve been the best for Nino this season, but unless changes are made to the NHL-CHL transfer agreement, I realize that it wasn’t really possible.

by Dougtone on Jan 21, 2012 5:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Agree

But more 3rd line time this season might make his chances of being with the big club next year more likely, so far he is not getting that, but if the winning continues than the coach will do what gets the wins and worry about next season’s decisions until training camp

by altosax on Jan 21, 2012 9:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Going back to the WHL really wasn't an option.

I watched Nino play live out in Portland in a playoff game. He just outgrew the game at that level. Most of the season tickets holders I spoke with knew it was time for him to move on. It sucks that he can’t go to the AHL but that is the rule. As long as management is patient with him he will do well. Hopefully the fans can be a little more patient and not expect too much from him this year.

by NHL fan on Jan 20, 2012 8:23 PM EST reply actions  

Wait

why can’t he go to the AHL?

by cnss84 on Jan 20, 2012 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

there is an agreement between the nhl and chl

If a junior eligible player is under 20, he has to play for his CHL team. You have to be 20 to play in the AHL

islanders hockey, making a sane person go insane during finals week

by DarthDoyle on Jan 20, 2012 8:29 PM EST up reply actions  

22 games in... 17 left?

at 40 games, i believe* it counts as one years service towards UFA.
that would mean 17 games left to 39 GP
at that point, 62 games into the season.

next decision would be do you need to scratch him for 20 games?
would missing an extra 20 games this year slow his development/experience if he didn’t reach 40 games this season?
i would prefer not to lose a year of RFA on such a young player in what seems like a lost season.

*i’m not a CBA guru, so my terminology may be off – but i believe the 40-game marker is his next plateau.

by noomz on Jan 20, 2012 9:43 PM EST reply actions  

I know what you're thinking, but I think it is actually just 11 games

This is in the Group 5 section, but I think it still applies:

For the purposes of the foregoing, the term “professional season” means (A) for a Player aged 18 or 19, mean any season in which such Player plays in eleven (11) or more Professional Games (including NHL Regular Season and Playoff Games, minor league regular season and playoff games, and games played in any European professional league, while under an SPC), and (B) for a Player aged 20 or older, mean any season in which such Player plays in one or more Professional Games…
Basically, if you take the normal draft-play-pro route, you’re a UFA at age 27 or after seven seasons, whichever comes first. So a Nino could play 10 games this season, his ELC could no longer “slide,” and when he played his next game he would have accrued season 1. (I think.)

The 40-game thing is in the definition of Accrued Seasons:

“Accrued Season” means any League Year during which a Player was on a Club’s Active Roster for 40 (30 if the Player is a goalie) or more Regular Season Games, provided that, for the purposes of calculating an Accrued Season under this Agreement, games missed due to a hockey-related injury incurred while on a Club’s Act ive Roster shall count as games played
I believe this definition keeps a team from doing precisely what you propose: Having a prospect on the active roster for half a season but not playing him. I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure Nino’s ship has sailed, his clock already ticking, so he’d reach UFA a year earlier than most prospects, and a year later than guys like JT and Bailey. (Pending the next CBA, of course.)

Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.

by Dominik on Jan 20, 2012 10:16 PM EST up reply actions  

He's not the only one!!!

I don’t know if Cappy is the right coach for a playoff team, but he seems to be a very good teacher with young players. From the point when Bozo i mean Cozo was tossed out like the trash he became, you could start to see Baily’s development. Although he isn’t lighting up the scoreboard, he has progressed steadily this year and he is now contributing every game and on most shifts even when he’s not creating scoring chances. I am now seeing the same development with Nino.

Everything I had read was that there was nothing more for Nino to learn in Jrs and since the AHL was not an option I really wanted Nino with the Isles. While I admit i got caught up in the summer dreaming of adding another 20 goal 40 pt beast of a kid to the lineup, my enthusiasm was not realistic. I think the injuries definitely set him back, but he really needed to adjust to the speed and physicality of the NHL.

Cappy is giving him sheltered minutes and it seems the work in practice is paying off, I think the kid can be great. I think once he starts to break through and notch a few in the belt (he’s too good not too), I would love to see them move him to a line with Pap. Nino has been a finisher and Pap is a great set up man, that can be a nice combo for a while.

Pap Frans Nino ?
Ulst Baily Nino ?

Also what is realistic expectations for next years production ?

by Best Thing Going on Jan 20, 2012 9:46 PM EST reply actions  

i would love..

To see Nino with PAP or BAILEY. He’s come a long way this year. He seems like he’s ready to take the next step. To bad Garth wont let Cappy put Rolston on the 4th line.

by The boogieman on Jan 20, 2012 10:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

To bad Garth wont let Cappy put Rolston on the 4th line.

Really now.

Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.

by Dominik on Jan 20, 2012 11:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Tavares is 10th in the NHL in points per game and is younger than everyone else in the top 12

Name Pts/Game
Evgeni Malkin 1.375
Claude Giroux 1.220
Steven Stamkos 1.133
Joffrey Lupul 1.109
Pavel Datsyuk 1.109
Henrik Sedin 1.106
Phil Kessel 1.087
Daniel Sedin 1.087
Marian Hossa 1.065
{John Tavares 1.022}
Jonathan Toews 1.021
Jason Spezza 1.020

Islanders 4 Winter Classic 2013

by Rybee824 on Jan 20, 2012 10:24 PM EST reply actions  

That Settles it....

He’s up to #27 under 25 now…..soon he’ll bust through!

by Nick (LetThereBeLighthouse) on Jan 20, 2012 11:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I gotta throw the monkey wrench in here...

The Islanders are 18-21-6, and for all intents and purposes a hair away from being eliminated from any realistic playoff chance. This is a team that had some playoff promise in 2010-11, but were plagued by injury. At the end of that season there were only a few hurdles to get over to get to legitimate playoff contender status. That would mean we would be 7th-10th in the east, and within 5 points of a playoff berth right now.
Okay.. here’s the wrench. Three decisions (or personnel fails) have put us there, because we’ve been relatively injury free (nothing above the norm).
1. The inability to improve the defensive depth from last year. The only real improvement was the return of Mark Streit and the maturation of travis Hamonic and Andrew Macdonald. The lack of depth has put too much pressure on Steit and macdonald in their period of recovery, and way too much pressure on the spare parts that have been filling secondary roles.
2. Brian rolston. Let’s face it, they thought they were getting the Jacques Lemaire Rolston, and what they got was the John Maclean Rolston… who helped put them out of playoff contention early last season. the fact that he is still in what should be considered a top 6 role with 4G and a $5M budget hit is laughable. But this is a decision made to get to the cap floor, while your team has a defensive corps that has to play Mike Mottau and Steve Staios on a nightly basis… and in important situations.
3. Ullstrom v Nino. In the pre season it was pretty clear who should have been with the team, and who should not have been. Ullstrom when back to the AHL and clearly dominated, and when promoted, had shown that he belonged in the NHL with an imediate (again, assuming stability) a top 6 role. Nino was barely able to handle fourth line assignments. There were clearly multiple NHL vet, and more NHL ready prospect or AHL vet options available.
4. to have the ELC clock start ticking for 20 games by mid season in a fourth line role is absolutely ridiculous on a team that is starved for NHL ready talent.

So…
If you are making your decisions based on the development of Nino you have a debatable case that keeping him in the NHL was a good one.
If you are making your decision on getting the NY Islanders to the playoffs in 2011-12, YOU WERE WRONG. CASE CLOSED!

This is why I’m not an NHL GM. My starting lineup on opening night:
Moulson-tavares-Parentau
Grabner-Nielsen-Okposo
Comeau-Bailey-Ullstrom
Martin-Reasoner-Haley
Hunter(healthy scratch)

Macdonald-hamonic
Streit-Jurcina(Staios is signed if Jurcina is injured)
Eaton-wishart
(Reese(healthy scratch)

Montoya/Nabby
Dipietro(healthy scratch)
No ex-devils to be seen anywhere… No Nino.

To be clear… I’m a HUGE NINO FAN. One of the better parts of LHH is that you can look back to my posting history. I was pro-nino before they drafted him, after they drafted him, and today. I would love it for him to score 15 from now thru April and help them get a playoff spot… but that’s not the reality of the situation. The team made a decision because of his CAP GAP. He clearly did not deserve the spot.

That being said, he has made good (if not excellent) progress as an NHL forward. But what happened was he helped redefined the NY Islanders as a developmental squad, rather than a legitimate NHL TEAM.

I've had enough! It's time to call out Garth Snow!
@JPinVA

by JPinVA on Jan 21, 2012 1:47 AM EST reply actions  

That would truely be a shame...

…and I wouldn’t mind losing one of them before the deadline if they could get an NHL ready defensive prospect, or a salary dump with some years left, and something remaining in the tank. But they have to sign at least one of them not to take a net step backwards going into next year. There’s nobody in the organization that could replace either of them (at their levels) inside two years.

I've had enough! It's time to call out Garth Snow!
@JPinVA

by JPinVA on Jan 21, 2012 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

totally agree

at least one of them needs to be resigned, if both, forwards could very well be fine for next year without any further acquistions…Ullstrom and Cizikas pushing for bottom 6 jobs, and Kabby, Strome, Nino, maybe Bailey, maybe a longshot for next year like Petrov or Nelson fighting for two offensive zone forward positions.

I’d also say, resign one of Montoya or Nabby if possible, but that isn’t as important as Frans and Pap. The D of course needs 3 new players. The team at some point needs to test guys like Dehaan (injured) and Donovan if they think these guys may fill one of the 3 job openings…I personally think Jurcina is too slow to play with Streit, and not good enough defensively to play on a 3rd pairing, defensive zone pairing….again though, if the resign Frans and Pap, this team is much closer to being a playoff team next year.

by CanadianIsleslifer on Jan 21, 2012 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

only other thought, this team doesn't need to worry about "veteran presence" up front anymore.

The vets are Moulson, Frans and Pap…to a lesser extent KO. It’s the defense that could use a solid, veteran defensive zone pairing.

by CanadianIsleslifer on Jan 21, 2012 6:19 PM EST up reply actions  

This is the key, massive point (one I assume they get)
There’s nobody in the organization that could replace either of them (at their levels) inside two years.

And on top of that, having them signed will return much more in potential trades than whatever their rental price is.

So if by some miracle the prospects charge up the chart and make either player surplus, THEN they’ll be in position to sell and save.

I figure they get this; they haven’t let anyone that of that level walk. Sutton, Bergenheim, Park, Hillen, none are in this class.

Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.

by Dominik on Jan 21, 2012 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

That would be a disaster

And the moment I’d lose patience. They really better not assume these kids can just step into the roles played by quality veterans in their late 20s.

Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.

by Dominik on Jan 21, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Right on

My case is brought up since Nino is here and creating an analysis since he is here. Normally 4th line players on a team do not bring up such debate, but in the case of a 19 year old 5th round draft pick, I thought it would be a good idea to bring up the positives of his being here.

I am no GM or Scout by any means and I would be lying if I watched anything but a few WinterHawk games during the playoffs Nino’s final season when he was returned to that team. So the debate of whether he should be here or not is not really the question but rather has his development since being here progressed.

I too, thought the line up would similar to something you just put up there, perhaps Nino in a top six role as well, but that was not the case and we have the cards we are dealt now. As you mention with the defense, it was clear there was no real upgrade there and basically the presumption that Streit and Amac would return to their former selves quickly. Well that was not the case and it took half a season, and unfortunately in that time we kicked ourselves out of the playoffs short of a hot hot run.

I do not think one player makes your team into developmental squad instead of a playoff contender, because we could make the case that he was not even playing for the first 2 weeks. Teams play rookies (19 – 21) year olds a lot, even teams with deep organizational depth such as Chicago, does not make them developmental, but giving an opportunity with young players. Yes, I know its very situational. But point being, the decision on Nino being here has less emphasis on us being a developmental squad then deciding not to make other changes to our line up (such as the D) had.

Again, was not here to talk about why Nino is here, rather the fact that he is here so lets take a look on where he came from, what he has done, and where he is going.

Good stuff here.

by ghalbart on Jan 21, 2012 6:02 AM EST up reply actions  

designation clarification...
I do not think one player makes your team into developmental squad instead of a playoff contender

What defines them as such is that a team chose to utilize a 19 year old who was CLEARLY not ready for the NHL instead of a 21 year old who was mainly because of his cap gap. Other teams do it because they have supporting talent… the Islanders have Jay Pandolfo and Marty Reasoner.
Their staff is also taxed with teaching every player (SUPERSTARS INCLUDED) with the second, third and fourth year NHL FORM. Why throw somebody who needs professional hockey 101 into that mix when you don’t have to.
All this is fine when you don’t have any options… but they did. What they lack, sometimes, is foresight and patience… and a compass strong enough to not make CAP GAP decisions.

But like you say, that is water under Bailey’s bridge… so let’s move on… AGAIN!

I've had enough! It's time to call out Garth Snow!
@JPinVA

by JPinVA on Jan 21, 2012 11:17 AM EST up reply actions  

I still don't buy the blanket assertion it was CAP GAP

I didn’t think it was the right move (esp. “promising” it in September or whenever), but there are too many other variables involved. The way this team treats its top picks, is it out of the question to think they truly believe having him under their roof is best? Add to that the eternal debate about “nothing more to learn in juniors” (which I don’t agree with, but plenty of people feel that way) and I think there could be several explanations.

Calvin de Haan could’ve been kept last year (instead of Mottau) or this year in part for CAP GAP but was given long looks and returned to juniors (then) and Bridgeport (now). The way they’ve treated their fourth line in recent years tells me they figured this kid would be a better 4th-liner or more after XX games than some of the others they’ve used. Doesn’t make it the right call, but does point to any number of reasons.

Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.

by Dominik on Jan 21, 2012 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Another possibility...........

like Bailey, nino might not have been the right pik [20/20 hindsight]

by altosax on Jan 21, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

that cannot be said for at least

4 years down the road. Would not be fair.

by ghalbart on Jan 21, 2012 6:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course that's possible

But it doesn’t really relate to why he’s on the roster right now.

Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.

by Dominik on Jan 21, 2012 11:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Sheltering/educating Nino

There is nothing wrong with transitioning a young player like Nino gradually into the NHL, by giving him fourth-line duties and minutes. It takes time to learn one’s craft, and serving an apprenticeship on the fourth line can take pressure off, while teaching the essential skills required in the profession.

But, it seems to me, the transitioning/sheltering could also be helped by giving Nino at least some PP time, especially in non-critical game situations. After all, he is expected to be a top-six forward/point producer eventually, and he has offensive talent that needs to be encouraged. On the PP, the game would be simplified, the defensive pressure reduced, and he could display his shot and net crashing ability to generate some offense. The goals and points he would get would only help his confidence.

by Gabor66 on Jan 21, 2012 4:18 AM EST reply actions  

Fourth line NHL spot...

is still an NHL spot.
Think of it this way…
If you take your car to a dealer because you’re brakes are failing, do you want an experienced machanic to look at them, and fix them… or the 19 year old who does the oil changes?
Your safety is a little more important than the islanders making the playoffs, but we were promised premium service… and we’ve paid for premium service with our loyalty and our entertainment dollars… and we get the 19 year old who sometimes forgets to bleed the master cylinder (I don’t think cars even have these anymore, and that’s why you don’t want old people working on your car either…ROLSTON, PANDOLFO, STAIOS).

It’s great that your dealer can get more cars done for less money… but they don’t pass those savings on to you… and it’s you’re daughter who creates a new Vinny’s Pizza drive thru when the brakes fail.

I've had enough! It's time to call out Garth Snow!
@JPinVA

by JPinVA on Jan 21, 2012 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

good analogy

yeah there are still master cylinders in cars, ask how I know……

by ghalbart on Jan 21, 2012 6:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Ice time

I can’t agree that the team is handling Nino’s development correctly at all. The basis of comparison should be to Ryan Johanson and Brett Connolly (the 4 and 6 picks that draft year). As of now Nino is getting 9:24 of ice time. Connolly is getting over 11 min TOI/game for a similarly situated team in Tampa. Johanson is getting 13:17 per game. Digging deeper I looked up first full year TOI for other past prospects: Bergenheim – 11:15; KO – 18:01; Bailey – 15:29; JT – 18:00; Grabner 15:05 (all according to ESPN.com). And one more, every one says we are taking the Tyler Seguin route of beginning with limited fourth line time since that worked out well for Boston and Seguin’s development. Seguin still got over 12 minutes a game of ice time. These numbers coupled with the fact that Rolston gets between 14 and 15 minutes are offensive and I can’t believe the team is going about this the correct way.
If he’s so in between the WHL and the NHL he should have been lent to the World Juniors and should be getting a dozen or so minutes a night, consistently. Also, the team has been pretty candid about his skating inability yet remains enamored with his finishing ability he absolutely needs to be on a line with someone who can carry the puck in the zone (PAP, Bailey, Franz), Wallace is a grinder and Pandolfo is, well, Pandolfo.

by Hounddog57 on Jan 21, 2012 3:06 PM EST reply actions  

Nino is being handled more like Joe Thornton or Seguin.

Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)

by TheMetalChick on Jan 21, 2012 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it's safe to say, Nino has "matured" a decent amount since the beginning of the season.

Early on, it was safe to say he was a sucky 4th liner that arguably didn’t even belong in the NHL, and that’s how I’d put it. Recently, Nino has looked like the best player on the 4th line, even though that’s not saying much. I know this is stating the obvious, but Pandolfo/Wallace bring Nino down offensively, and that’s Nino’s main game. Nino went from arguably the worst forward on the 4th line to arguably the best. I don’t have a problem with “rounding out” Nino’s game, but there comes a point where you have to consider promoting him to the 3rd line. I mean, Nino would I think unquestionably be more offensively productive then the “slow/safe/unproductive/shoot from a thousand feet away/play as cautious as he can to get by” Rolston. Yes, Rolston is a safe player, but obviously an underproductive 3rd liner. There comes a point when you say, is the gamble of Nino’s raw game worth the offense he should be able to bring to the 3rd line?? I think it’s safe to project Nino can score at least a few goals more than Rolston could in the 2nd half on that line. He has the hands, he has the shot, and he has the willingness to go to the dangerous areas to score goals, and Rolston just isn’t close to doing that. I even think Nino won’t be as big of a defensive liability on that line as we’d think (especially if Bailey plays D like he has been playing lately and Nino hustles like he has lately).

There has to be a “sooner than later” time where Cap experiments with Nino on the 3rd line for the good of the team. I’m not saying it’s a bulletproof plan, but Given how Nino has played and Rolston has played recently, it’s at minimum worth trying out for a handful of games. Because we all know, Nino is likely going to be starting in the top 9 next year, and it’s better to gauge what we have now and get him used to what he’s gonna be dealing with next year than just roll the dice early next year. For all we know, and it likely will, take time to for Nino to figure out the difference of competition playing against middle 6er’s is vs 4th liners.

What do you mean they won 4 cups in a row? Is that possible?

by OzzyFan on Jan 21, 2012 6:00 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I agree with this

No need to put Nino in a “sink or swim” situation like JT was inevitably thrown into as rookie, but instead Seguining him along as a 4th liner while he learns the ropes is the smarter option.

by MatthewM11 on Jan 21, 2012 9:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks. Welcome back! How's the dog treating you?

What do you mean they won 4 cups in a row? Is that possible?
"John Tavares(a top 10 forward in the NHL)"-Neil Greenberg

by OzzyFan on Jan 26, 2012 7:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Rec'

What do you mean they won 4 cups in a row? Is that possible?
"John Tavares(a top 10 forward in the NHL)"-Neil Greenberg

by OzzyFan on Jan 26, 2012 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

off the subject [somewhat]

I hope the handling of Nino does not end us up with another Bailey.

by altosax on Jan 23, 2012 4:11 PM EST reply actions  

It should also be kept in mind....

That there is a difference between “4th Line Minutes” and 4th Line Minutes on the New York Islanders. Would Nino be better off playing in the AHL with players he might actually play with down the road then 1 year cap floor rentals?

by djmNY711 on Jan 26, 2012 3:27 PM EST reply actions  

OR

Should you just promote him to the 3rd line? Baptism by fire, let him be raw and make mistakes, a ton of mistakes if need be! Let’s be honest Nino isn’t keeping the islanders out of the playoffs. Let him play through the bumps along with the other young guys (Ullstrom, Wallace, etc) and when the slip in the standings trade their draft pick? I don’t know to be honest as soon as I say “what good is a non-lottery pick in a year they don’t contend for the playoffs?” they are 4 games better this year then they were at this point last year so the rebuild is making progress. This is frustrating.

by djmNY711 on Jan 26, 2012 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  


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1979-80


May 24, 1980: Tonelli to Nystrom. At long last, the steady build of the New York Islanders from expansion doormat to surprise semifinalist to annual contender reaches the promised land: Buoyed by a late season trade for Butch Goring that gave the team the depth up the middle GM Bill Torrey had been seeking, the Islanders knock off the Philadelphia Flyers in six games.

The victory justified the faith in coach Al Arbour who guided them from their second season to their first Stanley Cup seven seasons later. The Islanders would not be the first expansion team to win the Stanley Cup, but they would be the only one capable of a dynasty.

1980-81


May 21, 1981: This time it was much easier. After falling to "only" 91 points in the 1979-80 season, the Islanders returned to their division title tradition, piling up 110 points -- a whole 13 points over second-place Philadelphia.

Between the quarterfinals (where they beat the upstart Oilers in six games) and the finals, the Islanders reeled off eight consecutive wins -- with a four-game sweep of archrival Rangers in between. As they defeated the Minnesota North Stars in five games for their second Cup, their goal difference in the final was a combined +10.

1981-82


May 16, 1982: Another year, another landslide title. The Islanders won the Patrick Division by a whopping 26 points over the second-place Rangers, and were seven points clear of their nearest competition for the President's Trophy, the still-not-quite-ripe Edmonton Oilers.

A first-round scare against the Pittsburgh Penguins turned in the Isles' favor thanks to John Tonelli's heroics, and a true dynasty was on its way: Past the Rangers in six games, then an eight-game sweep of the Quebec Nordiques and Vancouver Canucks to run away with the Stanley Cup.

1982-83


May 17, 1983: Not so fast, whipper-snappers. The Edmonton Oilers' steadily rising challenge for league supremacy took them all the way to the finals for the first time, where the New York Islanders summarily dispatched them in a four-game sweep. For the Islanders, the Dynasty was secured. For the Oilers, it was a powerful lesson in where talent ends and the demands of playoff hockey begin.

Four years, four Cups, 16 consecutive playoff series wins (a record that would grow to 19 until the rematch with the Oilers the following year). Mike Bossy scored 60 goals yet again, and Wayne Gretzky became acquainted with Billy Smith's crease.


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