Islanders vs. Capitals Gameday: 1993 Villain Behind the Bench
by Dominik on Jan 17, 2012 11:39 AM EST
in New York Islanders Previews
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PrintLife's too short and sport too frivolous to hold many grudges, but as an Islanders fan I do hang on to a few: So I hope the current Washington Capitals head coach fails in this endeavor and heads back to the OHL where I don't have to see his face.
Islanders (16-21-6, 14th/E) @ Capitals (24-17-2, 7th/E)
7 p.m. EST | MSG+ | Audio: NHL - WRHU
[Daddy, what's a 'phone booth?'] Center
Following Faust's Coach: Japers' Rink
That's probably lame of me, but it's got nothing on his cowardly act in 1993. I wish it could be undone, reversed like this video, but of course it can't. So 19 years later it still stands as the most spineless, jaw-dropping display of feeble-minded poor sportsmanship these eyes have seen on the ice: Something about an assault from behind, well after the whistle, as your emotionally incompetent way of handling losing (and a critical turnover) -- it just makes the stomach turn to this day. Shame.
Enough about that. I otherwise enjoy the Capitals and felt remorse (much like this) when the fleeting re-incarnation of the Patrick Division (plus the Carolina Whale) was foiled by CBA politics.
So the Isles meet the once-and-future(?) Patrick foes again, now with one of their franchise heroes behind the bench. If you've forgotten these teams' first meeting this season, it was back in the Bruce Boudreau era when the Islanders -- I am not making this up -- erased an early 2-0 deficit, scored four even strength goals overall and won the game 5-3 on P.A. Parenteau's late winner.
That was back when the Capitals had a 9-2 record. Since then, they've been to the depths and back. They're just a point behind first place Florida in the Patrick, Adams, Jet & Snowbird Division, and I know who I'm betting on to come out on top there.
(One more note about Patrick days: You know what I miss? I miss Tom Mees, R.I.P. And I miss hearing his voice saying, "the series continues at the Capital Centre in Landover, Maryland.")
The Capitals have won seven straight at home, Tomas Vokoun has won six straight at home -- they needed his 43 saves to squeak out a win over Carolina last time -- and here's one of many fun facts about their run:
[name redacted]'s club hasn't trailed at any point during the seven-game home win streak, outscoring opponents 21-8 during that stretch.
They're also 12-8-1 since firing Boudreau and installing the other mammal.
Islanders Lineup: Nabokov Starts, Reese In
After yesterday's game (or, as the joke goes, about six minutes into the first period), Kevin Poulin was returned to Bridgeport. It's a shame those early defensive breakdowns made his second appearance of the season anti-climactic, but this will keep him hungry. And remembering that he will be called on to bail out the gaffes of those in front of him.
As of last night the transactions did not list Al Montoya coming off IR from his concussion, but that seemed a formality. Newsday's Arthur Staple reports Evgeni Nabokov gets the start and Dylan Reese steps in for Steve Staios ("rest"). Tim Wallace lives on, but Bridgeport's winning streak features some other well-performing characters.
One thing I didn't mention about the last Islanders-Caps meeting: That was the first time Jack Capuano shook up the lines and put Parenteau with Frans Nielsen, who logged the second assist on PAP's winner. (This was during that six-game losing streak, the latter few where the chances were there but the finishing was not.)
Right now I don't see any break in Kyle Okposo's place next to the John Tavares-Matt Moulson duo, but you never know when we'll see more alterations with the other nine. (Also of note: It was Michael Grabner, not Okposo, who got the first non-Parenteau look there next to JT-MM.)
Capitals
One name not in the Caps lineup last time around: Dmitri Orlov, the 2009 55th overall pick who's now played 25 games and collected seven points from the blueline. There are a lot of guys selected in that round before him who have yet to make an impact. In related news, Mikko Koskinen is in Finland, but playing well at least.
It looked like they would still be without Nicklas Backstrom (concussion) and Mike Green (eternally nagging groin, which has now become abdominal surgery), who wasn't in the last meeting either.
The Capitals are still outshot overall 30.2 to 28.1 on average, but it would appear not so in the Fenwick close/tied category (50.51). Their powerplay is clicking at 19.7% (5th) by goals and ranks 13th by shots.
Any more ways to say this should be a challenge, one requiring no bone-headed early mistakes?
FIG Picks
Leave your First Islanders Goal picks in this thread. And keep it up: there's superstition, and then maybe there's karmic reward for the season-long winners.
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JT 10 In a row!!!!
Nabokov to shut out Ovechkin & Co & an Islanders Win!!! sounds like a good tuesday night to me.
3 Teams 3 Different Sports Same Torture!!!
by Kung Fu Panda 48 on Jan 17, 2012 12:01 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
Holy SHIT!
What’s tomorrow’s lotto #s?
"Seriously that's the last time you guys f#@%ing won?" -RSH (about beating the Penguins in '93)
Ah yes, Tom Mees
One of the few things I remember fondly about ESPN in the 80’s/90’s. Before the dark times…before the Empire.
by barry_hal_oliver_24 on Jan 17, 2012 12:03 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
I find your lack of coverage disturbing.
Yet another Moulson brother-in-law.
by ICanSeeForIslesAndIsles on Jan 17, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
rec'd for remembrin'
…the days of Australian Rules Football!
I've had enough! It's time to call out Garth Snow!
@JPinVA
And dog shows
And because I was 10 years old, I even liked berman’s schtick. Who knew, 30 years later, he would still be saying back….. back…. back…. back….. back……
Still waiting for a GOZO
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jan 17, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
back….. back…. back…. back….. back……and it's...
caught by the shortstop!
Deuce! There it is!
Ah the days when we wanted to watch ESPN. Not avoid it like the plague.
"He's depriving some small village of a pretty good idiot" - Mike Milbury on Ziggy Palffy's agent. On Twitter: @Dan_of_Science
Wow, outrage got a response! Anyone have "insider"?
"@ESPN_NHL: Why New York Islanders C John Tavares didn’t make Top 25 Under 25 list
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
by Keith Quinn on Jan 17, 2012 12:13 PM EST via mobile reply actions
The non-compatibility of twitter/SBN is starting to grate
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
by Keith Quinn on Jan 17, 2012 12:14 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Do I care that I swipped the whole article from ESPN?
No.
When my list of the 25 best players under 25 years old came out last Wednesday, as you would expect, there was some heated debate over some high profile names left off.
For example, despite their superb rookie campaigns, sophomores Tyler Seguin and Jeff Skinner were nowhere to be found, mostly because one season is not enough to convince me that they are destined for stardom.
Stars-in-the-making Jamie Benn and Matt Duchene were also absent, earning some ire in the comment field. However, the most noteworthy — and most criticized — omission was John Tavares of the New York Islanders.
Tavares, at 21 years old, leads the Islanders in scoring for the third straight year with 16 goals and 27 assists in 43 games this season, including a nine-game point streak. He also leads all Islanders’ forwards in time on ice per game (19:46) and was just selected to the 2011-12 All-Star team, his first appearance.
Bet you didn’t know that since the lockout only seven other skaters, in addition to Tavares, have amassed 160 points by age 21. Those seven are Jonathan Toews (No. 1 on my 25 under 25 list), Sidney Crosby (No. 2), Patrick Kane (No. 4), Steven Stamkos (No. 6), Anze Kopitar (No. 8), Alex Ovechkin and Evgeni Malkin.
Courtesy Neil GreenbergSo how can such a talented young player, who has accomplished so much in so little time, be left off a list of the 25 best players under 25 years old? Simple. His performance is not as impressive as it looks.
Offensively, there is no doubt Tavares is a gifted player and like most young players, he has been put in a position to succeed early in his career.
For instance, Tavares has routinely started in the offensive zone at even-strength more than 56 percent of the time in each of the past three years. Across the league, only 27 percent of forwards have been given such an extreme advantage in 2011-12. And it is valuable when it comes to scoring points; an extra offensive start per game could lead to 9-10 more points scored over the course of an 82-game season. That makes sense, as it’s a lot easier to put the puck in the net when starting from only 45 feet away than it is when starting in your own end.
2011-12 GP G A PTS CPI
Matt Moulson 43 21 19 40 5.4
P.A. Parenteau 43 7 30 37 4.8
John Tavares 43 16 27 43 4.7
In addition, despite scoring fewer points, both Moulson and Parenteau have a higher Clutch Performance Index. The CPI is a measurement I developed of how much a player contributes to his team’s victories. That Moulson and Parenteau outpace Tavares in CPI indicates their points have been more important than those their all-star teammate.
Moulson and Parenteau also have more success defensively. When he’s on the ice, Tavares has failed to tilt the ice in the Islanders’ favor (Corsi%) despite the favorable starting position. In other words, when Tavares is on the ice, more shots are aimed at the Islanders’ net than the opposition’s. And when he is not with his most frequent linemates (Matt Moulson, Pierre Parenteau and Kyle Okposo), it is even worse.
Corsi%
Since 2009-10 season With Tavares Tavares without Away from Tavares
Moulson 50% 45% 47%
Parenteau 48% 46% 52%
Okposo 46% 46% 50%
When Tavares is paired with Moulson, for example, there is an even split among shots directed at the opposition’s net and the Islanders’ own. When Tavares is without him, only 45 percent of shots go in Long Island’s favor. When Mouslon is away form Tavares, he too suffers a little, but not as much as (47 percent). Parenteau and Okposo, on the other hand, are better at driving puck possession when they are away from Tavares than they are with him.
This aspect also explains two other perceived snubs frequently mentioned in the comments section. It is not only Tavares who gets sheltered minutes; both Benn and Duchene have received them as well during their young careers. Each has been given a majority of their starts in the offensive zone (OffZ%), and while they have been stellar offensively, none have shown the ability to consistently drive play in their team’s favor.
Player Corsi% OffZ%
Jamie Benn 49% 58%
John Tavares 45% 56%
Matt Duchene 44% 53%
Being fed soft minutes (high offensive zone starts against non-top line competition) is a smart coaching move, one that puts your best players in a position to succeed. However, it is enough context to also keep you off my list in favor of a more seasoned player like Nashville forward Sergei Kostitsyn.
Kostitsyn may not have as flashy boxcar stats, but he has started in the offensive zone less than half the time, showing that what stats he has accumulated (140 points in 270 games plus another 13 points in 30 playoff games) have not been as easy to come by.
So you see, Tavares, Benn and Duchene are all fine skaters who puts up points. But that is partly due to being given advantages other players don’t get. And even with those advantages they don’t drive puck possession, which is why they were left off my 25 under 25 list.
One final hotly-debated selection I’d like to address. As for Tuukka Rask having such lofty position on my 25 under 25 (No. 5), here is some cumulative data since the start of the 2009-10 season. Which of them has multiple Vezinas and is a lock for the Hall of Fame and which is the backup?
2009-10 to present EV Sv% EV GAA PK Sv% PK GAA
Goalie A 0.935 2.00 0.889 5.67
Goalie B 0.936 2.09 0.899 5.94
It’s tough to say, isn’t it? There’s no significant difference between these two teammates, which is why Tuukka Rask (Goalie A) would be the number one starter on almost any other NHL team if not for Tim Thomas (Goalie B).
by barry_hal_oliver_24 on Jan 17, 2012 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
Mind you, putting any goalie on this list is preposterous due to how hard it is to determine goalies.
As for his Kostitsyn-Tavares argument, it’s close, but not nearly as determinative as he claims….Tavares’ Relative Corsi is high enough that, while he has favorable Zone-Starts, I don’t think that fully accounts for the gap between him and Kostitsyn.
Also, anyone who uses a stat called “Clutch Performance Index” needs to die. In a fire.
Writer at Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times
Pitchf/x enthusiast.
http://twitter.com/#!/garik16
by garik16 on Jan 17, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 9 recs
What is the corsi% he’s referring to?
And yeah, I love how he has this stat, “Clutch Performance Index,” but with no explanation of it, except that it measures your contribution to a victory.
by afrosupreme on Jan 17, 2012 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
Huh?
“Toronto’s Phil Kessel has more goals, Ottawa’s Erik Karlsson has more assists, and the Flyers’ Claude Giroux has more points — but Buffalo Sabres winger Tomas Vanek has been more valuable to his team where it counts: contributing to winning.”
yeah, sabres are kicking ass.
Still waiting for a GOZO
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jan 17, 2012 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You gotta read til the end, then it all makes sense....
"Toronto’s Phil Kessel has more goals, Ottawa’s Erik Karlsson has more assists, and the Flyers’ Claude Giroux has more points — but Buffalo Sabres winger Tomas Vanek has been more valuable to his team where it counts: contributing to winning," said Vanek’s agent.
With games in hand, the Sabres are 1 point better than the Islanders. 1.
by Les Beaver on Jan 17, 2012 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
But they've never won anything
And Vanek is great, nothing against him.
Still waiting for a GOZO
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jan 17, 2012 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
For clarification - on "Clutch Performance Index"
Essentially, what he’s calling CPI is the same stat known in baseball as “Win Probability Added.” Essentially we can measure the percentage change in a team’s chances of winning the game when certain events occur – so teams start with a 50% chance of winning, and say when they score a goal it goes up by a certain amount, depending upon how much time is left in the game.
WPA (or CPI here) essentially adds up all the win-probability changes caused by a player (so Tavares goals as positives, Tavares being on the ice for an opposing goal as a negative) and uses that to determine how much they’ve added to a team’s chance of victory. Essentially it’s a measure of how “clutch” players are (sort of).
Unfortunately, it’s essentially useless for making any determinations as to player value, or who the best player is. For the most part, players don’t start scoring more goals in the clutch than they do in other time, and thus WPA leaderboards fluctuate a good bit from year to year.
The stat has to be WORSE in hockey, since your ability to measure negative events is limited to basically “He was on the ice for a bad event” (other than causing a penalty).
Just crap. And he’s using it for this.
Writer at Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times
Pitchf/x enthusiast.
http://twitter.com/#!/garik16
by garik16 on Jan 17, 2012 12:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
CPI is like your grandma's cooking when she starts getting senile
She just throws some shit in a pan, stirs it together, and gives it to you, and you love her some much you choke it down. Except this guy ain’t grams.
Still waiting for a GOZO
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jan 17, 2012 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This guy couldn't wipe grandma's ass
Rec’d like gram’s bloomers!
"Seriously that's the last time you guys f#@%ing won?" -RSH (about beating the Penguins in '93)
Gotta respect for the amount of work he put in to reply (maybe not amount of work, but just that he put any work in) but also have to disagree...
The “Put in a good situation” argument is pretty funny when you consider how absolutely awful the Islanders have been since Tavares came on board. As garik said.. the CPI stat he uses is laughable b/c anyone who argues that Moulson and PAP don’t significantly advantage from JT being on their line probably never watches anything. Which is exactly what I think of this guy that wrote the article. You can hide behind your “advanced stats” all you want, but bottom line is that if you watch Tavares play the game of hockey, there is no question at all that he is one of the top 25 players under 25.
One point that I will agree with him (that he kind of alludes to, but not successfully enough imo) is about Tavares’ defensive liability at times. Gotta say, his defense struggled the first 2 years but wow has he made improvements this year. So to that point, I gotta agree but say that it is not updated as that is definitely not an issue.
Also to his point that Tavares is always on the ice at advantageous situations. The guy has to average close to 19-20 minutes a game. Surely, the New York Islanders are bound to be put in bad situations throughout the time that he is on the ice.
I appreciate that he took the time to respond.. and it looks like he at least tried to do the research, but to me it just seems that he doesn’t watch Tavares play.
by BaltimoreIslander on Jan 17, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
More importantly, he's using advanced stats POORLY.
Writer at Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times
Pitchf/x enthusiast.
http://twitter.com/#!/garik16
by garik16 on Jan 17, 2012 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Says it all.
it looks like he at least tried to do the research, but to me it just seems that he doesn’t watch Tavares play.
"He's depriving some small village of a pretty good idiot" - Mike Milbury on Ziggy Palffy's agent. On Twitter: @Dan_of_Science
by PGI on Jan 17, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
How many ESPN guys watch Isles play more than 5 times a season?
"The reader of this sentence exists only while reading me."
by North Dakota Red Eagle on Jan 17, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
Not really fair to this specific guy. He’s counting scoring chances for the Capitals (so that’s at least 82). He’s an online ESPN guy (some of the Hockey Prospectus people are as well), not a Burnside-type ESPN guy.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Jan 17, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
So if he does watch JT, and still thinks that?
Not possible.
Still waiting for a GOZO
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jan 17, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think it’s as simple as “watch the game.” If JT is great, it’ll show up in something very important to winning. (mind you, I did say I don’t understand how he’s not top-25. I just can see him near the bottom of the list)
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Jan 17, 2012 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
Anyone remember that post here in which someone looked at games with tracked scoring chances involving the Islanders and posted the results? Can you give a link?
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Jan 17, 2012 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
Of course it's as simple as watch the game
It’s obvious by his comments that he hasn’t watched JT much if any. And the fact he somehow believes being on the islanders helps him, shows how much he really knows.
I’m also willing to bet that it was only islanders fans who were telling him how wrong he is. I have a friend who likes the Stars that watches Isles games with me, and even he knows this guy is a clown. Of couse said clown also left Jamie Benn off the list. Another joke.
Still waiting for a GOZO
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jan 17, 2012 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
He watches plenty of hockey, and knows the game well.
He said something you don’t like about your guy, which I can understand why that irks you. But he’s not a bad guy. He is, in fact, a decent fellow and a real fan of hockey.
It is possible to both reach a conclusion with which you disagree and to have a genuine appreciation for the sport.
Peace.
Patron saint of quality footwear.
by fat_daddyo on Jan 17, 2012 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
there are a lot of fans of hockey
And they don’t deserve to have blogs.
Or at least have me not criticize insane thoughts. If he wants to put himself out there like that, prepared to be told you’re worng, when you’re wrong.
And boy, is he wrong. And boy, he doesn’t watch the isles.
Still waiting for a GOZO
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jan 17, 2012 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
And boy, is he wrong. And boy, he doesn’t watch the isles.
^ this is the problem. garik might not agree but stats do not tell the entire story…Then again his stats are pretty darn great
KO
But you don’t understand. JT doesn’t perform well from 12:51 of the 1st period through 12:51 of the 1st period.
Since he’s not that good right there, there is no way he can be top 25 under 25.
I rest my case.
Still waiting for a GOZO
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jan 17, 2012 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
And an interesting thought
You take away all of the empty netters and the “goal on the first shot” crap and how much different does he look?
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
I'd trade him straight up for Michal Neuvirth
Didn’t redarmy say he counts shots for the Caps? Which would make him a Caps fan? Just hunch.
Still waiting for a GOZO
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jan 17, 2012 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
What is there to gain by watching JT, exactly?
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Jan 17, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
lmao
Still waiting for a GOZO
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jan 17, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’m dead serious. You’re just assuming that there’s a whole lot of things Tavares does that won’t show up in the numbers Neil analyzed. I suspect they do. Only one way to find out.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Jan 17, 2012 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
I know you're serious
Still waiting for a GOZO
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jan 17, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
Also worth noting here that all “Top X” lists are to a significant extent spurious. It’s a team game. Kane plays on a great team. Tavares plays on a rebuilding team. It’s a team game. How do you make an apples-to-apples comparison?
The stats that Neil uses are the best way we’ve got at the moment, however.
And certainly more objective than the impressions of people (fans) who are emotionally invested in the success of one of their guys.
Patron saint of quality footwear.
by fat_daddyo on Jan 17, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Dude, he would be better off saying he was wrong and moving on
I would say 95 percent of hockey fans would have JT somewhere in the top 25.
Except people who never watch him or biased ones. You can defend him all you want, but he’s just wrong, and the people who know JT best and most any other hockey fan will say he’s wrong.
It’s okay. Hell, I was wrong once about 8 years ago. I dealt with it.
Still waiting for a GOZO
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jan 17, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
You keep saying that watching the Isle tells you that JT is a no-brainer on the Top 25 Under 25 list.
Who would you supplant from that list in favor of Tavares and why?
Patron saint of quality footwear.
Kostitsyn is an easy one. I haven’t seen the list, so I don’t know beyond that. I just do know there are a lot of young players in the league right now that are very, very, very good (especially D).
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Jan 17, 2012 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Without going deep into the stats
I would make the argument about
- Kessel (Great goal scorer sure, but there were knocks on his D and really not a PPG player until this season)
- Stewart (whose offensive stats look not so good this year)
- Varlamov (who looks to be a disaster this season and really only looked like he had one above average season)
- Berglund (who for 3 years had just a hair under a 60% OZone start and less on OZone finishes)
- Perron (only played 30 games over last two years)
- Little (just because)
- Kostityn (who doesn’t score a whole lot or drive play heavily)
- Neuvirth (not a lot of sample there…this year pretty poor)
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
by Keith Quinn on Jan 17, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And again, not off the list necessarily
moved around, some off, some up, some down, etc. Kessel has no business coming off…but to rank him above Doughty, Ryan and Lucic may not work.
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
Agree Keith. I just don't see how you sensibly leave JT off the list.
I don’t wanna say he is a nutswinger, but Neuvirth and Varlamov? Really? 2 washington product goalies. 1 goalie(varlamov) who in his career has 2 seasons finishing with backup start totals, a good season and a sub-par season, and his 1st full NHL starting season he is sucking(for lack of a better term). The other goalie(Neuvirth), has had 1 average starting season and 2 other mediocre to bad backup seasons.
This is hilarious that he’d name these 2. I can probably find almost a handful of young goalies under 25 with similar stats to these 2. Nutswinger list, and anyone arguing against it, the proof is written right above. "So in essence, this ranking is based more on the here and now than on future potential. " Really guy? This guy is a blatant nutswinger. No bias my ass.
But whatever. His list is not the almighty bible of hockey. But the thing is, when you make a list and are a national recognized sports “writer”, it’s kind of a good idea to take your bias out of stuff and do correct HW. Kostitsyn over JT? Did he compare their career stats? And don’t even talk defense, Kostitsyn is no defensive specialist by any means.
The thing is, I don’t know if he just forgot Tavares and left him off the list and is now covering his ass, or he really picked this guy over JT. What a mess. Don’t make the article if you can’t justify the means properly, even the response of misused stats and BS numbers (really? The zone starts percentage has that much effect on pts?) and reasonings(Duchene has been given soft minutes, it’s not somewhat coincidental he’s struggling this year.). What the heck?
What do you mean they won 4 cups in a row? Is that possible?
How about
If his skill generates quality scoring chances, how about looking at his on-ice shooting%? In 2009, 5th of 14, the next year 7th of 13, 2nd of 10 among Isles forwards, minimum 30 GP. Not bad, not elite.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Jan 17, 2012 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
It's higher than Oveckin's Semin's and Backstom's this year
Is he not elite?
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
by Keith Quinn on Jan 17, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
14th, 11th and 12th respectively
and you’d have to go back to 09/10 where all of those guys are ahead of him. Although, that year appears to be an outlier year (lucky) because it was the only year since BTN is tracking that all were over 12% (where 19 players were over 10%) rather than the usual mid 10.5 ish range.
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
Here's my take
The list is a little skewed toward players who are older for the age range. There is no one from JT’s draft class, and few from the one before. In essence the list leans HEAVILY in favor of accomplishment, rather than any sort of projected play, which almost automatically discounts very young players.
If you look here, you can see a pretty nice upward trajectory for Tavares, with him performing better even while facing some tougher competition. Additionally, the traditional stats tell us he’s doing more with the choice starts he’s being given. I don’t love holding offensive zone starts against a talented scorer, because that’s exactly what you want your coach to do, especially on a team like the Islanders that isn’t exactly brimming with scorers.
Basically, I’d argue Tavares’s first season really drags down his advanced statistics, and to an extent that would be my quarrel with the article. You’d hope players with more experience would have better Corsi #s. The difference in Tavares this year has been clear to us, but when you only look at the aggregate for his career, it doesn’t show up.
Wait
Are you implying that a player’s worth can be completely reduced to Corsi and offensive zone starts? Without any other metrics? That’s simply preposterous.
by brother_rat on Jan 17, 2012 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
The thing that Tavares is doing that won't show up in corsi necessarily
is his controlling the puck stickhandling and with corner work. I’m a believer in corsi, so don’t get me wrong here, but there have been a bunch of times lately that while he’s on the ice in the offensive zone, the Isles have completed a full line change.
The problem again becomes this defense that we have and often, the work isn’t rewarded with a scoring chance or a shot.
At this point (scoring numbers aside) we are looking a very little things that are starting to look like (blaphemy) Crosby with how strong he is on the puck and not getting knocked over…little “hands” moves through the oppositions feet…finding the open man with saucer passes etc.
I’m sure to some degree, we’re being homers, but you’ll see tonight I’m sure. He’s a different player than he was and he has the team on his back.
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
This is why I feel he has "generational talent"...
The kid can do it all…all he needs to do is work on his shot…
If it was Burnside
His rebuttal (if there was one) would be, “He plays for the Islanders. ’Nuff said.” Or, simply, a HAHAHAHAHAHA!
I wish I was kidding.
"He's depriving some small village of a pretty good idiot" - Mike Milbury on Ziggy Palffy's agent. On Twitter: @Dan_of_Science
by PGI on Jan 17, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
This is obvious...
Only Isles fans who watch him every day can appreciate the BEAST that JT is on every night he plays…He is usually the best player on the ice in every game for either team…This guy is an idiot
I disagree
There are plenty of fans of other teams that know how special he is.
I don’t know any Isles fans where i live, but the hockey fans I know know how good he is. I make sure they know, lol.
Still waiting for a GOZO
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jan 17, 2012 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
I hear ya.
There are true hockey fans who can appreciate more JT…But Isles fans have the luxury of watching this guy develop since he was drafted…Its been our pleasure…We are privileged to get to watch him play every night…One of the few pleasures of being an Isles fan…
Stole some of his twitter quotes from the HF boarsds
First one is my favorite.
“Tavares didn’t make it because even despite a favorable starting position he doesn’t drive play. @ESPN_NHL”
Someone said to him that Tavares makes everyone around him better. His response?
“By inflating their point totals, sure. But not puck possession, where it matters.”
“Agree he has made strides this year in the first half, however, doesn’t mean we ignore last two full seasons.”
“By what metric does he “dominates puck possession”? Give me facts, not “saw him good.”
Still waiting for a GOZO
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jan 17, 2012 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
JT assists on almost all of Mouls and KO's goals...
How does this guy get off saying its other players making JT better? That is the most telling thing that points out that he does not watch Tavares in action
by KO21 on Jan 17, 2012 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I know, when we all know how much better JT makes them
Although I think KO makes players around him better too.
Still waiting for a GOZO
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jan 17, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
You're right...KO is a huge help for JT...
He an upgrade over Paps…JT has been better since KO was added to his line…
KO Compass
KO helps that line more than PAP, but he gains from the relationship as well. Here’s why I think that is.
KO is a North-South player. He gets the puck and he moves in straight lines from zone to zone… no BS.
When he is moving into the offensive zone with the puck he makes good decisions, when he is without the puck he moves towards the net.
He is also a lot stronger WITH, and fighting for the puck.
These factors all lead to more offensive zone time… WITH POSSESSION.
PAP can dish if he has space and time. He has a good shot, but not overly accurate (maybe KO has the same problem). He is not the guy (between the two) I would want carrying the puck over the offensive blue line. He passes to open space too often and too dangerously. Kyle doesn’t stop when checked at teh line, he chips and chases… usually causing interference options.
I think PAP will be a better option on the RW for Ullstrom and Bailey, as they will be tasked more as a #2 line. They won’t be up against the shut down pairs, or third line defensively adept competition… PAP will have space to operate with a good playmaker like Bailey and a strong North South finisher like Ullstrom…
I've had enough! It's time to call out Garth Snow!
@JPinVA
Can we all agree that this guy is an ASS!
We, as a group, have probably seen every game that JT has played. There are very few that weren’t around during his rookie year, and every game since. We know the circumstances that have surrounded him since the second he was drafted.
HE HAS BEEN AWESOME… and he is getting better at being awesome every day.
F*** CORSI where it breathes. Watch the guy on the ice. Watch him win one on one battles. Watch him impose his will on other players. Watch his sense and vision.
He is 21 years old, on a moderately talented team. That team produces far more than it would if he was not on it. He is a 21YO MVP. That would have him on my league 25U25.
He may not be Crosby (out with concussion), Ovechkin(invisible), Stamkos(sinking in a very bouyant ship) or any other “generational” players, but he is the guy that makes you slide your ass closer to the edge of your seat when you see 26 or 21 on the ice… because you know that 91 must be coming soon… and that means you’ll be standing up soon.
I've had enough! It's time to call out Garth Snow!
@JPinVA
by JPinVA on Jan 17, 2012 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Come on, man
25. G Michal Neuvirth
Washington Capitals, 23 years old
Better that JT?
19. G Semyon Varlamov
Colorado Avalanche, 23 years old
22. C Bryan Little
Winnipeg Jets, 24 years old
????
Still waiting for a GOZO
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jan 17, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He's part of the Red Bull generation...
those other guys are all in the Pepsi generation. They’re all happy shiney people… I think we got ourselves a grundge-baby… The Eddie Vedder of hockey!
(Hopefully he’s not the Kurt Cobain of hockey)
or… maybe the Chris Cornell of hockey… We can only use this on Black Third uni nights… A song from our saviour, about his linemate…
we’re the Isles,
oh so low,
we’re the guys,
no one knows,
We’re on pace,
for last place,
Another year of my disgrace,
Empty seats,
Monkey wrench(Rolston),
‘neath the black,
the guys look gig,
Call my name,
I hear you scream,
And he’ll come to score again…
Black Moulson..won’t you come,
and end our hour of pain,
Black Moulson… won’t you come… won’t you come
I've had enough! It's time to call out Garth Snow!
@JPinVA
by JPinVA on Jan 17, 2012 4:58 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
This is the first thought that came through my mind when he said that JT is put a good position to succeed...
The "Put in a good situation" argument is pretty funny when you consider how absolutely awful the Islanders have been since Tavares came on board.
I'm sure it means situationally, which is a quite real factor
As in: When the Islanders have offensive situations (PP, O-zone faceoffs), he is put out there more often than not.
This is a reality of hockey, and of the offensive talents, but the great players will generate offense even starting in their own zone, diffusing opposition chances and creating their own before the shift is over.
That’s not saying JT isn’t starting to do that — in fact, his progress in this area is impressive over his first two seasons. (Those first two season, I’m sure, are what depressed him in the opiner’s eyes.) Just that different issues, such as how much Moulson and PAP helped JT before this year, shouldn’t be dismissed just because Tavares is sterling and in beast mode right now — at least not if you’re judging JT’s entire 2.5 year career as a cumulative whole, which it sounds like the writer is doing.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
Aren't the Sedin's like 70% + ?
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
I know they're really high
I’m thinking of them too — a lot of people say they’re a little overrated for this very reason.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
So it is all Capuano's fault JT isn't better.
See if Capuano would just waste JTs offense by having him start in the defensive zone he would be able to statistically prove that he could generate offense from defensive zone draws. If I were a coach, I would start my best defensive forward in the offensive zone, just to give them a little bit more help generating better numbers. Problem soled, hockey through advanced stats.
Come to think of it, take JT off the PP as well since those are easy offensive points and don’t prove anything. Any other player would put up equal numbers to JT if he had his PP minutes, because statistically, players on the PP put up more points than those that don’t play on the PP. We should never take into account that the reason people are on the PP or put in offensive sitations is becuase they are actually capabale of capitalizing on them.
LOL, touche
I’m just noting for clarity’s sake that “put in a situation to succeed” does not mean “is on a good team.” It’s purely meant to describe how he’s used.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
Clutch this
How about, Tavares scores more often…when others score, the isles have a buyer chance to win.
Additionally, when KO and PAP have not been with Tavares, they’ve been with Nielsen, and Grabs right? Two Corsi machines…so JT gets left off because his lineys are being put on a line with better Corsi?
I’d love to see how the rest of that “clutch” index is calculated, but I’m not paying good money to get dumber. There should be a response to this in print though…maybe we can work on this as a unit.
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
by Keith Quinn on Jan 17, 2012 12:41 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
In all honesty, I'd need to see his work on the rest of the top 25 to make a fair rebuttal.
Writer at Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times
Pitchf/x enthusiast.
http://twitter.com/#!/garik16
I really think he maybe forgot about JT.. saw the outrage and then searched for a reason to exclude him...
… with the players that fit his “logic” best.
As you said though, to be fair, you would need to see his argument for everyone. Especially since I remember when I first saw the article being like WTF from #’s 13-on or something like that.
by BaltimoreIslander on Jan 17, 2012 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Someone posted it the other day
http://www.lighthousehockey.com/2012/1/12/2702582/john-tavares-all-star#88461286
It’s in that story…posted by Maydog just under metzfan22 comment. Sorry, I don’t know how to link to get directly to a comment.
There are some clunkers on it.
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
by Keith Quinn on Jan 17, 2012 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
For what it's worth, using GVT
2011: Tavares 8.2, Kostitsyn 4.5
2010: Tavares 11.3, Kostitsyn 8.4
2009: Tavares 8.8, Kostitsyn 2.5 (half season)
Now I’m not a huge fan of GVT (my issues with its defense measurements are somewhat known), but hey, those are some close numbers! /sarcasm.
Writer at Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times
Pitchf/x enthusiast.
http://twitter.com/#!/garik16
by garik16 on Jan 17, 2012 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks.. okay so it was from 15-on.. not 13..
James Neal (toss up… but he gets the National Media bias so at least I understand why he’s there)..
These guys are better than Tavares…???
Marc-Edouard Vlasic (might be East Coast bias.. but just no), Chris Stewart, Alex Pietrangelo, Semyon Varlamov, Patrik Berglund, David Perron (honestly think he’s underrated here), Bryan Little, Kris Letang (he is so overrated), Sergei Kostitsyn, Michal Neuvirth
For those of you not counting at home there’s 4 St. Louis Blues’ players better than JT.. bias much? Finally, when the Blues are starting to turn it around….
by BaltimoreIslander on Jan 17, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
Wow.
Neuvirth of the .908 SV%? CLEARLY A GUY YOUD CONSIDER A TOP GOALIE!
Writer at Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times
Pitchf/x enthusiast.
http://twitter.com/#!/garik16
Same guy Washington realized they could not build a future around so went out and got Vokoun....
on that note.. Varlamov was one deemed expendable by the same Capitals team and they shipped him off to Colorado… good thing they are the top 25 under 25 though…
(not to rehash the old article as it was beaten to a pulp in that last thread)
by BaltimoreIslander on Jan 17, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Not exactly the course of events. They were going to go into this season with Neuvirth/Holtby, and then Vokoun called them up and said “hey, I want to sign with you.”
Regarding Varlamov, nothing definitive from management, but rumor was he’d go to the KHL if he weren’t the starter for sure.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Jan 17, 2012 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
Vlasic is a stud, Pietrangelo is great, Letang is Norris-worthy. Don’t think you’re being fair there. (for what it’s worth, he was pumping up the Blues even last season—their Corsi numbers were fantastic, but Halak was one of the worst goalies in the league, somehow)
I can sort of see the argument for keeping Tavares out of the top—the two years before this one, the Islanders had a better plus minus per sixty without Tavares on ice than with him, and that was with Tavares’ privileged situations—but I don’t see the justification over Kostitsyn. Even looking at the same numbers he’s looking at.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Jan 17, 2012 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
You want to argue Neuvirth?
(Cmon, you know you want to :-P – okay no you don’t)
Writer at Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times
Pitchf/x enthusiast.
http://twitter.com/#!/garik16
by garik16 on Jan 17, 2012 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think Neuvirth is fine, but a league-average goalie doesn’t belong on that list, I think. Rask and Price should be the only goalies on there.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Jan 17, 2012 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
Not so much quibbling with any one of them in particular being there
just not instead of Tavares. Here’s the big question, in a 1:1 trade, who on that list wouldn’t you trade to get Tavares? Like 3-5 of them? He’s also 21 and has already done more than quite a few of them…likely to get better, and rarely (sacrifices chicken, goat, virgin) misses a game. (Doughty (22) and Stamkos (21) only others under 23)
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
I don't think he's taking age into account.
It seems to be best players now who are currently 25 or under.
Writer at Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times
Pitchf/x enthusiast.
http://twitter.com/#!/garik16
Yeah, I know
I just think the point either way is that he’s as good or better than a lot of those players already.
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
by Keith Quinn on Jan 17, 2012 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This would be the first time in history a media bias would favor the Blues
Not sure how Berglund got on there. Or Stewart, really. But Pietrangelo definitely and maybe Perron (depending on head) and Oshie (same, only in a different way).
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
Wait a minute?
Blues have 5 Tavareses? Pack my bags. I’m switching to Dom’s other team.
"The reader of this sentence exists only while reading me."
by North Dakota Red Eagle on Jan 17, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You just like to be set up for soul-crushing disappointment
(Oh and just to be clear, I wasn’t taking those guys over Tavares, but buying three of them for consideration in a 25U25. Pietrangelo definitely.)
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
That's how they pull you in
If I may pull out the script: Stunning goaltender collapse in playoff loss 1 or 2, followed by inexplicable and uncharacteristic mistakes by the team in loss 3 or 4, followed by public shaming of the goaltender, who will be given another year to save his rep before full on crucifixion is enacted.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
Oh, I thought there were 5 on the under-25 list. I misunderstood.
"The reader of this sentence exists only while reading me."
by North Dakota Red Eagle on Jan 17, 2012 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
FYI
If you right click on the date of the comment, and choose copy link location, it gives you the direct link for the comment.
by afrosupreme on Jan 17, 2012 1:05 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
You're a beautiful human being!
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
LHH loop-de-loop
I wonder how this will work.
I've had enough! It's time to call out Garth Snow!
@JPinVA
by JPinVA on Jan 17, 2012 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Besides, Tavares isn't clutch...
…he’s automatic.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
by Dominik on Jan 17, 2012 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
Haha
I stopped reading the article once I saw the CPI. That’s gotta be a bullshit stat.
Official choice of Lighthouse Dog #1.
The stat he created mind you
I wonder what a team would look like if you took the top 23 players in “CPI” and put them on a team. Is there a CPI sortable list? What is the minimum GP to be considered for CPI…or “events”. What happens if your line never scores, but when they do, it’s at a key moment in the game?
Already, his Vanek over Kessel, Giroux and Karlsson thing looks pretty dopey.
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
I don't understand why they are using corsi since 2009
He is a completely different player 2 years out. It’s not the top 25 under 25 as of 2009 it’s as of today.
No Sleep 'til....We Find Some Secondary Scoring
Yeah, I’m a little confused. I can understand increasing the sample size, but most players improve leaps and bounds every year from 18-25 or so.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Jan 17, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
If I recall right
There was something in the original about considering their "whole history’ and all that, which is sort of odd if you’re not subsequently narrowing it to age 22-25 or something. But I haven’t paid much attention to this, admittedly.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
To me it looks like shoe horning the stats to make his point
He uses the clutch index thingy for just this season but then Corsi over the last 3 years. And of course zone starts are offense skewed when going back to 09; any team is going to protect a kid who has never played above junior level. I’m sure his zone starts have gotten harder in the last two years. Also he doesn’t go in to detail about why at least 25 other players are better. He brings up one guy and it is solely on zone start %. It just feels like he has an opinion coming in and finds the stats to back it rather than putting together a list based on the stats themselves.
No Sleep 'til....We Find Some Secondary Scoring
And of course zone starts are offense skewed when going back to 09;
we had Konopka for that
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
by Keith Quinn on Jan 17, 2012 4:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Not a moneypuck expert, but...
“Across the league, only 27 percent of forwards have been given such an extreme advantage in 2011-12.”
27% would be about the rest of the first liners in the NHL, no?
by Dorfer on Jan 17, 2012 10:13 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Depends
on whether he is counting D men or not…but even still, I guess if you were counting a first line and first D pairing, yeah, about that.
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
by Keith Quinn on Jan 18, 2012 12:02 AM EST up reply actions
Bingo
That’s the problem here. You can’t watch an Isles game in the past two months without coming away thinking that JT is among the best, if not the best, player on the ice. He’s a totally different player than the last two seasons. We know that. We know 2 and even sometimes 3 defenders are chasing him around, creating all kinds of opportunities for others. We see the incredible passing creativity that is so much better than advertised. We see him beating top-line defenders on rushes. None of that was happening in the past two seasons, so if you make a list of the top 25 players under 25 spanning the past 28 months or so, I guess that could hold water. But, joyfully, and without reservation, I can say that in 2011-2012 JT gives ground to no one on any such list.
that kind of crap right here is why I say screw stats
And judge with your eyes. How many times do you think this clown watched JT play?
Still waiting for a GOZO
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jan 17, 2012 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
Well...
It’s more like “screw made-up stats that fit my argument”, not screw stats overall.
Official choice of Lighthouse Dog #1.
by Fabtraption on Jan 17, 2012 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No, not for me,
Wins and losses. IMO, stats are for people who don’t watch and for fantasy purposes.
Me, I just like to watch and judge.
Still waiting for a GOZO
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jan 17, 2012 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe here I should point out that you can come to different conclusions looking at the same stats. I still can’t understand the Kostitsyn one (unless he was looking at Andrei’s stats instead of Sergei’s).
As I mentioned above, the fact that the two years prior to this one the Islanders had a better goal ratio without JT on the ice than with him (5v5 only) reflects extremely poorly on him. That’s different this season, but still, he’s only even while on the ice.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Jan 17, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
"Kostitsyn"
Great player. i watch the Preds all the time.
He’s not JT. You probably could find a better place to stick up for this writer than here man.
Still waiting for a GOZO
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jan 17, 2012 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
I guess
but that was his rookie (18 year old) year. I mean, I would have to imagine that a great deal of these guys looked that bad in their first year. I mean, Seguin was buried on the 4th line (albeit on a very strong team), Stamkos was limited.
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
Anyone can dicate and play statistics
.. and of course, it’s his list, his opinion. I’d be very curious to see if he polled 10 GMs to make up the same list just how different it would be… because I think it’d be very, very different.
It just seems completely ridiculous to have a 25 and under list and then turn around and say “these really outstandingly talented kids haven’t played enough to make it.”
But hey, it’s ESPN… so I wonder why I even care enough to have thoughts about it, let alone share them.
by TA on Jan 17, 2012 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
great point
writing something worthwhile for espn’s hockey blog isn’t what they want, people who want real hockey talk go to tsn or thn, but if you leave off a few key guys then it sparks animosity, and gets people to comment, and drives revenues
These comments crawl up from the depths of the deepest Chasm of Saar
There is so much wrong with this post, and I wish Garik had ripped it apart, but I'll throw some BS flags up:
“However, the most noteworthy — and most criticized — omission was John Tavares of the New York Islanders.”=This is because most of the NHL fans in the world disagree with you, and I guarantee you that most of the people saying this aren’t just isles fans, they are hockey fans that know what JT has done and what he will become since joining a “cap floor” and worst overall NHL team “in his rookie year” till now.
“Bet you didn’t know that since the lockout only seven other skaters, in addition to Tavares, have amassed 160 points by age 21. Those seven are Jonathan Toews (No. 1 on my 25 under 25 list), Sidney Crosby (No. 2), Patrick Kane (No. 4), Steven Stamkos (No. 6), Anze Kopitar (No. 8), Alex Ovechkin and Evgeni Malkin.”= Thanks for clarifying he is an elite offensive talent and likely on the verge of offensive superstardom.
“His performance is not as impressive as it looks.”=So stats lie? You are saying.
“Offensively, there is no doubt Tavares is a gifted player and like most young players, he has been put in a position to succeed early in his career.”=If you consider being thrown on a line as a rookie with another rookie and 1yr vet okposo is a position to succeed sure. Or how about the next year being combo’d with an inconsistent scorer(comeau) and another rookie(PAP) alongside moulson? Or how about, being given 3rd line competition in your rookie year and 1st line competition in your 2nd nhl year? Or how about,
“For instance, Tavares has routinely started in the offensive zone at even-strength more than 56 percent of the time in each of the past three years. Across the league, only 27 percent of forwards have been given such an extreme advantage in 2011-12.”=So your saying over a 1/4 of the league is given an “extreme advantage” to score offensively? Do you hear yourself talk? That’s utter BS. He is an offensive forward, and he is being used like one, as are over a 1/4 of the forwards in the NHL being used like this. 27% isn’t small, what is this guy smoking? And 27% of forwards isn’t an “extreme” advantage, it’s a marginal one. If he was in the top 5-10% of o-zone starts, sure, that’s extreme, but upper 27th percentile isn’t anything to say “OMG” exteme o-zone starts. Way to twist stats there.
“And it is valuable when it comes to scoring points; an extra offensive start per game could lead to 9-10 more points scored over the course of an 82-game season. That makes sense, as it’s a lot easier to put the puck in the net when starting from only 45 feet away than it is when starting in your own end.”= So 82 extra offensive zone starts per year is supposed to equal=10pts more per year? So by this math last year, Henrik Sedin’s stats are inflated by 40pts and Daniel Sedin’s stats are inflated by 50 pts, meaning, in JT zone starts, they are 60pt forwards last year. What a crock of BS your ratio is. Nice way to play with numbers to have them work to prove your point, even though they are complete BS. Why not make some more formulas out of nowhere?
"In addition, despite scoring fewer points, both Moulson and Parenteau have a higher Clutch Performance Index. The CPI is a measurement I developed of how much a player contributes to his team’s victories. That Moulson and Parenteau outpace Tavares in CPI indicates their points have been more important than those their all-star teammate."= CPI is one of the most worthless stats known to hockey. Great job of using a BS stat to prove your point.
"Moulson and Parenteau also have more success defensively. When he’s on the ice, Tavares has failed to tilt the ice in the Islanders’ favor (Corsi%) despite the favorable starting position. In other words, when Tavares is on the ice, more shots are aimed at the Islanders’ net than the opposition’s. And when he is not with his most frequent linemates (Matt Moulson, Pierre Parenteau and Kyle Okposo), it is even worse."=Congrats on finding out that JT was a sub-par defensive forward in his 2nd nhl season against "TOP LINE COMPETITION". His defensive weakness was overstated last year, as obvious by his corsi numbers last year and PAP/Moulson’s comparable corsi numbers with similar o-zone starts and similar quality of competition.
"This aspect also explains two other perceived snubs frequently mentioned in the comments section. It is not only Tavares who gets sheltered minutes; both Benn and Duchene have received them as well during their young careers. Each has been given a majority of their starts in the offensive zone (OffZ%), and while they have been stellar offensively, none have shown the ability to consistently drive play in their team’s favor."=JT played against "TOP LINE COMPETITION" last year. Duchene played against 2nd line competition last year and Benn played against borderline 2nd/3rd line competition last year. Why don’t you talk about the different factors RelQofC/line compeition has on point production and corsi %’s/numbers???? Why, because it disagrees with you. Minor differences in o-zone start percentages means nothing in comparison to your line playing against the Giroux line instead of the Briere line or in some extremes, the Getzlaf line instead of the Koivu line.
"Being fed soft minutes (high offensive zone starts against non-top line competition) is a smart coaching move, one that puts your best players in a position to succeed.."= NO, JT played against top line competition last year, do your HW. And top 27% in o-zone starts isn’t "high" o-zone starts. You consider 55% high o-zone starts? That’s above average no question, but high o-zone starts? No. Way to play with words. And that o-zone start thing is something a lot of coaches do to their best offensive players.
"However, it is enough context to also keep you off my list in favor of a more seasoned player like Nashville forward Sergei Kostitsyn."=So your BS reason, is enough to warrant Kostitsyn: a player with 67 more GP/almost a season, 11 less goals, and 23pts less while playing against weaker competition(high 3rd line competition vs JT’s top line competition last year, and has never played higher then middle 6 competition in his career). And shouldn’t more seasoned=more mature? So JT had a better season last year than Kostitsyn while being 3yrs younger then him and 2yrs less seasoned and against noticeably tougher competition, but isn’t better than him? Your math is terrible, your stat us is bad, and your reasoning is horrible.
"Kostitsyn may not have as flashy boxcar stats, but he has started in the offensive zone less than half the time, showing that what stats he has accumulated (140 points in 270 games plus another 13 points in 30 playoff games) have not been as easy to come by."=6% less o-zone starts isn’t "half" the time is exactly, it’s only half the time when you realize Kostitsyn had half the faceoffs that JT had last year because he was on a worse line and wasn’t a top 6 forward on the Preds last year. He played on the Goc line and he played against "high 3rd line competition". Ultimately, a 3rd line role, aka Bailey. You know what JT would do against Bailey competition? Kostitsyn wasn’t even the best player on his line last year(Erat was), and he wasn’t the best defensive player either on his line (Goc). JT was the unquestionably best offensive player on his line last year and he’s moving up the spectrum defensively, against tougher competition. This is getting a bit rediculous just reading it as I write it out. The comparison isn’t near as close as this guy is making it out to be (although closer than I thought, but still not even worth debating).
"So you see, Tavares, Benn and Duchene are all fine skaters who puts up points. But that is partly due to being given advantages other players don’t get. And even with those advantages they don’t drive puck possession, which is why they were left off my 25 under 25 list." = As I wrote above, Benn and Duchene aren’t in the same league as JT right now. They face weaker competition, put up worse numbers offensively and corsi wise, and Duchene is struggling his ass off. Benn played against 3rd line competition last year and had even higher o-zone start percentage then JT last year. JT doesn’t drive possession? Look at his pts, his goals, his 1st assists. Don’t spout BS.
What do you mean they won 4 cups in a row? Is that possible?
by OzzyFan on Jan 17, 2012 7:56 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
This is beautiful
Thanks, Ozzy.
"He's depriving some small village of a pretty good idiot" - Mike Milbury on Ziggy Palffy's agent. On Twitter: @Dan_of_Science
I think this article is a little silly
who cares? of course your top offensive guys are going to see the most offensive zone starts, thats under their job discription. the guys who get the most defensive zone starts have a different job, requiring different skills, that pays a different salary. Guys like Grabner and Neilson excel in that “bottom 6” or “3rd line role” or whatever you want to call it. All this data really tells me is the Isles need to resign Frans, which will mean their defensive zone starts will be dominated by Martin, Neilson, Grabner, Ullstrom, Bailey, Reasoner, Casikas…
And if they resign Pap, hopefully two of the prospects will be ready to be a second offensive zone line with Pap (not a second line per say, but second offensive zone line), playing being Moulson, Tavares and Okposo, then the Isles have a very competitive forward unit. The team still needs another offensive D to skate and play with Streit as an offensive and neutral zone pairing (maybe Donovan) and a new, dependable “3rd pairing D”, a solid defensive pair to play primarily in the defensive zone and neutral zone a bit, but never offensive zone.
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jan 18, 2012 2:35 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm setting to my alarm to remind me to go back to this article in 5 years and reply:
LOL like a million times.
What a joke of an explanation too. “LOTS AND NUMBERS AND STATS THAT I DON’T REALLY UNDERSTAND SUPPORT MY FLAWED ARGUMENT!”
by Les Beaver on Jan 17, 2012 1:30 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
It's easy to understand, guys:
John Tavares has an ADVANTAGE over other hockey players because he plays on the Islanders.
What is so hard to understand about that?
(shoots myself in the head)
Being born in New York and rooting for the Islanders, Jets, and Mets. Yeah, I know.
Twitter: cmauceri524
by CharlieIsles on Jan 17, 2012 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I remember the Hunter hit like it was yesterday
I was at some friend’s Bar Mitzvah—yes, a rare Friday night BM—and by the end of the night, most of the boys had filtered out of the reception room to watch the game on a TV at the bar….never had such a positive to negative emotional swing in my life to that point, and perhaps not since. The crowd surged, preteens hugged barflies, and then the kids skulked back to the party teary-eyed in time to hear Donna Summer close it out.
I’ve thought about what I’d do if I ever ran into Dale Hunter on the street many, many times, and I have to say that now, as a sober-minded adult bound by an code of professional ethics, with integrity and an unfailing respect for the law, I’d probably still react instinctively and try to spit on him. And I’d aim for the face. And then yell at him. Irrational, sure, and petty and childish, and I’d probably have to run away, but so be it.
It’s funny, I have a few transplant HS friends now in DC (who from LI doesn’t, right?) who were Isles fans but who’ve adopted the Caps since their move down, and they all swore the team off while Hunter is behind the bench. A beautiful thing.
I have to say that now, as a sober-minded adult bound by an code of professional ethics, with integrity and an unfailing respect for the law, I’d probably still react instinctively and try to spit on him.
Haha, nicely phrased. And the transplants’ swearing off is impressive.
I was in my living room, and I vividly remember the mix of rage and outright shock. I know this is prone to hyperbole because of the sporting significance for those playoffs, but I’m serious when I say to this day it’s really hard to get my head around, or think of something worse on the ice given the delayed reaction. Even other brutal attacks took place during battle or with the victim having some idea he was being pursued, or even as an instant reaction (e.g. “Score – crosscheck” not “Score … OMG we lost … OMG it’s my fault, OMG I’m gonna go hit that guy.”). This was the ultimate act of a 4-year-old mind, entrusted with all kinds of leeway as a professional athlete yet still abusing it in an unthinkable way.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
I've mentioned this before
That hit made Dale Hunter the patron saint of sore losers. In that regard, I’ve never seen anything worse. You’d yell at your 2-year-old for doing that.
And this is as bad an elbow (at least an elbow during the play) as you'll ever see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vyhbdz14U8
"The reader of this sentence exists only while reading me."
by North Dakota Red Eagle on Jan 17, 2012 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
So nice to hear Clement tell it like it is
Thanks for revitalizing my hatred of him. The fact that he’s in the game now says so much about the NHL
by BobSulli on Jan 18, 2012 1:54 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
But but but
He's such a COMPETITOR.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
I was at the game and also remember it like it was yesterday also
I didn’t see the hit as I was revelling in Hunter’s goal, then I hear my brother next to me say WTF! That’s F-ing horseshit! as he points down to a sprawled Turgeon. It felt like the air was sucked out of the whole building. Remember thinking the next day we’re never gonna beat the Pen’s without/with an injured Pierre…..so spit in the face / a hard kick in the nuts is entirely acceptable if you ask me. Dom’s right, in the sport of hockey that’s the defining “gutless” moment.
The NHL is lawless..
Why is this guy allowed to be associated with the league after he clearly assaulted another player? Why didnt PT press criminal charges on the scum bag?
Good point
But perhaps Pierre extended his gentlemanly, Lady Byng spirit to not pressing criminal charges or pursuing civil litigation. I wonder if Denis Dillon ever looked into that…
Its a disgrace isn't it?
Hunter shouldnt be allowed to associate with the NHL…The same goes for Burtuzzi
Yeah, absolute disgrace
His vicious, shameful act doesn’t seem to follow him around. I mean, everyone mentions Bertuzzi, and I’m embarrassed when Rags fans bring up Chris Simon’s Giami crack at Ryan Hollweg, but Dale Hunter’s rosy reputation w/ Caps fans hasn’t changed apparently. His number’s retired, for chrissake.
That same # was worn by
a famous running back on the Bills. Coincidence? I think not.
He’s a legend with the Caps, there’s no doubt about it. He was tough player who helped the franchise climb out of the dregs of the League and into semi-respectability.
The Turgeon incident is undoubtedly the lowest point in his career. He paid the price for it, too.
Is it possible to rise above one regrettable act?
Patron saint of quality footwear.
Hmmm
I guess it’s possible, but understand that Turgeon was our Ovechkin. How does that go down in the inverse? For instance, if Ovechkin tomorrow was crushed three seconds after scoring a goal and was never the same.
The unfortunate part for Hunter on the Isles aspect is that it started a snowballing of events that the team is only beginning to recover from now. Hunter is the face of that. The opening salvo of 20 years of horrendous decisions and awful hockey.
So, warranted or not 20 years later, I doubt that will change.
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
by Keith Quinn on Jan 17, 2012 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, I hear you. It was a brutal cheap shot and if the shoe were on the other foot I might not be ready to let go.
I’m sure someone will ask him about it within the next 24 hours, and I’ll be interested to hear what he has to say.
Patron saint of quality footwear.
I’ll be interested to hear what he has to say.
He’s capable of speech? Or does the team employ a translator of grunts and hand motions?
by afrosupreme on Jan 17, 2012 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Heh. He’s not the most loquacious guy on the planet, that is true. Lots of ’ums", “you knows” and cliches.
I’m betting he says that he regrets it and wishes it hadn’t happened and hopes we can all move on.
Patron saint of quality footwear.
He says that he "didnt know play had stopped".
Which is a ridiculous load of shit since Pierre had his arms up and was already celebrating the goal. He knew it, he is just a SCUMBAG.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Jan 17, 2012 11:06 PM EST up reply actions
All those raised sticks
the cheering and the goal horn didn’t give it away huh?
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
by Keith Quinn on Jan 18, 2012 12:08 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He'll say it was in the past and that he regrets it
If as much. He apologized to Pierre after the assault, but never to the fans.
But the hit does continue to be a defining moment for the franchise, especially for younger fans of the past 25 years that have little to no memories of the Cup victories.
Ha, just one guy?
It’s funny, personally if I was a reporter, (or even just as me now), I wouldn’t have the heart to ask him. I think about how I would not want my kids to see me like that on youtube, and I can only imagine that he feels terrible and guilty.
Hell, Turgeon himself has forgiven him and they’ve spoken…but as a fan…gonna carry the hate a little longer and hope he fails miserably. My team loyalty demands it.
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
I hope so
I try to forgive people, I do. It’s just hard for me to even put myself inside the head of someone who reacts to defeat in that way — at least an adult, anyway.
But I’ve thought about it quite a lot all the years. Never knew if the “finishing my check” line was delivered to CYA before a pending suspension, or if it was already a sort of shame-induced cognitive dissonance.
Probably, as with most public figure apologies/contrition, I’m still dubious because I never saw/heard him walk through what went on in his head. (Maybe I have and forgotten, actually.)
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
Why do you think he feels terrible and guilty?
It wasn’t a check…He was mad at him for scoring so he decided to try and hurt a the guy that just scored…He succeeded in taking out the Isles best player and his hardest competition…I wouldnt be surprised if thats exactly what he was trying to do…He pulled a Tonya Harding on the Isles…What a piece of shit…
I just have a hard time thinking
that any human being would be without some remorse or regret over something like that. I’ve done plenty of stupid shit in the past that I’m not proud of…the hope is you learn from that and grow some.
Obviously, I don’t know him, but I can’t imagine a guy sitting down with his kid and watching that as a source of pride.
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
by Keith Quinn on Jan 18, 2012 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
I know what you mean.
In fact, the “I didnt know play had stopped” thing, as ridiculously stupid as it is, might be something that he at this point genuinely believes to be true. Memories are a lot more fluid than they seem- they change, and you dont even realize it. His mind might have changed his own memory just so that he can live with himself. Its a lot easier to believe you just didnt know the play had stopped and live with yourself than it is to believe you are a horrible scumball.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Jan 18, 2012 1:16 AM EST up reply actions
They're called sociopaths
There are plenty of people who lie, cheat, and steal without feeling remorse. For a scary perspective, check out Martha Stout’s ‘The Sociopath Next Door.’ she claims one in 20 adults are sociopaths. That might be high, but as someone who deals with liars every day, I’ll tell you it’s more common than you think. Trouble is, the 19 out of 20 who aren’t can’t imagine there are people who live this way, without conscience. So the sociopaths take advantage again and again.
by BobSulli on Jan 18, 2012 2:02 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
I think its easy to admit to yourself that "I let anger get the best of me and I was a scumball at that moment"..
The problem is that would require quite a bit of humility…
I hear ya...I will admit I have had my moments as well...
Its just hard to give this guy the benefit of the doubt…He never really showed that he has remorse in public…
Is it possible to rise above one regrettable act?
It’s obvious that most people have forgiven him or forgotten it, and that’s fine. But in the eyes of the fans of the team you wronged, THAT specific act will define who you are and who you will be.
He paid the price?
He missed the first quarter of a very long season, and apologized (privately) — to my recollection. Did he pay any other price? If I ever saw from him absolute contrition, if he did PSAs supporting good sportsmanship and really laid it out there…I can think of lots of ways I could move past it. But I don’t remember ever seeing any kind of mea culpa that matched the act.
He didnt pay the price...He should've done jail time....
22 games is hardly justice
Chris Simons move was pretty bad...He hasn't been around since that kick with his skate..
I hope hes not back to drinking…
Chris didnt attack a player celebrating a goal.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Jan 17, 2012 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
come to think of it...He didn't attack a lady bing winner, either...Far from it
by KO21 on Jan 19, 2012 11:03 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Nope, it was A-Holeweg
Chris Simon has had a lot of good years of hockey since he left the NHL. Ive missed him, honestly.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Jan 19, 2012 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Fixed.
They’re also 12-8-1 since firing Boudreau and installing the othermammalreptile.
Yet another Moulson brother-in-law.
by ICanSeeForIslesAndIsles on Jan 17, 2012 12:39 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
I thought the reptile was in Carolina.
Writer at Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times
Pitchf/x enthusiast.
http://twitter.com/#!/garik16
by garik16 on Jan 17, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
There's plenty of room at the aquarium for both.
Yet another Moulson brother-in-law.
by ICanSeeForIslesAndIsles on Jan 17, 2012 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
wait a turtle is a reptile too, right?
Bc then you can add Talbot to that fish tank.
The New York Islanders: saving their best for the wrong conference since '05
by Chris McNally on Jan 17, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Good idea.
We’ll put him next to the scorpion/turtle hybrid, averyous suchatoolus.
Yet another Moulson brother-in-law.
by ICanSeeForIslesAndIsles on Jan 17, 2012 5:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He's a weasel
"He's depriving some small village of a pretty good idiot" - Mike Milbury on Ziggy Palffy's agent. On Twitter: @Dan_of_Science
by PGI on Jan 17, 2012 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Whoops! Should read....
They’re also 12-8-1 since firing Boudreau and installing theother mammalreptile.
Since Boudreau is definitely a mammal.
Yet another Moulson brother-in-law.
by ICanSeeForIslesAndIsles on Jan 17, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
I was gonna let you go
You were on a roll.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
Yeah, i rec'd that whole thing
Still waiting for a GOZO
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jan 17, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
Makes sense.
Reptiles are generally green.
Yet another Moulson brother-in-law.
by ICanSeeForIslesAndIsles on Jan 17, 2012 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
Going to the Game.. with the best seats I've ever had for a hockey game..
… and that includes the countless times I went with my friend who’s family has season tickets in those Red Seats with the personal TVs and everything at Nassau Coliseum..
Hopefully it’s a game I want to be close to see. Pretty excited nonetheless.
Go Isles
by BaltimoreIslander on Jan 17, 2012 12:44 PM EST reply actions
Nice
I’m in the same boat. Christmas gift from Mrs. Afro. A few rows behind the Caps bench. Anyone have any choice words they want me to share with the Lizard King?
“Watch your back.”
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
not mrs. supreme...
mrs. afro… lol
try and get a “we remember” chant going
that or hit the butcher shop on the way there and buy a gutless pig to throw on the ice
These comments crawl up from the depths of the deepest Chasm of Saar
by bob l on Jan 17, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
buy a gutless pig to throw on the ice
This is one of the best ideas I’ve ever heard! We should do this before every game the Isles play the caps at the Coliseum. Like the octopus in Detroit, but better!
The visuals here [deleted]
Okay, I’m in a rush and didn’t have time to mull over where this falls in the blurry middle — but if JP even regretted posting it, I figured it must be rough.
Sorry to dump any replies with it (I’m actually motivated by making sure a decision wasn’t made even later and tossing out even more hilarious replies with the, um, “bathwater.”), but the system dumps an entire subthread with the initial colorful one.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
I hope the fans do chant allot.
Fuck Hunter and the NHL for allowing him to play/coach.
by KO21 on Jan 17, 2012 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Is that what yesterday was all about...
MLK = Motherf***ing Lizard King
I was wondering why my daughter was off from school. They really love him down here.
I've had enough! It's time to call out Garth Snow!
@JPinVA
Throw something at him and then yell that you were just finishing your check.
by Nick (LetThereBeLighthouse) on Jan 17, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Is that the explanation Hunter gave for that assault?
What was his excuse? Does anyone have a quote from him about this?
Yea, he basically claimed he didn’t know the play was over and was “just finishing his check” on Turgeon. No remorse, no awareness, no class….
by Nick (LetThereBeLighthouse) on Jan 17, 2012 9:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Fuck that guy...
He’s a shit stain on the NHL
by KO21 on Jan 17, 2012 10:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
See you there
UVa Student. Twitter: @ericdavidmorris
by edavidmorris on Jan 17, 2012 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
enjoy it
I went down from Baltimore last fall to see the game @the verizon center and it’s pretty nice. There were a bunch of transplanted Isles fans there too.
Definitely a poster at Lighthouse Hockey until 2015, then maybe somewhere else.
by ArsenalLI on Jan 17, 2012 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'll be there
Supporting my boys in my old 3rd jersey (the orange one you all think is ugly but I think is awesome!).
UVa Student. Twitter: @ericdavidmorris
by edavidmorris on Jan 17, 2012 1:22 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
VA Support
I saw a car driving through my neighborhood with VA plates that read “NY ISLES”. I’d have followed them but I already have “stalking” issues down here.
Maybe next game down here we can put something together to meet up at the green turtle or something. There always seems to be a good presence in DC. Last time I was at the Turtle Ilses fans owned the bar. That was a while ago.
I've had enough! It's time to call out Garth Snow!
@JPinVA
Last time I was at the Turtle Ilses fans owned the bar.
That doesnt even happen in NY lol.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Jan 18, 2012 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
Hell no
We park our cars in the same garage – I love me some orange jersey.
Success was survival and, kid, it still is
by IslesFanInNJ on Jan 17, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
Total crap
Sergei Kostitsyn didn’t even crack the top 200!
by brother_rat on Jan 17, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Either did Rinne and they have Theodore ahead of him.
That’s about as bad as not putting JT in the top 25 under 25.
Still waiting for a GOZO
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jan 17, 2012 2:51 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
lol, that's a fantasy player list. Based on fantasy team worth.
Clutterbuck isn’t a top 200 player. lol.
What do you mean they won 4 cups in a row? Is that possible?
Brooks Laich
Some of you guys going to the game,……. maybe kidnap him. If you get caught just tell the cops that he has agreed to change places with Rolston.
Is this Brian Compton?
As much as I like Brooks as a player… $6.5M this year and a $4.5M cap hit over 6 years… his agent is far better than he is.
Frans Nielsen should get a front loaded contract as well… about $4M the first year as a reward for playing for the RFA MIN for 4+ years. I wouldn’t mind having both, but I’d much rather have Frans for a $3.5M cap hit over 4 years. $4M, 3.5, 3.5. 3… and then at 31 he can open up the flood gates if he has a few 20G, 40P years at plus infinity.
I've had enough! It's time to call out Garth Snow!
@JPinVA
by JPinVA on Jan 17, 2012 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
This is the second time ina row that the Caps meet the Isle at a very interesting time for the Caps. Last time the Caps were 9-2 but the cracks in the foundation were apparent. The collapse against the Isle was one of the tremors that presaged the total collapse.
Now the Caps are on a bit of a win streak, but they’ve been outshot in every game and they’ve played bad teams basically to a draw at ES.
Hunter’s MO seems to revolve around turning every game into a crawl and a coin flip, at least in terms of possession. Lately it’s been working due to a run of strong goaltending. We’ll see how long before that well runs dry.
Patron saint of quality footwear.
Yeah, we seem to have that this year
The Isles also met the Bruins during their sky-is-falling “Cup hangover” awful start. Then they promptly lost by a blowout, and the Bruins have been on a tear ever since.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
Dale Hunter and the Capitals:
I hate those guys.
"I didn't come out of a cereal box." --Bob Dylan
by isles732 on Jan 17, 2012 2:59 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Very off topic here
But i just wanted to mention that i just got my hamonic jersey in the mail from sportsk.com. Its beautiful. Definitely better quality than NHL.com, and it was a little bit cheaper i think. Only complaint is that it took like a month for them to get it to me but oh well.
I think it was Dom who recommended the site in a fanshot way back when so thanks a lot! really worth every penny
"Mario Lemiuex… I used to respect you."- Turgeon1992
Good to hear
Yes, I’d highly recommend them. The Rolston speed in my experience has been worth the Nielsen payoff.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
by Dominik on Jan 17, 2012 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Nice tip
Nameless are $68, players sweaters are $160, is that what you paid?
That sounds right
Might run sales or something that makes the customized price slightly less? Only used them a few times, but every time very glad I did. (I had an unbelievably bad experience with a sale at nhl.com.)
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
Strome to get DiPietro Surgery (face, not knee, hip, hernia, or whatever else I may have missed)
Definitely a poster at Lighthouse Hockey until 2015, then maybe somewhere else.
Dammit
he plays “point” on the power play? Also,
MICHEAL HALEY TO NIAGRAA!!!!11
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
by Keith Quinn on Jan 17, 2012 5:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That would be awesome
But i don’t think he’s allowed to play there.
Still waiting for a GOZO
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jan 17, 2012 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
Thank goodness it's Islanders Face
and not the others.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
by Dominik on Jan 17, 2012 5:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The article actually notes that he seems tired (they call it a “hectic pace”). Islanders Face might actually work out here.
by afrosupreme on Jan 17, 2012 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
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1979-80
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May 24, 1980: Tonelli to Nystrom. At long last, the steady build of the New York Islanders from expansion doormat to surprise semifinalist to annual contender reaches the promised land: Buoyed by a late season trade for Butch Goring that gave the team the depth up the middle GM Bill Torrey had been seeking, the Islanders knock off the Philadelphia Flyers in six games.
The victory justified the faith in coach Al Arbour who guided them from their second season to their first Stanley Cup seven seasons later. The Islanders would not be the first expansion team to win the Stanley Cup, but they would be the only one capable of a dynasty.
1980-81
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May 21, 1981: This time it was much easier. After falling to "only" 91 points in the 1979-80 season, the Islanders returned to their division title tradition, piling up 110 points -- a whole 13 points over second-place Philadelphia.
Between the quarterfinals (where they beat the upstart Oilers in six games) and the finals, the Islanders reeled off eight consecutive wins -- with a four-game sweep of archrival Rangers in between. As they defeated the Minnesota North Stars in five games for their second Cup, their goal difference in the final was a combined +10.
1981-82
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May 16, 1982: Another year, another landslide title. The Islanders won the Patrick Division by a whopping 26 points over the second-place Rangers, and were seven points clear of their nearest competition for the President's Trophy, the still-not-quite-ripe Edmonton Oilers.
A first-round scare against the Pittsburgh Penguins turned in the Isles' favor thanks to John Tonelli's heroics, and a true dynasty was on its way: Past the Rangers in six games, then an eight-game sweep of the Quebec Nordiques and Vancouver Canucks to run away with the Stanley Cup.
1982-83
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May 17, 1983: Not so fast, whipper-snappers. The Edmonton Oilers' steadily rising challenge for league supremacy took them all the way to the finals for the first time, where the New York Islanders summarily dispatched them in a four-game sweep. For the Islanders, the Dynasty was secured. For the Oilers, it was a powerful lesson in where talent ends and the demands of playoff hockey begin.
Four years, four Cups, 16 consecutive playoff series wins (a record that would grow to 19 until the rematch with the Oilers the following year). Mike Bossy scored 60 goals yet again, and Wayne Gretzky became acquainted with Billy Smith's crease.
