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An Argument against Young NHL Captains: Why Rush?

News: Mike Richards signs for 12 years, $69 million.
I guess it's safe to get your Richards jerseys now.

>>A Philadelphia message board in December 2007

Heh. ... On that day the Flyers doubled down on who they believed Mike Richards to be: Not merely a budding captain at a young age (an honor he'd receive the following summer), but also one they could commit 12 years to.

Three seasons later, he's a Los Angeles King.

When people talk about the New York Islanders captaincy (we touched on this in the morning post, where Frans Nielsen's name also got a good mulling from readers), a few camps campaign for a young player who will "be a fixture" for years to come, rather than another veteran whose time left is less assured. I get that sentiment, but I'm not convinced it's the way to go.

Star-divide

 

 

Very young captains whose stories had happy endings include Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Sidney Crosby and Steve Yzerman -- who himself was nearly traded by Scotty Bowman just before the good times finally rolled in Detroit. (Yes, Yzerman's immortality was far from certain a decade into his captaincy of the Red Wings). Those aren't just top players, they're the top players of their era.

To be fair, Dustin Brown (named captain just before his 24th birthday) sure seems to be working out in Los Angeles. It can and does happen. I just think you need to be very careful -- and don't let the desire for a public mystique override consideration of what can go wrong.

Very young captains whose tracks derailed include Patrick Marleau in San Jose (ultimately yanked), Joe Thornton in Boston (traded after the scapewagon ran over him), and Vincent Lecavalier in Tampa Bay (yanked, but eventually given back). Alex Ovechkin's captaincy hasn't derailed in Washington, but as late as this summer his coach was talking about things he still needed to learn to become the ideal captain. Further back, Brett Hull was named Blues captain at an older 28, not under the "born leader" theory but rather the "he's our fixture" theory. Hull's "C" was yanked three years later. His greatest team success was with other NHL teams that already had multiple experienced leaders ahead of him in the pecking order.

The point is, young stars and great players already carry a mantle -- and burden -- of being the most important focal points on their teams. They don't need another unless you're absolutely certain they're already leaders.

Foisting the symbolic and real responsibilities of the "C" on them may or may not be wise, but it's certainly not necessary. It might even waste an opportunity to allow a young star to hone their game as they mature while also enabling another veteran to take a formal leadership role and apply the "experience" we so often ascribe to guys who have been around the block.

Meanwhile young captains become easy targets for the "wasn't ready / too soon" meme that's so easily avoided.

Before I continue, there are two caveats to remember any time fans and even media discuss who should be next Islanders captain:
1) We're not "in that room," so we're just speculating on what's best for the group dynamic inside those walls.
2) By and large, although it does carry some very real responsibilities, in most cases who has the literal "C" does not make or break a team's fortunes.

 

Leadership vs. Longevity

To point #1 above, I'm not in that room even as media, but I do occasionally hear from those who are that Kyle Okposo carries influence that fans might not pick up on TV or in the seats. His name is brought up often as a candidate for the captaincy, and if there's fire with that smoke I suspect it's for the right reasons, not for the "he's got a five-year deal" reach for longevity. I wouldn't worry much if he were the choice.

Still, longevity is great. Growing with a team is great. But you can't force it. The Flyers forced it with Richards, then regretted it. (Even with that regret, I'm not sure why dumping Richards rather than just yanking his "C" was the way to go. They received a fantastic prospect in return in Brayden Schenn, but it's an immediate downgrade for next season. And Chris Pronger's window to help them to a Cup is not getting any wider. But that's the Flyers.)

There are reasons beyond leadership ability and maturity that weigh into this decision: Such as, who is best positioned to bring and keep this team together?

So if the Islanders elect to go young with the next captain and pass over Mark Streit, it will probably work out alright. (Although people It will probably reflect careful thought both from the coaching staff and the players they guide. Doug Weight's influence as a former captain and teammate and new coach to these guys probably means a lot to this decision.

But as to the NHL trend of tapping your rising star and using the "C" to vault him to a leadership role he's yet to exhibit -- some fans suggest John Tavares for the Islanders -- my feeling is: Why risk harm? Why risk a Vinny or Marleau situation? A young star's day will come, and he'll have earned the "C" if he receives it mid-career. There is no harm in waiting. Meanwhile, a veteran being named captain has no drawbacks. It fits within traditional team hierarchies. Slumps do not get mixed in with "he wasn't ready for this" memes. Young player's allowed to keep learning, older player's allowed to be the steady hand.

And maybe, just maybe, those extra years of experience mean something when the time comes to kick some teammates in the rear.

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Great post (as usual) Dom...

I’m also against giving JT the captaincy. One day, yes….but not yet. I think it’s KO’s or Streit’s to lose.

My question to those smarter then me (i.e. everybody) is…..any difference, positives, negatives, etc. to giving a “C” to a forward vs. a defenseman? Would it make any difference, or does it not matter?

Proud to root for the Jets, Mets, and Islanders!!!
Twitter: cmauceri524

by CharlieIsles on Sep 2, 2011 10:35 AM EDT reply actions  

Why KO?

I’m not sure if I see what makes KO such a viable choice over other guys on the team?

I really dont care who is named captain but to me Frans Neilsen should be chosen over KO (more Longevity, More consistency, better all around player, etc.) but then again I am not in the room.

We’re not “in that room,” so we’re just speculating on what’s best for the group dynamic inside those walls

_____________________________________________________

Twitter: @mikeryaninc
"Past performance Is Not A Guarantee For Future Results"
"Listening is a Skill" -Jack Capuano

by FB4Real on Sep 2, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well said. After Yzerman, we’ve had Lidstrom who played under Yzerman for years (skipping Drake for now). Looks like next in line is Zetterberg who, likewise, has played for years while Lidstrom has worn the C. Seems to have worked out alright.

Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.

by red army line on Sep 2, 2011 10:42 AM EDT reply actions  

The choice of who gets the C is always interesting

But under “Very young captains whose tracks derailed,” you left off a conspicuous one:

Bryan McCabe (young captain traded for a veteran captain that…didn’t work out so good for either team).

For the record, I was and still am a Linden fan for his overall career. But he was lost on Long Island.

"He's depriving some small village of a pretty good idiot" - Mike Milbury on Ziggy Palffy's agent Paul Kraus.

by PGI on Sep 2, 2011 10:45 AM EDT reply actions  

Bryan McCabe (young captain traded for a veteran captain that…didn’t work out so good for either team).

???

McCabe and Bertuzzi were traded for Linden.

McCabe was dealt in the flurry of deals that got the Canucks BOTH Sedin Twins
Bertuzzi was dealt for Luongo

So pretty much while the Islanders traded Linden for a first rounder, the Canucks laid the foundation for a Stanley Cup contender in part due to getting McCabe and Bertuzzi. I’d say it worked out for them.

"Maybe (Frans) should concentrate more on FO rather than the thugging aspect of his game." - AP77
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.

by Mark D on Sep 2, 2011 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

I hadn't thought of it that way

And I forgot that McCabe was traded in the Sedin maneuver. I was thinking of just the captaincy aspect of it. I remember all the press about the Islanders giving their C to a 24-year-old and then shipping him off half a season later. But that was life under Milbury.

"He's depriving some small village of a pretty good idiot" - Mike Milbury on Ziggy Palffy's agent Paul Kraus.

by PGI on Sep 2, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Ahhh, good point

I always saw McCabe more as Milbury wasting him too soon rather than him fumbling the captaincy. But that should’ve gotten a mention.

Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.

by Dominik on Sep 2, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

McCabe

I was a huge McCabe fan when he came to the Island. And even more pumped that he became their captain, then heartbroken when he left. But soon I got used to the heartbreak, as I felt the same way about Luongo.

by Jones79 on Sep 2, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Completely agree, obviously

And I always figure that’s an easy way to spread important responsibilities around. The skilled guy already carries an inherent leadership role. Someone else can take on a bigger spirit/morale role.

Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.

by Dominik on Sep 2, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Forgot to mention

Both Yashin and Brett Hull received the “C” under circumstances where they clearly felt they deserved it as the best player on the team. I think those are cases where that approach backfires.

Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.

by Dominik on Sep 2, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Disagree with KO

I realize I’m not “on the inside”, but it seems that KO’s mood is down quite a bit. Perhaps I’m reading his personality incorrectly, but if his mood is going to be up-and-down a lot, I’d rather not see him named captain— at least not this season. I do really like his overall game, though.

Nielsen or Moulson would be good, I think. I’d avoid Streit until/unless he looks entirely healthy for a 20-game stretch. Possibly AMac. AMac should at least be in consideration for an ‘A’ considering how much his group of D overachieved last season with all the injuries. (And KO and JT in consideration for ’A’s as well.)

by North Dakota Red Eagle on Sep 2, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting

He’s always struck me as almost relentlessly upbeat. But I have heard he’s intense inside the walls.

Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.

by Dominik on Sep 2, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I sorta hate this topic - This isn't Yankees Captaincy we're talking about
We’re not “in that room,” so we’re just speculating on what’s best for the group dynamic inside those walls

When Don Mattingly, popular and long time Captain of the New York Yankees, was asked who was the most natural leader he ever saw was his response was:

TONY CLARK. Who? you say. Tony Clark was a backup 1st Baseman and DH for the Yankees in 2004. He probably played only about 1/3 of the games he dressed for and his performance was mediocre at best. Mattingly said this while Derek Jeter was the Yankees official captain.

A few years ago, the Islanders had a player vote to determine their captain. It was an obvious choice at the time…but I still thought it was the right to go about the choice.

In the end…. I only care about W’s and L’s for the Islanders but i do think it would be interesting to see who would win the job if there was a player vote .

_____________________________________________________

Twitter: @mikeryaninc
"Past performance Is Not A Guarantee For Future Results"
"Listening is a Skill" -Jack Capuano

by FB4Real on Sep 2, 2011 12:27 PM EDT reply actions  

I was never one...

to say the loudest guy in the room, the rah-rah type, was the archetype for a Captaincy. Matter of fact, in most instances its the guy who says the least, but who’s words carry weight that has a greater impact on the team.

Admittedly, this is not pro-sports, but my experience as a high school athlete was replete with idiots who thought leadership was shouting, “C’mon guys!” from the bench or their position on the field/floor.

Barring an obvious choice (from ‘inside the room’) then I too am in the camp that says ‘let the players vote for it’…

I like Okposo as the choice. The problem with that choice, however, is that leadership and production must go hand in hand for a 2nd line guy.

by pennst92 on Sep 2, 2011 12:29 PM EDT reply actions  

meant to edit out that last part...

before posting. I reconsidered the thought and don’t necessarily agree w/ the statement – little help please (production/leadership).

thx.

by pennst92 on Sep 2, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm in the make-your-words count camp

Of course there’s more to it than speeches, fire and production in my book, but you don’t want a captain you’ll eventually tune out. Konopka’s big personality struck me as too much to be captain, for example, even if he were a better player.

Agree with your disagreement with yourself about production. I don’t think that’s necessary.

Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.

by Dominik on Sep 2, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Give the "C to RDP, "A" to Bailey and Mottau

Together they can form the axis of futility.

by AP77 on Sep 2, 2011 12:39 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Reggie

Who acted like the captain on the Charlestown Cheifs? Reggie Dunlop.

anyone know who was the actual captain? (try not to google it…)

either way, it’s just a letter on a sweater, the leaders will still lead even if they don’t have a “C”. I just hope there is more leadership available for us now that Zenon is gone.

by Katzenhammer on Sep 2, 2011 1:12 PM EDT reply actions  

Can't...resist...Googling

The question is flustering me. I think I can see it, but can’t recall his name.

Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.

by Dominik on Sep 2, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wasn't it Upton? Johnny, dude with the big 'stash, wore a helmet and exposed himself to the fashion show audience?

Jeff Carter to Columbus? Wait, I've seen this one before, it was called Shanahan to Hartford. Advice? Don't buy a Carter jersey.

by BrassBonanza10 on Sep 2, 2011 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Classic clip offensive language

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWM-fNJ1dO8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey

by Keith Quinn on Sep 2, 2011 8:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

One of the best scenes in the movie. "I'm gonna pull it out and wiggle it around!"

He tried to warn him…

Jeff Carter to Columbus? Wait, I've seen this one before, it was called Shanahan to Hartford. Advice? Don't buy a Carter jersey.

by BrassBonanza10 on Sep 2, 2011 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because

I want you to have a heart attack and die…

NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey

by Keith Quinn on Sep 2, 2011 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right up there with Ned's impromptu mid-game interview after his benching...

Jeff Carter to Columbus? Wait, I've seen this one before, it was called Shanahan to Hartford. Advice? Don't buy a Carter jersey.

by BrassBonanza10 on Sep 3, 2011 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Streit is the most logical choice, IMHO

KO needs to focus on himself before hes required to be responsible for everyone else…

by KO21 on Sep 2, 2011 1:21 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I love ko. Don’t get me wrong. He deserves to wear the a. But id rather him improve his all around game. Remember in 09’ when he was trying so hard to make the usa squad that he had a long goalless droubt? When ko tries too hard, he struggles. What happens when we are in a playoff chase and he tries to hard to carry the team?

That’s why I think frans is a great candidate. Ko will get it…just not now. If not frans, then mark streit.

by mdesarmo on Sep 2, 2011 2:48 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

i'm not a captain guy or anything...

personally i find it overrated, but the argument for the skilled player getting favored to be captain is flawed for this example: in the 93-94 run, turgeon, hogue, thomas, and ferraro were all skilled players at the time. patrick flatley (not one of my favorites) was captain for 4-5 seasons and only racked up 40 goals. its true that the isles went both ways in what type of player would make the best captain for the club, but really, it all comes down to leadership on and off the ice. there are some captains that don’t make sense to me (crosby, ovie, lecavalier, thornton), but again, i guess its all subjective when deciding who you believe should be captain of your hockey team.

i think it’s KO.

"son of a bitch i'm sick of these dolphins"

- Steve Zissou

by gukid17 on Sep 2, 2011 4:16 PM EDT reply actions  

We all want...

We’re all waiting and hoping to put the “C” on the next Potvin…someone who’ll be around for a decade or longer and bring the same consistency and level of play. The problem is, the league and professional sports have changed since our beloved Captain left the Island.

Players simply don’t hang around for a decade any longer with the same team…it just doesn’t happen very often these days. You have to go with the vetern leader, allowing the younger guys to focus on their game, and not their linemate’s game. Rolston or Streit should be named Captain of the 2011-12 Islanders.

by RJ2 on Sep 2, 2011 6:45 PM EDT reply actions  

Lurker here

Been reading for awhile now and just wanted toss another idea out.

Does your “C” have to be able to interact well with the media?

Everyone knows after a big win, or crushing loss the media wants to talk to the coach, “C”, and other star players. So hopefully, your “C” is adept with having to deal with all the media scrutiny, questions, and rigmarole . Some players can probably handle it better than others. Some may enjoy talking to media. Some players may just want to do their own closing routine and hopefully not get involved with it. Your younger players are probably just being introduced to it or growing accustomed with it. Some may just like to lead from the room without dealing with the media. Or any mix thereof.

Just wanted to throw my question out there into the discussion. Great article as always Dominik. :)

Oh, and I pick Frans. Go Danish Backhand of Judgment!

"I didn't know it was in until everyone was punching me in the face." - Devin Setoguchi

by Captain Velvet on Sep 2, 2011 7:35 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Welcome

Welcome aboard, everyone starts as a lurker and its great to read your post.
I agree with you that the “C” should be able to interact well with the media. When I was a reporter, I always liked getting the pulse of the team, especially the visiting team, from the Captain. I also think that having someone who is personable with the media can really take that element of stress off the rest of the guys like you said as he will be the face of the franchise is one way.

by Jones79 on Sep 2, 2011 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

It can work both ways

Mike Richards was apparently not the smoothest when it came to dealing with the Philly media. How much of that is true and how much is hot air blown by that very same media is unknown (to me, at least). But it seemed to be a problem during his captaincy.

Joe Sakic, on the other hand, was dubbed “Quoteless Joe” by some media types and never, to my recollection, ever said anything interesting in any interview ever. And this was when the NHL was on ESPN and players, especially members of the Avalanche and Red Wings, were actually interviewed once in a while. Boring, but otherwise not an issue.

Part of me hopes Moulson gets the C so that we can get even more frequent daily updates on where he and Strome ate and who killed who in COD.

"He's depriving some small village of a pretty good idiot" - Mike Milbury on Ziggy Palffy's agent Paul Kraus.

by PGI on Sep 2, 2011 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is why the St Louis media

LOVED Brett Hull. Although captain or not he was always interviewed knowing there would be some great quote to come out of his mouth.

Hockey players wear numbers because you can't always identify the body with dental records.

It is the sweet, simple things of life which are the real ones after all. Laura Ingalls Wilder

by luvhockey on Sep 4, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ancient History

But when Isles long time captain Ed Westfall retired, the “C” went to a young chracter power winger. Turns out he wasn’t quite ready for the role. It did give Captain Denis time to grow, but not a great situation to have a young guy give up the “C”. Give the “C” to Streit and let our young core grow before giving them the added responsibility, and a defenceman is better because he is on the ice more.

This IS the year.

by since70too on Sep 2, 2011 7:38 PM EDT reply actions  

In the cases of Marleau, Lecavalier and Thornton...

I always felt that the added pressure of “The C” hampered their development.

It’s too much to ask of a kid just out of juniors or barely out of juniors to take the lead of a major league franchise. Especially in a tough sport like hockey.

Someday, when he earns it, (which I believe he most certainly will), Tavares will have a big ’ol C on his jersey.

That’s for later though. Right now, it’s time to let him build his game, bond with his team mates, learn to lead from the vets.

Put the C on Streit, maybe even Rolston, a vet with many campaigns under his belt and knows the pro level.

There’ll be time enough for Tavares to become captain when he’s ready.

Jeff Carter to Columbus? Wait, I've seen this one before, it was called Shanahan to Hartford. Advice? Don't buy a Carter jersey.

by BrassBonanza10 on Sep 2, 2011 8:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Or...

We just don’t pick one at all and stick with like 5 assistant captains or whatever. Maybe we don’t need one. It worked fine last year

by turkey116 on Sep 2, 2011 11:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Here I disagree

The number of A’s assigned last year was beyond ridiculous and perfectly mirrored the dire situation the Isles were in. Out an injured assistant captain, in a new one. For once, it would be nice to have a captain on the ice, for the whole season.
The headless chicken days must come to an end.
The captain is the direct channel of communication between team and referees. Oh boy did that go wrong last year! Send them someone they respect (I shuddered at the Konopka for captain requests) and not the flavour of the day. Last season it got so bad a referee refused to talk to Nielsen despite the A on his chest. Without good communication a game can derail very fast and the Devil’s debacle in March (I know, Auert is a ****head!) is one of too many examples.
Frankly, I have had enough of that crap.

by Francesca on Sep 3, 2011 6:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

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