Some Josh Bailey Thoughts
by mordred0831 on Sep 13, 2011 3:19 PM EDT
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The other way Josh Bailey was not handled correctly by the Islanders is how he is used. Last season during even strength he was a Center 52% of the time and a Winger 48% of the time. Comeau played with him 34% of the time and the closest any other line mate played with him was 11.5% of the time and that was Schremp. Believe it or not Jon Sim played with him the next longest and that was 6% of the time. After Sim everyone else was 4% or less.
The following are things the Islanders should do:
1. I believe the Islanders should give him $1.2 Million 1 year contract. It is more than the minimum required qualifying order but not by much. It shows good faith and at least a small commitment to him.
2. The Islanders need to define his role. He is not a Winger he is much more comfortable as a Center.
3. Give him line mates that have talent and that are consitantly with him. This way he can grow with them, learn their strengths and weaknesses, and anticipate where they are going to be on the ice in different situations. As much as I dislike PA Parenteau and I believe the Islanders need to trade him, but I know they will not, Bailey's line mates should be Parenteau and Comeau from the begining of training camp.
4. If the Islanders do the above 3 items and still he does not turn his play around then it would time to package him in a trade at the deadline. If he proves that he is the player they drafted then before the season is over they sign him to the extension like Grabner, Moulson and Okposo.
This really is the make or break season for Josh Bailey. With Strome coming up I hope in 2012/2013 and not this season, Josh has to prove it to the team that Strome's place on the team might be Wing with Moulson and JT, because Josh Bailey solidified his place as either 2nd or 3rd line Center.
If Bailey is still on the team in 2012/2013 here is what the lineup could look like.
Moulson-Tavares-Strome
Grabner-Nielsen-Nino
Comeau-Bailey-Okposo
If Bailey is not on the team in 2012/2013 here is what the lineup could look like:
Moulson-Tavares-Nino
Grabner-Strome-Kabanov
Comeau-Nielsen-Okposo
Either 1 of those lineups would look good. But I hope it is the one with Josh Bailey not the one without him. He has talent and he is a solid person off the ice. I am rooting that he succeeds if not here than somewhere else.
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It's not a make or break season when the guy is 21. Patience.
by Metzfan22 on Sep 13, 2011 4:44 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
This is his 4th Season
Since this is the start of his 4th season we need for him to prove he is still part of the core. With JT and Nielsen that have solidified their spots as Centers there really is 1 spot left for him. He is not a 4th line Center.
I get it. But make or break is a strong term.
Look at all the players who don’t blossom until their mid-20’s or so. I would trade him for a guy like Bogosian, but I certainly wouldn’t give up on him. NIelsen is also a UFA after the year, so as good as it looks that the Islanders will sign him long-term, he’s not a guaranteed part of the core until he signs.
by Metzfan22 on Sep 13, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Frans hasn't solidified anything
The guy is UFA this year, there’s no telling right now at this juncture whether he’s going to be on the team past the 2011-2012 season. I hope for the best that he will sign an extension with us, but until this is addressed, I feel that Bailey’s future with the club is still to be determined.
Official choice of Lighthouse Dog #1.
Bailey will be signed for more than 1.2 mil
Like it or not I think he gets at least 2 mil/year especially if there is extra years.
No Sleep 'til....
$2mil when he's done nothing? If Reasoner got $1.35mil/yr in FA and PAP got $1.25mil, I don't see how Bailey is worth more then that in RFA.
I think you are being very generous. Bailey’s open market value is probably ~$1.5mil, no way is his RFA value close to $2mil, I’d say he deserves ~$1-$1.3mil/yr in a 1-2yr deal, and he should either take it or ask to be traded. He’s really done nothing to deserve any raise and has no bargaining power. He was a sub-par 3rd liner on a sub-par team last year, and if he wasn’t young and a RFA, I’m not sure he’d even garner any attention in FA.
by OzzyFan on Sep 13, 2011 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
He has never had the tools to succeed.
As stated he was mis handled from the beginning. I think $1.2 is fare but for 1 season only. If he proves himself this year we can extend his contract during the season.
Well, Comeau on his line is actually a very useful tool. It's not like Bailey has been bombarded with crap players.
Remember for over half of last year he had Comeau and Schemp on his line, Comeau(a top 60 goalscorer) is a great weapon/decent 2-way player and schremp could score points well(10goals/22pts in 45gms as an islander last year). I don’t think his defense is a huge problem, he’s not bad there, but his offense is just dreadful right now, and I don’t see any trends from the end of last year that show he’s gonna fix it.
I agree the jury is still out, but when we are talking contracts, Bailey has shown nothing to warrant a raise to $1.5mil+. $1.2mil is fair, but not much if any more for what he’s shown.
by OzzyFan on Sep 13, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Are You Kidding Me?
He played with nothing. Schremp? There is a reason he is not on this team anymore. Because of Schremp he was playing wing 48% of the time. Yes Comeau is not the issue but he only played with Comeau 34% of the time during even strength. How are the Islanders doing the right thing by him. They have never defined his role or given him consistant line mates.
by mordred0831 on Sep 14, 2011 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree he has been moved around, but last year that was mostly of his own fault and crap overall play.
Remember, he at one point lost the 3rd line center job to Schremp. Yes, the schremp you declare as horrible(and I believe is a 4th liner on a good team). That happened. Don’t get me wrong, I know he has had a rough upbringing, but it’s getting close to the “XXXX”(poop) or get off the pot. Even if he is only 22 next year, rarely do high ranked prospects get 4 years in the nhl as an overall sub-par 3rd liner and not get the label as a bust, even if he is a 1st rounder. 4 full years is a ton of NHL time for a young player, rushed or not.
Bailey hasn’t deserved to get the benefit of the doubt yet and hasn’t earned a good raise yet for this contract. You are giving him way too much credit for now that he hasn’t earned.
by OzzyFan on Sep 14, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Observation
Last season before training camp and up to January I really felt that JT’s place was better suited for Wing. I felt that Josh was better playmaker and setup man than JT. I also felt that while JT has always played Center he was really a Wing playing Center. Something changed in January with JT’s play. It was like something clicked and he was different player. I have changed my opinion on JT. HE IS A PLAYMAKING CENTER.
At the beginning of training camp I was calling for JB to Center Moulson and JT. I felt by putting those 3 together we would have a unbelievable 1st Line that could be one of th best in the NHL.
The Islanders have never put JB in that type of position, to succeed. For Schremp to make the team his only position was Center and that meant either Nielsen or JB was the odd man out.
Lets look at his 3 seasons with the team honestly:
08/09 – JB should have never played with the Islanders that year. They rushed him just to prove that Snow did not make a mistake trading down and taking him. Instead of him growing, maturing, and playing in WJC he was beat up all season long his body was not filled out and he was not ready to play in the NHL. THE ISLANDERS WASTED THAT YEAR OF ELIGIBILITY!!
09/10 – JT & Schremp join the team. The Islanders now have too many Centers on the team. No reason to add Schremp. It put a glut at that position, and meant that players were going to play out of place. In Gordon and Snow’s Infinate wisdom they decide to make JB play out of position and put JB and Schremp on the same line. AGAIN THE ISLANDERS WASTED ANOTHER YEAR OF ELIGIBILITY!!
10/11 – JB at the beginning of the season looked like a beast playing Center while JT was out. He gets hurt and comes back to early, and was never the same player after that. Once he did come back he had to deal with the shuffling of playing Center and Wing and never knowing who his line mates were going to be. Also the Islanders sent him to BP to get his confidence back. This was the best thing for him. I really believe they should have kept him there the rest of the season. He needed the confidence building.
The way I look at it this is really his 2nd season not his 4th. The Islanders have destroyed this kids confidence. SNOW AND WANG OWE HIM A 1 YEAR CONTRACT. No more than $1.2 – $1.5 Million, Playing Center not Wing, and give him line mates with talent.
If he is not playing up to potential by the trade deadline than it is time to trade him.
Again, you don't know that "the islanders have destroyed his confidence"
It’s speculation. Nothing more. And moving JT to Bailey’s wing is an awful idea
by MatthewM11 on Sep 14, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Please Read it Correctly
I have changed my opinion on JT. HE IS A PLAYMAKING CENTER. I wrote that in the above Post
I said I was wrong.
I read it correctly
I saw that you changed your opinion after last season. Just wanted to point out that it was a bad idea
I don't agree that rushing him "destroyed" his confidence, especially the way he is billed, but it may have messed with him a little. But definitely not much.
Players have to adjust or fail, it goes with everyone coming into the nhl. And Bailey still hasn’t adjusted 211 NHL games later. Don’t get me wrong, Bailey has shown the talent, years ago and early last season. But that is the problem, showing spurts of talent and crap most of the time causes players to lose their jobs and never make it into the nhl. That’s life in the NHL. Just look at filatov, similar example except the Jackets didn’t even give Filatov that much time to make it, they traded his underpeforming “butt”. In fact, just show you a couple of the list of top 10 “dud” forward prospects and how their careers are/went:
-Patrik Stefan-took him 5yrs to reach a 40pts(only) season as a #1 overall pick. And he never matched that 40pts season again in his career. Similar NHL road and stats to Bailey’s.
-Raffi Torres-1 40pts+ season in his whole career.
-Eric Nystrom-28yrs old, not 1 20pts season.
-Malhotra-31yrs old, no 40pts seasons.
-Rostislav Olesz – 6nhl seasons, no 40pts years
Just because he has the talent doesn’t mean he’ll ever do it. Or he could have been a fluke.
I do agree that it should be very close to trading him though if he “sucks” this year. We just can’t waste anymore time with him after this year if he continues to disappoint, especially at the center position. We are so stacked at people coming up at the center position this and next year(likely) that Bailey’s “3rd line” center spot is gonna be gone. If he doesn’t perform this year, I don’t see how we don’t cut bait with him. Strome, Nelson, Lee, Cizikas, Ullstrom, are all middle to top 6 center candidates that are breaking in soon to the nhl/ahl scene. We really don’t have any more time for Bailey after this season, this should be the end of the road for him if he doesn’t step up(at minimum at center, but logically altogether).
I agree, at a certain point we have to concede Bailey is not going to amount to much
And despite his young age, he has had enough NHL experience where he should be fully developed as a player.
by MatthewM11 on Sep 14, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah Right
What development has he been given?
Playing way too soon?
Playing out of postion 48% of the time?
Never knowing who his line mates were going to be?
What devopment has the Islanders given Baily?
NONE AT ALL!!!!!!
3 years of NHL experience
Enough with making excuses as to why Bailey has sucked.
by MatthewM11 on Sep 14, 2011 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He is a KID
Three years of experience does not change the fact that kids his age very often are not even in the AHL yet.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Sep 15, 2011 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
NHL
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Sep 15, 2011 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions
test post
purely for the purpose/hope of closing whatever open italics tag someone left here
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
No dice, apparently
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
Opening and not closing italics tags are a serious crime,
I hope the perpetrator is found and faces the justice he deserves!
I know what you are saying, but there has to be a cutoff, sooner then later.
I’d say 95%+ of NHLers know if they are great or mediocre by year 4. I know Bailey was rushed and this and that, but he still can’t be given the benefit of the doubt forever. Our system is stacked with middle 6 centers, and we have our Tavares. Rushed or not, he’s been an enigma of mostly crap play overall last year, and if he didn’t have his brief 5/6gm spurt in the beginning of the season, he would have had a completely miserable season. Young or not, it’s time for us/the-isles to pull the baby bottle out of his mouth. He’s a 22yr old underperforming 3yr NHL veteran, not the 18yr old rookie entering a poor situation he once was. And great players always overcome obstacles, which Bailey has yet to do at the nhl level.
I'm not writing JB off yet
But at a certain point, despite his young age, you have to consider his NHL experience and begin to temper expectations accordingly
How come
Bailey is given every excuse, every benefit of the doubt as to why he has sucked yet his line mates are “nothing”. Why not extend to Schremp the same courtesy you have given to Bailey. I do sincerely hope that Bailey one day does put it all together but I am getting tired of seeing him constantly defended despite poor play. It’s everyone elses fault: he was rushed, his linmates suck, he has been moved around and switched from center to wing and back. It’s the same fans who give no credit to PAP for his production that have every excuse for Bailey’s struggles. A player’s popularity seem to determine whether his struggles are his fault or not or whether a productive player is good or simply lucky enough to have good linemates.
Maybe the age difference
Schremp was 23 and Bailey was 20 at the start of the 09/10 Season. BIG DIFFERENCE IN AGES.
Bailey just turns 22 this season.
by mordred0831 on Sep 14, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
But Bailey is just about run out of excuses. Nothing is in his way now, and nothing was in his way last year.
He lost the 3rd line center job, remember that.
As I Stated Above
The Islanders need to do 3 things for him to succeed:
1. Give him $1.2 Mil just for 1 year.
2. Play him at Center, no more switching him 50/50 between Center and Wing
3. Give him consistant Line Mates that have talent not 4th liners switching between 3rd and 4th line.
If they do that and Bailey still can not succeed by the trade deadline then the Islanders need to trade him or not sign him in 2012/2013. Like I said in my original post.
Having him play wing and center with the likes of Schremp, Sim, Martin, Konopka is not what I call giving him a chance. Yes him and Comeau are a good 2/3 of a line but they need a talented 3 player that plays Wing. And I do not mean Rolston who should play the 4th line with Reasner and Martin.
I agree with all but the play him at center full time. If he loses the 3rd line center job to reasoner after the 1st 20gms, so be it.
If he loses the 3rd line center job to Rolston(unlikely), so be it. It’s time to put pressure on Bailey and make him step up or fade away. He should earn every step of the way his job from now on(well or until he loses the 3rd line center job).
On Rolston and Reasner
I predict if either of them get extensive 3rd line duty this is going to be a long season.
The Islanders better not use those 2 players like Jon Sim. They are very good 4th line players but nothing more.
They were signed to solidify the Islanders 4th line. Not take playing time from our kids!!!!
by mordred0831 on Sep 15, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Advanced stats suggest that Reasoner is a very capable defensive forward
Not sure about Rolston but I think it’s totally unfair to compare either to Jon Sim. Reasoner was brought in for his defensive acumen, and he will see ice-time accordingly: shutting down opponents offensive lines. He’s not going to see 18 minutes of ice time a night but he will get tough assignments and will play an important role. I feel better having Reasoner in a shutdown, checking role than Bailey.
by MatthewM11 on Sep 15, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You have no clue
Do you even understand Hockey and how lines are made up? If you think a legit playoff team would have a Reasoner or a Roloston on their 3rd line except for emergency reasons your crazy. Maybe 10 years ago when they were still in their prime but not now.
On a playoff caliber team they are nothing more than 4th Liners and PK.
Rolston was in the Devils top 6 last year and the year before, when they made the playoffs.
So you are wrong about Rolston, whom hasn’t looked to have lost a step stats/play wise since then overall.
Reasoner faced top 6 competition on a horrible team last year(Panthers) and came out with a slighltly subpar corsi for doing so. So he should be an average 3rd liner based off that, so I’d say he fits the bill of a 3rd liner on a playoff team with that.
Devils Looked Very Old
There is a reason why the Devils let him go. They have enough veterans and need to instill youth to the team. We need Veterans on this team but lets not kid ourselves.
Do not even mention the Panthers they were just as big as a joke to the NHL as the Islanders. Reasoner on a Legit Playoff team wouldn’t sniff 2nd or 3rd Line duty.
The Devils also had significant cap problems
and needed to re-sign Parise. Not saying that is the only factor in releasing him, but his production in relation to his cap hit were problematic. There are very few 3rd lineers making 5 mil. The Isles have the luxury/problem of needing to reach the floor.
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
NOT AT THIS POINT IN THEIR CAREERS
Yes they were very good players but now they are depth 4th Line Penalty Killers. Nothing wrong with that, but do not make them more than they are at this point in their careers
You are wrong. And I don't know how any other way to tell it to you.
I guess I’ll just throw you the corsi numbers if you know anything about corsi you’ll understand. Last year:
Rolston(facing “1st line” comeptition): +9.3
Reasoner(facing top 6 competition): -2.9
Sim (facing bottom 6 competition): -10.9
by OzzyFan on Sep 15, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
THEY ARE BETTER THAN SIM
Not arguing that. But on a playoff caliber team they are 4th Line PK
I am hoping we are a playoff caliber team. If not Let the kids play and forget the season and have another lottery pick.
What do you want?
In that theory Reasoner and Rolston should get playing time on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd line and never see 4th line duty.
Nope, not necessarily anyway.
I just wanted to show you that they aren’t 4th line PK specialists like you thought they were. If they get a top 9 spot, they earned it for good reason and don’t think they aren’t capable of doing well in those spots. Rolston and Reasoner have given decent evidence that they can play a 3rd line role well(Rolston even arguably a top 6 role), so just don’t go nuts if they get any of those spots because they are fully capable of playing that role with some success.
On a Mediocre Team
I expect the Islanders to Make a step forward this season not be Mediocre
Sim put in 13 goals for us also Doesn’t mean that having him play 2nd or 3rd line duty does not make our team mediocre.
We need to turn the page of mediocraty
????? Didn't I just prove that Rolston and Reasoner can be top 9 players on good teams?
Their corsi success rate proves that. Doesn’t matter on which team they were, they both faced top 6 competition and both showed themselves to be capable of 3rd line roles on “any” nhl team.
?
Would they crack the Bruins top 3 lines?
We are trying to be a playoff caliber team. With a threat to be a Stanley Cup Contender. Not 1 playoff round and out.
by mordred0831 on Sep 16, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Jesus Christ
We’re NOT the Bruins.
The Bruins are not a playoff caliber team. They are a STANLEY CUP winning team. We haven’t even sniffed the playoffs yet. Rolston and Reasoner are both above average players who will contribute to our bottom 6. Basically, with them on the team, we’re better off than last year with Sim and Konopka on our bottom 6. They also bring a veteran presence to a relatively unstable line (JB and BC) and an inexperienced one (Martin and Haley). The rebuild is a slow, slow process. Slowly but surely we’ll be the Bruins, but let’s not jump ahead of ourselves too quickly here.
Official choice of Lighthouse Dog #1.
by Fabtraption on Sep 16, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
No Kidding
But our goal is to be that good.
Why waste prime time to old players until we find out what we have with our young players.
4th line duty is fine.
PK is fine
Nothing else
What you are suggesting is losing more games at the expense of young players that likely aren't nhl ready for those roles.
I’ll say it again, if they win top 9 roles, they deserved them and are capable of being successful in those roles And they are here because they make the team better. Stop the hating. Rolston and Reasoner are better then anyone they are stepping in front of right now on the depth chart and there were no better options out there or garth would have acquired them. So please, stop carrying this on for no good reason.
I am not
As is said on numerous occasions Nino is ready and must be given 1st or 2nd line duty. If he is not he needs to go back to the juniors.
EVERYBODY HERE LOVES PA.
That leaves only 4th line duty for Reasoner and Roloston. Or Nino goes back to Juniors. No other spots for them unless you put them in prime time minutes and take away time from our young players.
Bailey
scored the majority of his points last year on a line with Jon Sim. I’d probe that, but dobber hockey is now a pay site for line combos…which really sucks.
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
dobber hockey is now a pay site for line combos
Whoa, wait what?
That really does suck. Damn it.
by afrosupreme on Sep 15, 2011 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I went there
and when you click on those features, it redirects you back to the homepage to register…once you register, you need to confirm from your email…once you confirm, you have to log in…then when you click back on that link, it tells you you need to pay 9.99 for it.
Not that I fault them for charging for it, it’s an awesome resource, but that whole process was kind of annoying…also, I don’t use it that much, so I didn’t pay for it. It does suck.
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
by Keith Quinn on Sep 15, 2011 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea
I don’t blame them either. Sure it’s a ton of work.
That process seems really annoying and likely to turn people off.
Actualy No He did not
Most of his points were with Comeau
In terms of actual NHL experience they weren't that far apart
by MatthewM11 on Sep 14, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thats The Problem
They should have never been close. Bailey 1st NHL season should have been last season!!!!!!
by mordred0831 on Sep 15, 2011 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Comeau only 34% Schremp Only 11.5% Even Strength
Schremp was the reason he was playing out of position
ARE YOU KIDDING
If Bailey turns his career around it will be despite the Islanders not because of the Islanders. Snow and Gordon have destroyed him.
Snow takes pride in getting players off the scrap heap and giving them chances. How about giving one of our own draft picks a chance to succeed.
If he was given 1/2 the chance that Moulson, Schremp, PA Parenteau, and Grabner were he might of actually turned out to be the player we thought he would be.
If Bailey is a bust, Snow and Gordon didn't destroy his career, he was just a dud.
Tons of players have talent and never amount to anything whether it be from being unable to adjust to the nhl game/speed/size of players(it’s unlike the ahl or juniors), or whether it be that they had a fluke year or 2 in the minors/ahl, or whether they are a headcase. Let me ask you this, if Grabner was brought to/rushed to the NHL at 18yrs old, do you think he would ever become a 25-30goal scorer in the NHL? I do. I just don’t believe players are destroyed from being rushed. Sure they “may” lose a step developmentally, but they never lose their talent or game if they are smart and continue to train and work hard at adjusting to the NHL game.
by OzzyFan on Sep 14, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He Needs the tools to succeed
1st Tool – He is a Center not a Winger Play him at Center
2nd Tool – Give Him line mates and play them consistantly together so they get to know each others strengths, weaknesses, and anticipate where they will be on the ice in different situations.
3rd Tool – Talent to play with. They need to find another Winger to play with him and Comeau and that is not Rolston, Martin or Haley.
If he gets those tools and still cant succeed by the trade deadline it is time to trade him or set him free after the season.
He'll get the wingers this year. Comeau and likely Rolston/Nino. And rolston is still good.
Especially defensively it seems.
Are You kidding Me
1. Roslton does not belong on the 3rd line. He was signed to solidify our 4th line. We do not need another a slightly better Jon Sim on this team again.
2. Nino needs to be on the 1st or 2nd line. To give him 3rd line duty is a waste of development. If that is the case I would return him to Juniors.
3. As much as I can not stand PA Parenteau he needs to be the other Wing with Comeau. I would put Nino with Tavares and Moulson and leave Grabner, Nielsen, and Okposo line alone. Or put Okposo back with JTand Moulson and Nino would play with Nielsen and Grabner.
4. The 4th line needs to be Rolston, Reasner, and Martin
by mordred0831 on Sep 15, 2011 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Good hockey players don't need the perfect storm of outside factors to succeed
IF Bailey has the right linemates, IF Bailey is played at center, IF Bailey was given more time to develop…if Bailey was a good hockey player he would of succeeded despite playing out of position or with different wingers. Most NHL players are subjected to playing different positions than their natural ones and are often subjected to different linemates, it’s the nature of the game: injuries and roster changes nessecitate putting players on different lines and in different roles. Most good players learn to contribute despite these changes. We can’t expect the team to coddle Bailey just to squeeze sone production out of him. He needs to be a team player and accept these different roles and learn how to contribute despite these changes. He’s not Tavares, he’s not entitled to consistent productive wingers and loads of favorable ice- time. A player of his level production wise is going to be bounced around.
by MatthewM11 on Sep 14, 2011 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not Every NHL Player Matures At The Same Rate
The Islanders rushed him way too early. He was not supposed to be an elite player. He was projected as 2nd or more likely 3rd Line Center. No other team would have rushed him.
He was the type of player with talent that needed to be cultivated.
by mordred0831 on Sep 15, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
You can't be sure of that. You're making assumptions with no basis right now.
Bailey could be nothing, and most players that have shown what he has after 3 nhl seasons are nothing but journeyman 3rd liners at best usually.
Agreed
But as far as I am concerned he should have never smelled the NHL till last season.
Not before
I agree. Bailey should have had 1 or 2 more junior seasons then he did.
But it is what it is. We can’t change it and he should have been fully capable of learning the nhl game by now and adjusting accordingly(through 3 nhl seasons). But he hasn’t yet, and that’s the worrisome part(which I’m sure you agree with).
Nope, not kidding
Who are you, Bailey’s psychologist? Because how else can you be 100% sure that Snow and Gordon destroyed him? Maybe it’s just that, as Ozzy said, he’s just a dud?
by MatthewM11 on Sep 14, 2011 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
As I Said Before
This should be his last chance. The Islanders do have a glut at Center Position.
by mordred0831 on Sep 15, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
DESTROYED HIM??????????
Lets not paint Josh Bailey as some fragile little flower, OK?
He is not DESTROYED for fucks sake lol.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Sep 15, 2011 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
LOL
This made me laugh out loud :)
Proud to root for the Jets, Mets, and Islanders!!!
Twitter: cmauceri524
by CharlieIsles on Sep 16, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I Agree!!!!
I still like the Bogo swap
by altosax on Sep 13, 2011 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I really do not think he should.
He needs to take the next step. He has shown us some signs that he was going to turn it around but it is tme to be consistant. As I said above I really believe it was the Islanders fault what happened to this kid, but the damage might not be reversable. I also believe like I said above that the Islanders must give Josh the tools to succeed. He must know what position he is going to play every night (for him IT SHOULD BE CENTER), with reasonable certainty who is going to be his line mates, and for him to play with talented players NOT JON SIM OR ROB SCHREMP TYPES. By doing those few things we should be able to determine whether or not he is a player that will be part of the core or not.
$2M is a HUGE leap of faith...
for the Isalnders. The only way he gets $2M is if Snow is saying, “Look kid, I’m sorry I made you miss your Memorial Cup opportunity, your WJC opportunity and made you take this $900K a year instead of like $70k last year to play in the AHL”
uuuuuh… I don’t see that happening. The one place where the Islanders don’t owe him something is financially. I like the $1.2 to a max of $1.4 because… after all he has been in the top ten in his draft class as far as being an NHL player. His numbers may not be elite, but he hasn’t sucked as an NHL player… and let’s face it, he probably shouldn’t have been an NHL player before the second half of last year.
The only exception is if they give him five years and the cap hit is $2M. Something like $1.2, 1.8, 2, 2.2 and 2.8. But I am in no way of signing him for that long as he may be competing for the same job as Frans next year with the glut of prospects that could appear on their doorstep next year… and I want Frans to be an Islander for life.
If Bailey gives us 60 games this year like the first 6 last year… I could see a 25-30% increase on that 5 year deal. So it might be in everybody’s best interest to just hold off for a year.
Lighthouse Hockey: Home of the "STROME-BOLI"!
Thanks for voting "YES" on Aug 1st... just not enough of you!!!
The only 1 thing about Bailey being one of the top pt getters in his draft class is that he was rushed and had more time to rack up pts and his draft was defense heavy/weak-at-forward.
7/15 of the top picks were d-men. It was a weak class for forward talent overall, it just didn’t look like the right time to take a hopeful top 6 center when you have that much d talent around. Just looked at the d-men taken after Bailey that draft and tell me you wouldn’t have wanted at least one of them over Bailey?: Myers, Karlsson, Carlson, Gardiner, Del Zotto,. It just wasn’t the right pick imo, even if we were lacking at center. BPA.
the point is...
HE HAS BEEN THERE… there are vets that didn’t put up those numbers for three years. PLENTY OF THEM. He is a puppy playing with the big dogs and he has put up respectable numbers and helped other play better as well. His trajectory from 2009 to 10 would have led you to a 20+ goal season and a ~45 point season… and he looked like those would have been conservative numbers after 6 games, and before he was injured.
If he doesn’t go for bogo maybe we’ll get a good look at him with Comeau and Rolston, Nino, PAP… or Ullstrom… for an extended period. All of those options are better than JJ, Sim or really anybody for 2-4 games at a time. Even an extended partnership with Martin would be better than the ever changing RW situation.
What I’d like to see Josh do this year is to join the 20G club and add 25A… but the most important thing would be for him to GO BACK to being a PLUS PLAYER. Another thing forgotten was that he was a PLUS PLAYER in 2009-10. That’s pretty big on a team that ABSOLUTELY SUCKED.
Colin Wilson basically had JB’s year two this past year…
Lighthouse Hockey: Home of the "STROME-BOLI"!
Thanks for voting "YES" on Aug 1st... just not enough of you!!!
Today, yes
But at the time none of those D were clearly rated above Bailey except Myers who scared higher drafting teams because of the injury situation. 7/15 is only a slightly larger split (6/15 is pretty common.)
2008 was more about weighing Schenn or Filatov vs. more picks, and then Wilson vs. still more picks, and finally Bailey vs. Hodgson. Those other D would be nice right now, but they weren’t really in the collective conversation at the time. I mean hell, Jordan Eberle looks awfully nice right now. I can’t look at the list of picks behind him (and some before him) and conclude Bailey’s destiny is written, or even written after this season.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
by Dominik on Sep 13, 2011 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I've seen Bailey behind a number of those players on different scout draft boards:
I’ve seen Beach ahead of him, Karlsson ahead of him, Wilson ahead of him, Myers ahead of him. I’m just not sure Bailey was head and shoulders prospect wise ahead of those guys pre-draft, I think they were all close to level ground and Garth “may” have just made the wrong pick. I know it’s too early, but it’s not looking great right now.
On draft boards from that time?
Wilson yes — I mentioned him being earlier in the decision. Karlsson maybe, since some boards separate NA and Euros. The others though…Carlson, Del Zotto, Gardiner.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
Additional Pressure
Bailey and his agent must see Strome as a threat to replace him as well as Ultstrom. Bailey can’t afford to miss training camp because those guys aren’t certainly demonstrating they want to join the big club. And we can’t forget about Casey Cizikas who has also been impressive.
If Bailey’s agent handles this badly he could be gone and replaced by a rookie. Isn’t he the same agent who managed Nabby. If so…
Bailey
Honestly I don’t think being patient with his development would of made any bit of difference. I don’t know why fans are always making excuses for his shitty, inconsistent play. He was rushed, he’s been moved around and doesn’t have consistent line mates…maybe he’s just not that good.
LET ME GUESS
You like PA Parenteau and Rob Schremp better.
If you do that says alot about your hockey Knowledge.
PA Parenteau will turn 29 before the end of the season.
Rob Schremp is 25.
Josh Bailey turns 22 in October
He needs a chance to succeed. And if he doesn’t by the trade deadline than he needs to be traded to a different team and maybe a change in scenary will be the best for him.
You know the difference? Bailey had nhl experience to prove himself with while the other didn't.
Before the start of last season:
Bailey-141nhl gms
Schremp-51nhl games
PAP-27nhl games
And because you’ve mentioned him in this fanpost:
Grabner-20nhl gms
Or in other words, Bailey’s had 2yrs to adjust and prove himself in the nhl “before” last season, while the others were only sporadic and short callups. Big difference.
Yea Again
2 seasons before he should have. He was not ready for the NHL. Even Snow will admit that now. Why do you think he sent Nino back to the Juniors so he would not repeat the same mistake he did with Bailey.
As far as I am concerned all 3 seasons were wasted time with Bailey.
He was never projected as such
Most scouts had him projected as a 2nd or 3rd Line Center.
NOT AN ELITE PLAYER!!!!!!!
by mordred0831 on Sep 15, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
You Just Made My Point Of This Whole Post
Only the elite talented prospects can make the jump at 18 years of age from the Juniors to the NHL.
Bailey was projected to be 2nd/3rd line 2 way Center.
SNOW AND GORDON SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.
It is amazing how they changed their tune with Nino though.
Yeah, I do think they expected way more then they should have.
His peak was a good 2nd line center, but as it looks now, he looks to be at best a pretty good future 3rd line center. But who knows. If he takes a huge step that could change, but that’s not the usual pattern.
Well, I'm not 7 anymore so it's not a case of "liking" one player over another
But no, I don’t think Rob Schremp is a better hockey player than Bailey. PAP was given more ice-time, pp time etc. and it’s a small sample size but yes, at this point I would say PAP is clearly the better hockey player than Bailey. Age has nothing to do with actual ability and production, only upside and projection. Bailey may have more upside that PAP but he isn’t yet a better player.
I haven’t once made this personal but I’ll put my “hockey knowledge” over yours anyday. Considering the above thread between you and Ozzyfan re: Reasoner and Rolston where he brought up their corsi numbers and you only responded with personal opinion about how they wouldn’t belong on a playoff team (based on what?) and compared them to Sim I feel pretty confident that I know a lot more about the game then you. Anyone who responds to a well thought out argument with " you probably like pap and schremp I know more than you nah nah nah!" well, enough said.
Seriously when threads degenerate into pissing contests and
“if you like player A you obviously know nothing about hockey” is presented as an actual counterpoint you know you are grasping at straws. This has gotten exhausting. And I don’t disagree with the OPs overall opinion re: Bailey (just some small points) really no reason to drag the discussion down into the mud. Instead of stats to back up your point it’s “I know more than you you suck” it’s like arguing with a four year old.
I agree
This thread has devolved into a hatefest on Bailey, Parenteau, Rolston, and Reasoner. I don’t quite get it.
Official choice of Lighthouse Dog #1.
It's the italics
It has induced a madness upon everyone.
by afrosupreme on Sep 16, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Sorry
Never meant this as a hate contest.
Parenteau I never felt was that good. I feel he was an ok stop gap because of all the injuries and our younger players not ready. But never in my wildest dreams would I have signed him for another season.
Rolston and Reasoner are very good 4th line signings and spot 3rd line time but nothing more. Reasoner is step up from Konopka. As long as they do not becaome this teams Jon Sim.
Who would you rather have on the first line then if not PAP this season?
PAP is a stopgap, yes. Garth Snow knows it, JT probably knows it, hell I’m sure even PAP knows it. The guy deserved a one-year deal for putting up more points than 95% of the Rangers roster last season and right now, that’s his spot to lose. Nino shouldn’t just be placed on the top line, he hasn’t earned shit. The potential is there for Nino to replace PAP, but until he shows something in the NHL, I’m fine leaving Pierre-Alexandre where he is.
Official choice of Lighthouse Dog #1.
Where Do You Put Nino?
3rd or 4rth Line Duty is a waste. Do you break up the Grabner-Nielsen-Okposo Line? Put Nino on that one and Okposo back on the 1st line. Inactuality that line clicked 2 seasons ago until Gordon broke it up in his infinate wisdom. Put Nino with Grabner and Nielsen then.
If Nino is regulated to 3rd or 4th leave him in the Juniors.
Right now PA should play with Comeau and Bailey
Leave the 2nd Line alone
Nino on the 1st line.
Lots of nhl players(even high draft picks) are brought into the nhl with 3rd line duty and babied along so they don't hurt the team's play,
and they get bumped up lines/ice-time when they prove themselves. It goes for pretty much anyone that isn’t a JT level forward talent.
That even begs the question
was JT in the position to be the #1 C during his freshman season? Ideally, I wish there was a veteran center who could’ve taken that role while relegating JT to a secondary scoring position until he got more comfortable with the league. That most likely would’ve prevented that huge scoring drought he went on halfway into the season (which also elicited BUST! chants on various Islander blogs everywhere).
Official choice of Lighthouse Dog #1.
by Fabtraption on Sep 16, 2011 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
JT was played more against 2nd line competition in his rookie year/2nd line duties.
And according to corsi, he was barely arguably ready for a 2nd line center starting job last year, and he’s as high as an offensive talent in the nhl as there is next to Crosby(’s).
If I were Capuano
Nino starts either on the third line with Josh Bailey and Blake Comeau or he goes back to juniors. You’re right, 4th line duty would be a waste of his talents, but putting him in a position where he could learn the defensive aspects of the game while paired with two offensively gifted (some would argue about Bailey, but the guy’s a playmaker) linemates would afford him the opportunities to put up a 15 goal/40 point season. Nino shouldn’t be on the first line yet because he hasn’t proven shit. Absolutely no way in hell should he be given first line duties just because he was the #5 overall draft pick in 2010. That’s giving a young player a sense of entitlement, which could be very dangerous to his development.
Official choice of Lighthouse Dog #1.
by Fabtraption on Sep 16, 2011 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Niño is a left hand shot- correct?
One advantage of Paranteau is that he is a right handed shot. Putting el nino on the firs line and you have a line with left handed shots. Not that it is unprecedented or would be the end of the world but while we have a good, productive right handed RW who has shown synergy with JT and MM no need to break that up while Nino learns the pace of the NhL
No worries
Discussions can get heated but it’s all in good fun. At the end of the day we’re all islander fans.
I don’t disagree that Paranteau is a stopgap, but I do get peeved sometimes because I think he deserves a little more respect than he is sometimes given. I think for now he deserves top six minutes until someone like Nino proves he deserves them more
I'm just feeling really italicized right now
Official choice of Lighthouse Dog #1.
by Fabtraption on Sep 18, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
∞
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Sep 16, 2011 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
The Passion of Josh Bailey
I must admit that Josh Bailey is bringing out a lot of passion about his play. My only recommendation to everyone is make sure we don’t start acting like the guys on Hockeybuzz or IPB.
I for one would either trade him for Bogo or some dynamic player to protect Streit, or keep him on a tight leash and let him know he has one year to succeed or else.
I think he is the type of player that can develop but right now is a bit of a head case. I think he will be a late bloomer.
by TheMagus on Sep 14, 2011 3:18 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
But that's the thing, he is running out of time.
Some people want/expect playoffs this season. Next season it should be a no question must as a goal. Say Bailey throws up another ~25-30pts season with a this season, with that who is gonna be confident on us making the playoffs with our 3rd line center projected to do that bad? And who wants to continue with Bailey as our 3rd line center if he does that? Especially with Strome/Lee/Nelson/Cizikas/Ullstrom all on the brink of breaking into the nhl/ahl this/next year. I don’t see how the Bailey experiment should or would continue if he has another crap and subpar season.
Agreed
That is the whole point of my original Post. This is it for Bailey. He has to define his place this season or should not be considered part of the core anymore and be made for trade possibilities, for picks or players.
Bailey will be fine. He's only 22. He hasn't "sucked".
Cizikias isn’t NHL ready yet. And Bailey will be here long after Reasoner is gone, I think. Only way Bailey goes is if he’s part of a trade for a top D-Man. Snow won’t get rid of him unless he gets back than he’s worth.
by Les Beaver on Sep 14, 2011 10:04 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Bailey won't bring back a top D-man unless he makes huge strides this coming season
He’s only 22, but he heading into his 4th NHL season. I’m definitely not ruling out the possibility that he does make big strides this year, but I think it’s more likely he puts together a season like we’ve seen from him the past three years and if that’s the case we have to think that the team cuts it’s losses and trades him while he still has some type of value, because each season he doesn’t put all together the less likely it happened. Most players are the players they will ever be by their 4th or 5th season.
by MatthewM11 on Sep 14, 2011 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed, Bailey on his own won't fetch much.
But he would certainly be an interesting piece in a trade. I’m sure lots of teams feel he has a lot of of potential and would give him a shot. But on his own, too much risk and doubt.
by Les Beaver on Sep 15, 2011 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Here Is The Combination
Bailey, Parenteau, and our 2012 1st round Pick.
That should get us a veteran 3rd or 4th Defenseman.
by mordred0831 on Sep 15, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
That is a hell of an overpayment for a #3/4 D
Official choice of Lighthouse Dog #1.
by Fabtraption on Sep 15, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Not really
If Bailey is considered a bust. Parenteau stats look great good Fantasy player but like Wiz is lacking.
What I want is a VETERAN in his PRIME that can carry the puck.
With the above profile that is about right
What I don't like about that is
You’re trading two potentially very good, young players (Bailey and 1st round pick) and a better than average middle 6’er for a #3/4 D, one who, let’s face it, probably has some noticeable deficiencies in his game if he’s a #3/4.
Official choice of Lighthouse Dog #1.
WTF are you talking about?
You would make that trade?
::shakes head::
by AP77 on Sep 15, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I said if Baily is a bust
I want to give Bailey this season to prove himself.
PA I do not consider at all
So you would give up roughly 80+ points of production and whatever commodity a #1 draft pick would yield for a middle defender?
That’s just a terrible, terrible trade.
Official choice of Lighthouse Dog #1.
by Fabtraption on Sep 16, 2011 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
What Commodity
If Baily Is a Bust and like I have Said on numerous occasions PA PARENTEAU is a waste all I am giving up is 1st round draft choice.
As I said must be a veteran in his prime and a puck carrying defenseman.
You must trade value to get value.
Bailey right now is not a bust. If he does not prove himself this season it is time to cut our losses. By the trade deadline we should know,
by mordred0831 on Sep 16, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
My point is
You’re aiming too low if all you want is a #3/4 defenseman.
Bailey, Parenteau, and our 2012 1st round Pick.
That should get us a veteran 3rd or 4th Defenseman.
If I’m trading that much, I at least want a Top 2 guy. Sure, Bailey right now might not be worth much, but signing his contract yesterday just made him into a stronger trade asset. You’ve got a young, experienced centerman who struggled in his first three years in the NHL but still has a high ceiling to reach.
PA Parenteau is a serviceable middle 6’er. I agree that the guy is not the future RW’er for JT, but for right now, maybe even this whole season, the guy works.
Personally, I’m giving Bailey the benefit of the doubt this year. I feel that with more stable linemates and less pressure, he’ll rise up and become a stronger NHLer. Let’s start afresh, shall we?
Official choice of Lighthouse Dog #1.
by Fabtraption on Sep 16, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Well what you also said
was that you want to trade him off for a #3/4 D. So which is it? The only way he gets a chance is if he sticks around on the third line and produces something with Comeau and TBD later.
Official choice of Lighthouse Dog #1.
Exactly 3rd Line Center
If he doesn’t make it now he he should be traded. He already lost 2nd Line center to Nielsen.
Not a 4th line Ceneter
The way I figure it is this
Bailey has this year to prove himself worthy of a center slot. Hell, the guy deserves it after his past couple of years. I’m sure Garth is still high on the kid despite his low production and salary. Something tells me he’s more of a project than we all expected, but he’s got the tools to put it together in the NHL.
Our 2011-2012 centermen will be as follows:
Tavares/Nielsen/Bailey/Reasoner (Cizikas and Colliton in minors)
2012-2013 will be where a lot of questions start being raised about the future of our centermen:
Will Nielsen re-sign with us?
What kind of player will Josh Bailey be at age 23?
Will Casey Cizikas be ready for the big show?
Where will Ryan Strome start?
What about Anders Lee and Brock Nelson (who will be entering their senior and junior years in college, respectively)?
It’s scary to think about how many rookies could potentially be on the 2012-2013 roster, and yet the Islanders could still be dominant.
Official choice of Lighthouse Dog #1.
by Fabtraption on Sep 16, 2011 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
For me the thing with Bailey isn't so much his talent, we've all seen the talent and abilities.
It’s just that Bailey can do what he did in the 5gm~ streak at the start of last season and then can disappear and turn into a noticably sub-par 3rd liner for the rest of the year. When he was “hot”/“on”/“clicking”/“playing harder”/“thinking less” whatever you wanna call it because I don’t know what to call it, he was great. Even if he couldn’t keep up that pace(likely not), just playing like that for 80% of the season would have made him a 20-25goal/50-60pts player. The good was great, but the bad was terrible, and the bad lasted forever while the good was just a blink of an eye. Dr.Jekyll and Mr.Hyde, no real in between at all with his offensive play last year.
by OzzyFan on Sep 18, 2011 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Why is Paranteau a waste?
Explain. I am very interested to hear this one.
Above you personally attacked me saying if I “like” Paranteau I have limited hockey knowledge. Explain why liking a cost controlled productive top six winger displays poor hockey knowledge.
He brings nothing to the table
I got a question for you?
If he only scored 16 goals would you defend him so much?
1.He is an OK scater.
2. He is a mediocre passer
3. The only reason he got to 20 goals last season is because after the Islanders were officialy eliminated Moulson and Tavares made it a point to get PA to 20 goals. JT said " It was more impotant for him (PA Parenteau) to get to 20 goals than for me to get to 30." That is why JT did not get to 30 and Moulson 35.
Yeah, nothing to the table but 50 points
I can’t argue with you because when a player performs well (Paranteau) you make a ton of excuses as to why he performed well. When a player performs poorly (Bailey) you make a ton of excuses as to why he performed poorly. Come on, you have to see how frustrating this is. It’s like arguing with a child. The bottom line is that PAP produced very well and Bailey produced poorly. That’s it, end of story. And yes, even with 16 goals I would of defended him because it was playmaking I found most impressive.
I get that you don’t like Paranteau, but your emotion is clouding your judgement. At the end of the day all we have to go on is stats. You could come up with excuses as to why any player performed well. Hockey is a team game and all players rely on their teammates to produce. And let’s not forget Paranteau played himself onto that first line. He started the season playing with Bailey
by MatthewM11 on Sep 16, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Didn't answer my question
Would you have been just as happy with 15 or 16 goals as you are with 20.
His overall play is ok. He is 28 years old.
The only reason why he got the 20 goals is he was force fed the last 4.
Do you honestly like his overall play. If yes than that is Ok. But if the only reason why you like him is because he reached that majical # 20 than it was a sham.
Yeah I did- reread my post
I said I would be happy with 16 because of his playmaking, which I found most impressive. The difference between 16 and 20 goals is marginal anyway- a few more or less crossbars, posts or great saves.
What I like about Paranteau is that hebwas signed for dirt cheap and came in, played himself ontonthe first line and provided excellent production, synergizing well with Matty M and JT. It’s not like I think he is an all-star player or even a part of the core of the team. He did his job and did it well
Then that is fine.
I just do not agree with that. But that is why we are here to debate.
Henrik Sedin scored 19goals last year
-Ribeiro-19goals last year
-Krejci(bruins 1st line center)-13goals last year
-Backstrom-18goals last year
-Koivu-17goals last year
I think you’re underrating passing ability a lot.
by OzzyFan on Sep 16, 2011 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Henrik Sedin
That guy can't even win a Cup.
Official choice of Lighthouse Dog #1.
by Fabtraption on Sep 16, 2011 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And just for the record,
PAP’s 20goals last year was tied for 97th overall in goalscoring among all forwards last year. 30teams X 6 top 6 forwards on each team=180 forwards. So 20goals is actually right around what your average top 6 forward scores a year. I think you are being spoiled by our plethora(for a team) of high-end goalscorers with Tavares/Moulson/Grabs. 29 forwards in the nhl hit 30goals last year, that is all.
by OzzyFan on Sep 16, 2011 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
My point was 20 goals was a sham
Moulson and Tavares force fed him those last 4 goals when the Islanders were officialy eliminated
Maybe a couple of them.
But I think you could also argue PAP’s timing was off on some of his shots. He must have missed ~5 “empty netters”/one-timers were he had a high chance of putting them away but miss-timed them or shot them wide. If PAP worked on his chemistry/shot over the offseason and is still playing with JT/MM for the whole season, I’d expect 20goals from him, maybe even 25. But goals is somewhat besides the point when talking about him. His bread and butter is his passing and puckhandling, and that was his job last year playing along 2 “30” goal scorers.
What do you mean they won 4 cups in a row? Is that possible?
Garth traded a 3rd round pick last year for Wiz, whom was a billed middle pair d-man at the time.
It should cost a lot less then that, unless that d-man is signed for multiple years at a fair level and is in his mid-early 20’s.
Do not want a player like the WIZ
I said a Veteran Puck Carrying Defenseman In his Prime.
I expect a 27 year old with a multi year contract already in place.
Somebody who this young core of defenseman, can rely on like Streit
That trade isn't going to be easy at all, even with those trade pieces.
Team’s rarely rarely trade excellent puckmoving d-men in their prime. And wiz wasn’t as bad as we thought overall, especially if he can repeat his numbers.
He was a wing playing defense
Useless in our side of the ice.
by mordred0831 on Sep 16, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Wing playing defense: based on what?
You make these statements like Paranteau is worthless, that Rolston and Reasoner aren’t good enough to play on a playoff team , that Wiz is a wing playing defense. Do you have any actual numbers to support these claims?
Were You old Enough To Watch Paul Coffey?
I am not being mean, I am going to use him as an example.
Paul Coffey of the Oilers and the Penguins HOF Defenseman.
Dynamic, Fast, Scater. Great Power Play Quaterback. A Beastly Shot from the Point . But as a pure defenseman, not taking away his offensive skills he could not touch Denis Potvin. He was a horrible player in his own end. But as an offensive defenseman he was the best. But overall you would want Potvin a little less skill not by much, but Potvin was also a great checker was rarely caught out of position.
Coffey is what I would call a defenseman that should have been a Wing. Coffey had the skill and talent to be a forward but due to his great point shot he was a defenseman.
Yes, I am old enough to remember Coffey
If you look at Coffey’s plus/minus numbers the overall net benefit of having him on the ice was a positive one, even if wasn’t the best defensive defenseman. The reason you don’t make him a wing is because you want to have that kind of skater/puck-handler to be able to move the puck out of the d-zone and generate offense from the back end. His fluid skating and puck handling helped get the puck through the neutral zone and into the offensive zone. Maybe the best puck rusher since Orr. Fun player to watch
Not to mention his outlet passing, and his shot
It’s important to have puck moving defenseman, even ones that are marginal in their own zones (although I find many of these guys are often underrated as purely defensive talents. Coffey was no Larry Robinson but he wasn’t awful either. His speed often allowed him to get back in position after rushing the puck or jumping into the play. He was also a very physical player and strong body checker)
Totaly agree
When he was with the Oilers there was no defense. Their Goalie never had a chance.
The Islanders beat them twice because they had a more rounded team.
Potvin was maybe only SLIGHTLY less of an offensive player to him but he was FAR AND AND ABOVE A BETTER Defensive Player. He was on par with with Orr.
That whole era of hockey was very loose and offense orientated
But yeah, that oilers team was particulary loose in the beginning, although guys like Lowe did a good job in the defensive zone. At that point in Coffey’s career he was not particulary strong in his own zone, he would go on to become a more well rounded player with Hartford, pittsburgh and Detroit.
I would agree potvin was the better rounded player. Both took a page from Orr’s style, but whereas Potvin> defensively, Coffey was the better offensive player.
Okposo was sent to his college first.
In all fairness, Kyle WENT to college- he was not SENT there. And the Isles were very, very interested in him leaving college to go pro as soon as possible.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Sep 15, 2011 1:12 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Yes he decided to go
But I believe in the long run it helped.
by mordred0831 on Sep 15, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
FINAL NOTE
I also believe that the Islanders should not sign him for more than 1 season. He is in his make or break season. It should be in the range of $1.2 with incentives that could bring him to $1.5. Nothing more.
Josh Bailey needs to understand that he on the cusp of being traded or Bergenheimed.
What I would do if I was Snow is have a handshake agreement with Josh and his agent besides the 1 year contract, to the effect that if he meets certain requirements by the trade deadline they will give him an extension like Okposo and Grabner, If he doesn’t meet the requirements then he will be traded to another team.
If he and his agent are playing hard ball than it is time TO TRADE HIM NOW!!
Trade him for who? A bag of pucks?
This is probably the lowest his trade value has ever been. As much as I’d like to FIRE GARTH BAILEY!!!, I’m not sure I see the point in selling low unless someone else is willing to do the same in return.
My Point Was
If Bailey and his agent can not see that they are actually hurting his chances of staying or landing a good FA contract next season, Then it is time to cut our losses with Bailey.
I believe the Islanders owe him only a one year deal with the chance to prove he should be kept on the team. They owe him nothing more accept a center position with good line mates.
If Bailey thinks he deserves any more than that he is spoiled brat. If it is Bailey agenty than he needs to man up and tell his agent what he wants to stay and sign the deal.
If they can’t come to terms then a conditional draft pick is probably all we can get or another player with talent but has not panned out yet.
That is all he is worth at this moment.
Accept a chance to succeed
1 year 1.2 – 1.5 M
Play his natural position Center (not 50/50 Center /Wing)
Consistant Line Mates with Talent
Trade Deadline is the limit
THEY OWE HIM NOTHING ELSE!!
If he can’t succeed then, than he needs to be traded.
If the Islanders don’t do at least those things then they should trade him now!
Again, I repeat: they don’t owe him anything. Period. He should thank his lucky stars that he gets to play professional hockey and stop whining about “Oh, I was rushed! I don’t have all-star linemates! OMG, sometimes I play wing (even though I’m awful at center)!”
(Not that he is necessarily saying those things, but his apologists are.)
Not Making Excuses Just Stating Facts
1. He was never projected to be an elite center. He was projected as a solid 2nd or 3rd line 2-way talent. Nothing more nothing less.
2. His Birthdate is October 2nd. He just turned 18 when his rookie season started. He was not big enough or skilled enough to jump to the NHL. That was Snow trying to prove everyone what a genious he was. He could have gained experience and maturity in the WJC but they did not even let him do that. His rookie season was wasted.
3. How can a young player who is not an ELITE TALENT grow when his position and line mates are always always changing. How come Parenteau was given a permanent spot on the 1st line? They did not move him around changing him from Wing to Center. They defines his place in camp and stook to the plan. BAILEY WAS NEVER GIVEN THIS CHANCE. He never new if he was playing Wing or Center any given night 52% Center 48% Wing in even strength. That is because Gordon fell in love with Schremp. Schremp VERY REARLY played wing so if he was playing with Konopka, Neisen, or Schremp he was playing Wing.
The most he played with anyone player was Comeau and only did that 34% of the time. The next closest was Schremp at 11.5% and after that it was Sim at 6%. Nobody after that played with him more than 4%.
I look at line combos like Offensive Lineman in football. Player need a chance to play together for a long time so theycan become a unit and anticipate the other linemates moves. No chance of that happening for Bailey.
On Parenteau
How come Parenteau was given a permanent spot on the 1st line?
I’m pretty sure Parenteau played a bit with Bailey and played himself up to the first line.
They did not move him around changing him from Wing to Center.
Center is the more difficult position and it is rare that you are going to find a wing that becomes a center. What the Isles did was actually place JB in a position where he was more likely to succeed positionally. If JB actually played well at wing, that is probably where he could stay forever, but he was bad there and worse a center. I actualy wouldn’t mind seeing what Bailey can do on the JT/MM wing, but I’m also not huge fan of rewarding poor play with a promotion.
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
by Keith Quinn on Sep 15, 2011 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Have You Ever Played Competitive Hockey
The only time PA played with JB is when Moulson and JT where out at the beginning of the season and the 1st line was Commeau-JB-PA
The Center is like a free safety in football able roam the ice. While Wings play more of set positions. The Center yes in certain ways is a more demanding position but you have more freedom. Not all centers can get used to the more restrictions of playing Wing.
I put JB in that category. He is more of a playmaking, distributing center than a Sniper Center. His play from what I see does not translate well to Wing.
I do not think it was fare to JB that not only was he rushed 2 years earlier than he should have in the NHL but to have him play 50% of the time in a different position.
Have You Ever Played Competitive Hockey
No, but I’ve played hockey and if “don’t lose the point man” is difficult for you at any level, you have a problem…not your coach or GM.
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
by Keith Quinn on Sep 16, 2011 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I have played Hockey 8 years
4 of those years were on traveling teams. I played mostly left wing like my hero #9.
I spotted at Center when needed. You have much more freedom to roam. If you are out of position on Wing it can cause big issues with odd man rushes going the other way.
Not all Centers can get used to that.
This is a pretty simplified explanation of the difference between center and wing
A lot of the members here have played competitive hockey at some point (although I resent the idea that those that haven’t have less to say about the professional game) so you can’t get away with making such oversimplified claims like you are speaking from some levelnof expertise.
Not trying to.
Just explaining why it is not as easy for some to change from a Center to a Wing. That is all.
Wow, 8 years, impressive
I have played for 25. (I’m 30 years old). I win.
Seriously, when you say things like “Have You Ever Played Competitive Hockey” — you sound like a complete asshole and it kind of reveals you have no idea what you’re talking about. Hooray!
by AP77 on Sep 16, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Again Just Explaining What My Thinking Was
As much as I would love to still play I cant anymore. Destroyed both knees.
Just trying to explain the difference in the two positions.
This is definitely true and very sobering. (I’ll fix that — with alcohol!)
BUT maybe it was because I was rushed back in mites? I could have been a contender!
by AP77 on Sep 16, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Does xbox count as "competitive hockey"?
I suck at that too.
by MatthewM11 on Sep 17, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You! I am frickin awful lol.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Sep 17, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, okay then
I’ve played hockey for 31 years. I thought by competitive you meant like really competitive.
If it’s any consolation, I’ve won 8 championships also and was a captain when I was 10.
I’ve been a center, and I’ve been a wing, and I’ve been a defenseman and goaltender at times. Center has the most responsibility, goalie the most accountability, defense the most shame and wing is pretty damn easy. If you can’t be responsive to a little coaching that says “don’t roam all over the place an be responsible for that man and this quadrant of ice”, there is a problem…especially if you used to be a center in my opinion.
That is why you see many centers become wings, and very few wings become centers in the NHL. I’m not saying Bailey is going to be a horrible hockey player forever, but I expected more from him at wing.
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
by Keith Quinn on Sep 16, 2011 1:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Wing first Center Sparingly When Needed
If you can’t be responsive to a little coaching that says "don’t roam all over the place an be responsible for that man and this quadrant of ice", there is a problem…especially if you used to be a center in my opinion.
That is exactly my point. He may not be able to switch gears at the NHL level. If the Islanders planned on using him at Wing he absolutly needed more time in the Juniors and BP.
You Have To Be More Quandrant Oriented
Not every can do it,
Yes but more restrictive
In the defensive zone besides taking the faceoff the Wings were resposible for the point. Again the center was more free to raom.
More restrictive. Some players it does not work very well for.
Okay, that I can agree with
But I would also assume that the Isles didn’t think it would be a big deal because he allegedly is an “intangibles” kid that is very responsive to coaching, does everything to help the team win and is/was “captain” material.
Also, was he even playing center when he was sent to BPT? I thought he was playing wing with Rakh and Colliton was centering. He was able to do it there, but not here…so to me, that signals “ability level” and not that he doesn’t get it or has a difficulty with the responsibilities.
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
Can Be
That is why I said this is a make or break season for him.
I just thought
everyone was talking in movie titles.
"He's depriving some small village of a pretty good idiot" - Mike Milbury on Ziggy Palffy's agent Paul Kraus.
by PGI on Sep 15, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Ozzy question for you
What do see our lines looking like? If JB signs and Nino makes the team. Here is my sugestions:
Moulson-JT-Nino/Okposo (Nino I like better)
Grabner-Nielsen-Okposo/Nino (Okposo I like better)
Comeau-Bailey-PA Patenteu (Hate that he is still here)
Martin-Reasoner-Rolston
If the Islanders do the above:
Than if Bailey Can’t succeed still then it is time to cut him loose via trade or just letting him go next season as a FA
That's kind of the million dollar question.
In a reply above, I kind of hinted at the line situation with Rolston/Reasoner, and honestly it could still be up in the air. Nino’s salary being a need when he might not be fully nhl ready could be a problem. I don’t know what to think of Nino, but I’d rather not throw him into a top 6 role immediately. If I had to guess how Cap would make the lines look to start the season I’d guess:
Moulson/JT/PAP
Grabs/Nielsen/Okposo
Comeau/Bailey/Rolston
Martin/Reasoner/Nino
Top 2 lines the same only because he doesn’t want to break up the chemistry/what-worked last year. Rolston on the Bailey/Comeau line because he can mentor and bring a solid 2-way game, Rolston should do very well in that role given his play last season. And Reasoner on the 4th line only because of Bailey’s hopeful rising. I’d treat the bottom 2 lines as equal, giving them equal playing time because Reasoner was a better center/player then Bailey last year, and I’d like each line to earn their time(for the most part) and go from there. If need be, bump Reasoner to the 3rd line center and demote Bailey to the 4th line.
Obviously these lines aren’t based off talent and level of play alone. Last year without question Reasoner was a better center/forward then Bailey, Okposo is a better 2-way RW then PAP, and Rolston might be better then a player in the top 6 as it sits. And Nino is a wildcard.
Bailey
They boy better #$#4 or get off the pot. Sign now…play later and work your tail off for a bigger pay day. Whatever happened in the past is the past but be a man and making something new happen.
I like your line combinations.
Ozzy I do not understand your reasoning
If you are going to regulate Nino to 4th line duty maybe play only 8-10 Minutes a game than he should go back to the Juniors.
PA is the wink link in their 1st line.
The islanders are trying to improve from last season.
I do not understand the love on this sight for Parenteau and Schremp and the absolute disdain for Bailey. I really believe most people on this sight would have rather have kept Schremp.
Sorry
PA is the wink weak link in their 1st line.
" I’d treat the bottom 2 lines as equal, giving them equal playing time because Reasoner was a better center/player then Bailey last year, and I’d like each line to earn their time(for the most part) and go from there. "
Nino would likely get 12-15min/gm on my plan, including 2nd PP unit minutes. And if you read my reasoning, you’d understand my choices.
Not that promising
On a balanced playoff caliber team
1st line and 2nd line are your goal scoring lines
3rd line is more defensive oriented plays against other teams top line to shut them down
4th line is grinders, agitators, and for toughness.
If the Islanders have everybody play to their POTENTIAL and all players GEL
These would be the perfect lines:
Moulson-JT-Okposo (Okposo bringing the power forward and defensive skills)
Grabner-Bailey-Nino (Bailey living up to potential playmeking Center)
Comeau-Neilsen-Rolston (Nielsen being our best defensive Center)
Martin-Reasoner-Haley (Improved by subtracting Konopka for Reasoner)
Parenteau is the odd man out.
This is a very balanced line combinations.
But this is not the perfect world and all players do not always gel and play up to their potential.
You have 3 issues right now on the forwards:
1. Bailey what is he? If he is a 2nd line center great if not we need to trade him, Nielsen is better suited on that.
2. Okposo – It is also time to find out what he is. Last season was a bust because of the injury. Is he a 1st/2nd Line Wing or better suited for 3rd line duty.
3. Parenteau because of all the injuries last season it worked but HE IS TRADE BAIT nothing more.
The 1st 2 are questions that need to be answered finaly this season the last needs to be addressed by the trade deadline.
by mordred0831 on Sep 16, 2011 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Why is your highest scoring right wing the odd man out?
Luckily you are not the coach or GM and the lines are not assembled based on who you like or dislike but instead are based on actual production. I know for whatever reason you don’t like Paranteau, but you can’t argue with his actual production. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever he isn’t in the starting lineup, I mean how can you seriously argue he didn’t earn that? Stop contracting these lines based on your emotions and use common sense.
I Said In A Perfect World
1. Okposo has not proved himself.
2. Bailey so far is not a 2nd line Center
3. Nino has only played 9 Games.
I was trying to show what the lineup could be if everyone plays up to their POTENTIAL not reality. With a traditional balanced lineup.
Would not set up the lines that way
I said "If the Islanders have everybody play to their POTENTIAL and all players GEL
Right now in my opinion it would be:
Moulson-JT-Nino
Grabner-Nielsen-Okposo
Comeau-Bailey-Parenteau
Martin-Reasoner-Rolston
Who the hell loved Schremp?
I’m sure we all wanted him to succeed so he would be another winning waiver pick-up for Garth, but the guy just simply didn’t gel with the team. He was a bit too much of a floater and didn’t gel with his linemates, who at least showed some modicum of chemistry when paired with a guy who busted his ass to the net (look at their production when paired with Martin and, to a lesser extent, Joensuu). Comeau and Bailey will be better served being paired with Martin, Nino, or Rolston (I don’t know his game very well, but I’m sure his veteran presence would work wonders for JB and BC).
Official choice of Lighthouse Dog #1.
by Fabtraption on Sep 16, 2011 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I really, really wanted Comeau-Schremp-Bailey to work
Unfortunately, it just didn’t. Schremp and Bailey are far too passive and Blake is too busy COZO’ing everywhere. That’s why I’m hoping either Rolston or Nino sticks on their line.
Official choice of Lighthouse Dog #1.
by Fabtraption on Sep 16, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
This
thus far, it is a line built on chemistry not ability (regardless of who is on it). It would be awesome to see one of those guys make the line better instead of hoping for a “click”.
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
It's why Martin and (maybe) Joensuu worked on that line
Simply put, they need a net crasher in order for that to work. Bailey is a playmaker and Comeau is a puckhandler.
Official choice of Lighthouse Dog #1.
As someone who's more or less indifferent to Bailey,
I think it would a giant shame for him to end up missing an entire NHL season over a contract dispute of this “magnitude”. I saw they offered him $850k or so, and yes, that kinda seems low, but even if you just want get to $1M even, is it worth missing an entire season over $150k?
Really one player I would like to see succeed,
Saying that, give him the 1 mil contract for one year or two years at 2 mill. He just needs to have a good year of 40+ points with consistent play. Give him Comeau and Roloston/Nino and see what happens. He can build from there. If he does not do anything of note, cut the ties and move on, we have plenty of other players in the pipe line.
You fixed the italics!
Winner!
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
by Keith Quinn on Sep 15, 2011 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Its still broken on mine!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-
"Mario Lemiuex… I used to respect you."- Turgeon1992
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1979-80
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May 24, 1980: Tonelli to Nystrom. At long last, the steady build of the New York Islanders from expansion doormat to surprise semifinalist to annual contender reaches the promised land: Buoyed by a late season trade for Butch Goring that gave the team the depth up the middle GM Bill Torrey had been seeking, the Islanders knock off the Philadelphia Flyers in six games.
The victory justified the faith in coach Al Arbour who guided them from their second season to their first Stanley Cup seven seasons later. The Islanders would not be the first expansion team to win the Stanley Cup, but they would be the only one capable of a dynasty.
1980-81
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May 21, 1981: This time it was much easier. After falling to "only" 91 points in the 1979-80 season, the Islanders returned to their division title tradition, piling up 110 points -- a whole 13 points over second-place Philadelphia.
Between the quarterfinals (where they beat the upstart Oilers in six games) and the finals, the Islanders reeled off eight consecutive wins -- with a four-game sweep of archrival Rangers in between. As they defeated the Minnesota North Stars in five games for their second Cup, their goal difference in the final was a combined +10.
1981-82
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May 16, 1982: Another year, another landslide title. The Islanders won the Patrick Division by a whopping 26 points over the second-place Rangers, and were seven points clear of their nearest competition for the President's Trophy, the still-not-quite-ripe Edmonton Oilers.
A first-round scare against the Pittsburgh Penguins turned in the Isles' favor thanks to John Tonelli's heroics, and a true dynasty was on its way: Past the Rangers in six games, then an eight-game sweep of the Quebec Nordiques and Vancouver Canucks to run away with the Stanley Cup.
1982-83
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May 17, 1983: Not so fast, whipper-snappers. The Edmonton Oilers' steadily rising challenge for league supremacy took them all the way to the finals for the first time, where the New York Islanders summarily dispatched them in a four-game sweep. For the Islanders, the Dynasty was secured. For the Oilers, it was a powerful lesson in where talent ends and the demands of playoff hockey begin.
Four years, four Cups, 16 consecutive playoff series wins (a record that would grow to 19 until the rematch with the Oilers the following year). Mike Bossy scored 60 goals yet again, and Wayne Gretzky became acquainted with Billy Smith's crease.
