Chris Osgood Retires after* 110 Games as an Islander
*Yes, that was intended to be cute.
The weird thing about looking back on the much-debated career of the now-retiring Chris Osgood, about whom I am about as passionate as his mask is colorful, is the realization that he was the third most-used Islanders goalie in the 2000s. (You can split pedantic hairs over whether to use the cultural "aughts" boundaries of that decade or the numeric 01-10 definition of that decade; either way, Osgood's rank remains the same.)
For his Islanders tenure, it was 103 regular season games plus seven memorable playoff games. It's a footnote in Osgood's career and a footnote in Islanders history, but his waiver acquisition ('cause the Red Wings were upgrading to a Mercedes, dontchaknow) was the final piece of that hot Islanders start in 2001-02 which led to a revival of the franchise -- after years of ownership/management neglect -- and a playoff appearance that still represents the last time the Islanders have gotten past Game 5.
I'm not sure what makes a Hall of Fame player, but Osgood doesn't quite fit in my eyes. His career had multiple ups and downs, and while he was a steady "veteran" guy the two times he was not in a Wings uniform, he wasn't quite a game stealer for two solid teams that didn't get out of the first round. Garth Snow, in fact, had better stats -- far better stats -- for the Islanders in 2002-03, the season in which the Isles flipped pending UFA Osgood to the Blues for Justin Papineau and a pick that would become Jeremy Colliton. (As always, injuries were a factor.)
That said, this is a debate that has gone round and round in other quarters -- Red Wings fans are particularly vehement about Osgood's credentials -- and HOF debates aren't quite my cup of tea. Feel free to say your bit on that Hall of Fame notion, but more generally I'm interested in your thoughts and memories of Osgood overall.
You don't have to be a Hall of Famer to be one heck of a player, and a fondly remembered one at that. For the latter, Osgood qualifies without conditions.
Related Posts:
- It's possible your impression of Osgood was tarnished by his (mis)quote earlier this season when the Islanders claimed Evgeni Nabokov from the Red Wings. Don't let it be. It sure sounded like someone put words in Osgood's mouth.
- WebBard's retrospective on goaltenders in Islanders history.
- Islanders All-Decade Team: The Goalies.
Not Related But Related:
After attending mini-camp last week, Michael Fornabaio, Sound Tigers beat writer for the Connecticut Post, will have a summer chat this afternoon at 1:30 p.m. Talk the hockey.
Speaking of last week's mini-camp, Dougtone posted a bunch of photos from the scrimmage.
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I always liked Ozzy
Osgood wasn’t Ken Dryden, but he was the kind of steady everyday goalie that good teams take for granted and bad teams hope and pray for. The fact that he fell into the Islanders lap after the Hasek signing was probably the only stroke of good luck the franchise had had in years.
I don’t think he’s a Hall of Famer, either. But I appreciate his consistency and his time with the Islanders. And his Olde Tyme Hockey mask.
"It's too bad he lives in the city. He's depriving some small village of a pretty good idiot" - Mike Milbury on Ziggy Palffy's agent Paul Kraus during Palffy's contract holdout in 1998.
Yeah, I appreciated that side of him. There is something to be said for that calming effect a “steady” or whatever goalie has on a team. His stats rarely made him look like a superlative goalie, but if his presence made his teammates not worry about the guy behind them, that’s usually a positive.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
I love the picture caption:In his last act of kindness, Osgood sent Rick DiPietro his cage.
Let’s just hope the cage is strong enough that DiPietro can’t get out!
We are all Islanders, even if we are in Jersey!
I use the Ozzie-style CH-30 mask and helmet
If Osgood’s got any others lying around, I’ll be more than happy to negotiate for their purchase.
We may be in the box, but you get the penalty.
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Non-hockey scribblings at nightflyblog
also
Nice of you to find a picture of the Isles beating Osgood five-hole.
We may be in the box, but you get the penalty.
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Non-hockey scribblings at nightflyblog
Rafalski is saying
“I need to retire.”
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
by Dominik on Jul 19, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Osgood
He had a way of making me feel relaxed when he was in net in a way that I hadn’t felt again until Roli. I’m usually very tense when the puck is in the Isled end. It’s used too much but, he seemed to always give the team a chance to win and stayed on an even keel through good games and bad. The type of goalie I would love to play in front of and win for.
Random thought. Why did Osgood always make me think he was Glenn Healey's younger brother?
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
Gotta be the mask
And the short legs.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
and the consistently consistent good play, but never exceptional
the casting away too soon even after a surprising run?
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
The nerve of Stamkos not returning to
his native Maple Leafs. Guess Tavares is Toronto bound next season.
As to Ozzie….will always love his short tenure here. Can’t say one bad thing about him. Thanks for a couple of great seasons and congrats on your Cups.
by 4PeatSake on Jul 19, 2011 4:40 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Wow. 7.5 for Stamkos. Let’s hope JT’s 50 goal year comes after he’s resigned.
by afrosupreme on Jul 19, 2011 5:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
No doubt
Brian Burke was right: Kevin Lowe killed the second contract. Or, at least, somebody did.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
Is that like
‘Video killed the radio star?’
Oh-wa-oh
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
Thanks Ozzy
for that incredible series against the Leafs. That year was, for this jaded hopeful Islander fan, the one shining moment of happiness stuck smack in the middle of 15 seasons of cruel torturous hockey fan abuse. What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger the best fans ever.
"Seriously that's the last time you guys f#@%ing won?" -RSH (about beating the Penguins in '93)
by Bryan2112 on Jul 19, 2011 7:15 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I've admitted this before
But I hated Osgood, and when he became an Islander I thought he was going to crash and burn. Instead he put together a steady career away from the insanely talented Red Wings teams. I think he has too many good numbers, and if Marty is an automatic HOF’er, then so should Osgood. Not that he should automatically get in, but eventually.
"I bet Calgary wishes they had a backup goalie as their GM" - Pauly C
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
The Comparison to Brodeur is a Good One
That’s who I aIways compare him to when talking about HOF for Ozzie, especially their respective playoff records. I discount Brodeur’s regular season stats because the Devils have played that stupid box his entire career, resulting, IMHO, in artificially low GA and SV%.
Brodeur’s playoff record is 99-82, 2.01, .919, 23 shutouts, 3 Cups.
Ozzie’s playoff record is 74-49, 2.09, .916, 15 shutouts, 3 Cups (but 2 as a starter).
We have debated the issue of “money goaltending” and “big save when needed” versus raw stats around these parts before. IMHO, there really is something to be said about a goaltender coming up big when needed, and for me, Ozzie falls in that category.
Using Billy Smith (the best money goaltender of all time) as a reference point, his regular season would never blow you away, but then you look at that 88-36 record in the playoffs, and you say, wow. Like Jimmy Devellano has said, Smitty used to put it on “cruise control” during the regular season and then raise his level of play in the playoffs to that of a first-team All-Star goaltender in the playoffs. Smitty himself has said that it’s tough to come up with that one big stop when needed, and pointed to Ken Dryden as a good example.
Osgood is a very close HOF case, but the thing that weighs most in his favor for me is that he was usually at his best when the stakes were the highest.
Ozzie
What exactly does Osgood have to do, cure cancer? He won 400 games, was the lead dog on two Cup winners (and helped win another), has 50 shutouts, plus 15 more in the playoffs
More interesting — he is 185 wins over .500 (401-216) in regulation. Want to guess how many guys are further over .500? Try four (Marty, Roy, Dryden, Plante). He’s essentially Ken Dryden with a career twice as long.
And for those who whine that he was a product of the teams he played for — Brodeur’s Devils, Dryden’s Habs, Bill Smith’s Islanders … these weren’t exactly chopped liver. Ozzie has a far better case than guys like Richter, VBK and Mike Vernon, as well as several HOFers.f Ed Belfour can get in, Ozzie should get there as well. Maybe not right away, but in the reasonably near future.
by DonSmythe on Jul 20, 2011 12:20 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I second this
Ozzie, to me, is one of those guys who deserves his HoF spot based, not on his flashy numbers, but on his entire body of work. You can’t sneeze at three Cups — there’s a lot of goalies have fewer. You can’t blame him for playing on a good team - let’s not forget those two seasons on the Isle where he made us better. He’d probably have won another Cup had be not been knifed in the back on the Hasek signing - only Cujo got treated worse there.
Osgood didn’t LOSE games for his team. Sometimes we don’t value that quality enough. Here on the Isle, we know what that feels like.
STOP effin' messin' with my FnGO!!
by Nova Scotia Isles Fan on Jul 20, 2011 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions
OK
there’s a — strikeout — thing going on there
STOP effin' messin' with my FnGO!!
by Nova Scotia Isles Fan on Jul 20, 2011 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Roland Melanson for the HoF!
3 Cups (none as a starter) and a Jennings. Allowed Smitty to platoon. I like Ozzy, but I don’t think of him as a HoF. At no point in his career was he considered the best goaltender in the league or even in the top 3. I don’t think VBK or Richter should be in either and I’m marginal on Vernon. I know I shouldn’t hold this against Ozzie, but his own team looked to upgrade in net while they were winning Cups. I admire his longevity and steady play, but I didn’t see him as the difference maker.
Ken Dryden with a career twice as long
In reality, Ken Dryden accomplished twice as much in half the time. Those Habs teams were exceptional, but “Bunny” Larocque was not going to backstop them to 6 Cups.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
Be dominant, rather than often very good?
Ozzie has a far better case than guys like Richter, VBK and Mike Vernon,
I both agree with that statement and do not see it as reason to declare he’s a certain Hall of Famer. But like I said, I’m not sure what the criteria is.
I mean, I think he’ll get there — and I’m not exactly opposed to players who did nice things on great teams getting there (it’s the Hall of “Fame” and not Hall of “inarguable statistical dominance”). But yeah, a lot of his accomplishments (W-L record especially) have never moved me because I could usually put several other of his peers in the same position and expect the same results or better.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
but then Vladislav Tretiak (sp?) is in Hall of Fame
he never played an NHL game, just Canada Cups and like….to me, i would take that to mean playoff performances alone should be enough for some guys…
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I figure that's also to recognize his Russian league career
With the emphasis on “hockey” and not just “NHL” Hall of Fame.
If people crown Osgood based on his playoff success, I guess that’s fine … but he had some epic playoff implosions, too. I don’t know how many important goals from center ice an immortal should be allowed to concede.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
lol agreed
i didn’t agree with Tretiak being in the Hall…different league, circumstances and rules…how he would have done playing the long NHL schedule year in year out is anyone’s guess….and how many north american players would have looked better had they only played in russia? i just think it should have been NHL hall of fame only…
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Tretiak wasn't allowed to play in the NHL
Can’t really hold that against him.
"We can't get pushed around," Haley said. "What commentators say about us, that's their job. My job is to try and limit as many people who want to take liberties with our guys as possible."
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jul 20, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
no, but can we give him a seat in hall inspite of it?
i would vote no either way, b/c there is no way of knowing unless he was there…that is just me though, i realize others would vote differently
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Not NHL or Canadian Hockey Hall of Fame
Tretiak was dominant in every competition against international play except for those couple of periods back in 1980. You have to judge him based on the competition he faced.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
i don't agree
they made an exception for Tretiak…i don’t agree that there should have been exceptions, even if it was a nice gesture and inspite of communism…i believe it should have been apples to apples and oranges to oranges…how great would John Vanbiesbrouke (spelling?) have been if he spent mostly all his time on training and conditioning, with nation’s best coaches and trainers no less, preparing to play in Olympics and international games only for the U.S.A.? Would have been a Hall of Fame shoe-in i believe, given the rationale for Tretiak.
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
VBK would never have been as good as Tretiak even if he trained a lifetime
What exception was made for Tretiak? It is based on his body of work as a hockey player, not for NHL numbers that he never posted. What apples to apples comparison do you wnat? Olympic games and Canada Cups would have been the measuring stick and then many NHLers would not be in the Hall.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
in truth you can not say that, which is precisely the point - what happened to KLM line? What about Brent Sutter?
apples to apples….nhl experience compared to your peers @ NHL…
playing international hockey, after NHL season, compared to your peers who have done same…really simple….
The Russian system “graduated” players to the top team…the best players always played for Red Army, Moscow Dynamo after that, etc.
Tretiak always played only with his country’s best…when Russians did play in NHL, what happened to the famed KLM line? Makarov was given rookine of year for 20 something goals and about 80 points for Calgary, well above the age of a rookie (i believe thed changed rules after that) Krutov was notoriously out of shape in Vancouver without Coach Tikenov’s (spelling?) foot in his ass, and frankly Krutov sucked in NHL…Larinov was good, he was older but not the danger he was in international games…their best, world renowned D played together in New Jersey…i’d take Potvin and Morrow based on NHL evaluation over Kasitonov (spelling) and Vlad Fetisov…, yet that pair was compared to Canada’s best D, based solely on international play, and playing with nation’s best on Red Army.
If Playoffs and big international tournaments are the measure to the hall of fame: Brent Sutter belongs in hall of fame, maybe Claude Lemieux also.
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Why the exception?
Because after Febuary 22nd 1980, he almost gone run out of his country, when they should’ve been running the coach out of the counry for pulling him, and if that’s not enough, the dude didn’t know how to pull his goaltender in the final minute. As a huge fan of the miracle on ice, I love having him in there.
He’s always embraced that game, whether so many consider him the goat or not. He’s always talked about it. And for somebody like me, who loves to read or watch anything about that game, I appreciate him. And he was badass. He also didn’t ’just play the USA. they played games all year against a lot of different kinds of teams. not to mention he has shared his secrets with many other goaltenders. He is great for hockey. Just my 2 cents.
"We can't get pushed around," Haley said. "What commentators say about us, that's their job. My job is to try and limit as many people who want to take liberties with our guys as possible."
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jul 20, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
it wasn't really an exception
He excelled in best-on-best competition and played wonderfully in the only league open to him under the Soviet regime. He was well-respected internationally. I think the Hockey Hall of Fame did right to elect Tretiak.
Honestly, I wouldn’t be torn up if Ozzie got in, but I’m not convinced he has a great case. He was good and sometimes great, and he was only rarely asked to steal games or series. It’s notable, however, that he never did so with the Isles or Blues. He was also only once in the top five in the league in sv% and never faced a heavy workload (his full year with the Isles was his busiest in terms of shots/60).
I also think that he was at least an equal goalie to Mike Vernon, if not slightly better, and it was foolish to play Vernon over Osgood during that Cup run (even though they did win). And his work against Pittsburgh in the back-to-back finals was strong.
Oddly enough, looking at his hockeyreference.com page reveals that the voting consensus so far among hr.com users is that Osgood was the 27th-best keeper of all time (wha??)… and Vernon is 28th.
We may be in the box, but you get the penalty.
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Non-hockey scribblings at nightflyblog
by mikb on Jul 20, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
But but but
and it was foolish to play Vernon over Osgood during that Cup run (even though they did win).
But Vernon was a PROVEN WINNER.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
heh
It’s interesting to compare these two years as far as proven winning is concerned.
Osgood, DET, ‘95-’96: age 23 – .911 sv% (8th in NHL), 2.17 GAA, 5 SO; 39-6-5 in 50 games (2933 min)
Vernon, CLG, ‘88-’89: age 25 – .897 sv% (4th in NHL), 2.65 GAA, zero SO; 37-6-5 in 52 games (2938 min)
Each led the league in wins. Each went to the All-Star Game and was voted second-team all-NHL. For each, it was the ONLY time they were recognized as an all-NHL selection. And each played behind similar powerhouse teams. The big difference, however, was that Steve Smith scored on Grant Fuhr to finally hand the Battle of Alberta to Calgary, and they went on to the Stanley Cup; Osgood’s team fell afoul of the powerful Avs in the Conference Finals.
Hence, Vernon taking over in the playoffs for Osgood in 1997, though Ozzie had clearly outplayed him in that regular season, and in pretty much the entirety of their shared three seasons with Detroit up until that point. Even a genius organization such as Detroit, led by a legendary coach like Scotty Bowman, could fall for big-game mystique. And darned if Vernon didn’t play his best hockey in years in those playoffs… probably his best hockey since the ’89 Cup, actually.
We may be in the box, but you get the penalty.
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Non-hockey scribblings at nightflyblog
And that edges on that mental line of player and org inner peace
Because I remember that year well (following the Blues, you were re-signed to being too familiar with Red Wing success), and the whole vibe emanating from the team was confidence in Vernon because he’s “been there” and suspicion of Osgood because he hadn’t.
Don’t know how to quantify it, but I don’t totally blame teams and players for wanting that security blanket, that Roloson. Veteran goalies seem to be like homeowner’s insurance: The peace of mind that allows you to worry about and focus on other things.
I guess if all else is roughly equal or close to it, I can understand a coach deciding he doesn’t want his players worrying about or eager to blame the goalie or use him as an excuse.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
But HOF can never quite be apples to apples
Even for players across eras, it’s too much art and not enough science trying to compare them. I mean Dino Ciccarelli, 608 goals? Incredible, but also goosed by the most offensive era we may ever see.
So since the HHOF explicitly considers more than just NHL work (even if they don’t recognize it often), the guy regarded as the best Russian goalie in history isn’t a bad “exception.”
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
Tretiak only played one period in the miracle game,
and was pulled because the Soviet defenders quit before the horn and Mark Johnson tied the game at two.
"We can't get pushed around," Haley said. "What commentators say about us, that's their job. My job is to try and limit as many people who want to take liberties with our guys as possible."
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jul 20, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
not disagreeing with anyone's rationale:
I just believe, inspite of global politics of the day, Tretiak or any other player should not be in Hall of Fame without having proven themselves @ NHL level – the highest standard by which any player can be measured. I just personally believe there should not be exceptions, but I do accept dissenting views – I just disagree.
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
But aren't there other people in the hall?
That are in for different reasons? Not everybody gets in for their play on the ice in the NHL.
"We can't get pushed around," Haley said. "What commentators say about us, that's their job. My job is to try and limit as many people who want to take liberties with our guys as possible."
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jul 20, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
builder category
i think they put a female player in there too…maybe doug wickeniser (again, not sure of spelling) sister Haley in there…
a little off, but i can remember a kid who was pretty much a no-body for detriot…ed manno or tony manno, something like that…went to europe, and became known as the gretzky of his league…
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
What you are saying is that it is the NHL Hall of Fame and nothing else matters.
If NHL stats are the only criteria then it cannot be a HOCKEY Hall of Fame.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
oh yeah...what about bobby hall and the 72 canada cup
Bobby Hall was the best left winger in the world, was deliberately left off “Team Canada” b/c he played in the WHA (prior to the merger with NHL) and no longer played in the NHL at the time
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Hull, as in father of Brett. Further proves my point that it is not about just the NHL.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
how so? Bobby Hall was excluded precisely b/c he opted to play in a pro-league that wasn't NHL
yes it is Brett’s father
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Hull.
He was excluded from the Canada Cup, not the hockey hall of fame. The argument is that you should only allow apples to apples comparisons to get into the Hall. Hull spent some of the best years of his career in the WHA which was a melons to apples comparison.
When going head-to-head (i.e. apples to apples) the Soviet teams held their own against NHL All-Stars on smaller rinks and playing NHL rules (at the height of the Flyers goonery). I didn’t like their political system, but it doesn’t diminish the quality of hockey they played. The only apples to apples we have are the Canada Cups and at that level they were on par.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
chemistry
if the top canadian players always played for the same city, year in year out, no one would touch them…
if the top players from any country always played together, they would fair better against a nation whose best players were put together in six weeks, even if the latter were superior in talent on paper
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Czechs won gold with a team of mixed NHL and Euro players
So did Sweden. Canada and the US are the only teams to exclusively use NHLs since the pros were allowed.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
your changing erra's on me here...
can’t name a canadian player ever playing outside of NHL who could have made Team Canada when NHL players played, beit Olmypics or otherwise, except for Bobby Hull who although being best left winger in the world, was left off Team Canada in 1972 B/C he played in WHA not NHL….
prior to that, the Olympics not allowing pros to play, and whether or not NHL would allow its players to play in any given Oympics is really two separate issues.
Example, prior to the Olympics changing its policy, once you went pro you could never go back…literally…if you played in the NHL and were no longer good enough to make an NHL team, even if you were the still the best player from your country and could easily make your nation’s Olymplic team, you were ineligible due to having played pro.
For the life of me, I do not understand why the Russians were allowed to be considered amateurs…they may not have made western salaries, but the average Russian Red Army player had a much higher standard of living than the average Russian private citizen.
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Not changing eras
You stated that if Canadians played together all the time like their opponents they would never lose. The Olympics in which the Czechs and Swedes won they had the same conditions as the Canadians and the Canadians lost and all teams used NHLers.
The average NHL player also has a higher standard of living than the average North American citizen, there are perks to bein an athlete in every system. Getting back ot the original issue – I cannot fathom why I would deny Tretiak entry into the HOCKEY Hall of Fame because he had to endure under a regressive political system.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
by Hockey1919 on Jul 21, 2011 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i would stand by that
chemstry is important, but if the top 14 Canadian forwards in that era played together all the time, and top 8 D plus 3 goalies…yep…no way in hell they’d lose a tournament. USA was not competive back than like they are today…shows how far USA hockey has come…sure Czech and Swedes picked up players from Europe, not so sure about Czech, i think they were still Czechoslavakia then, and the Stasney brothers escaped to N. America,
The point about the Russian players getting perks above the average Russian citizen is part of the argument as to why the Russian hockey players should never have been allowed to retain amateur status…sure they were not paid NHL salaries (top players made about half a million per season at that time).
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 21, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
actually
Gordie Howe was also left off the Canadian roster in ’72 for playing with the Whalers. And he was good enough to keep playing top-flight hockey for another eight years.
We may be in the box, but you get the penalty.
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Non-hockey scribblings at nightflyblog
That was my bad saying a couple of periods and it was meant as tongue in cheek. For his play at the Forum and opening up the West to the merits of Soviet style hockey alone it is worth Hall induction.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
it wasn't tretiak who did that, Tretiak was a goalie who never skated or made quick passing plays
prior to russians, forward lines pretty much moved up and down, left wingers staying on left side, right wingers on right side…the russian’s made the game faster
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Tretiak stopped the puck so that they could move it.
He put on a clinic at the Forum and it was thought that Euro goalies coudln’t play in the smaller rinks in North America. Seems guys like Lunqvist, Hasek etc have proven differently, but he was the first.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
but Tretiak did not play pro-hockey
that is how russians were able to dominate international hockey, their players retained amateur status – so i believe, amateur’s do not belong in hockey hall of fame….WHA was considered pro-league, russian league was not
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
disagree...when did Tretiak play in NHL?
clinics do not count anymore than scrimages…Lunqvist and Hasek had a pro-career to measure their performances
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
You're making up your own qualifications for the Hall
It is Hockey, not Professional or NHL or North American, but Hockey The Olympics is not a clinic and even though I don’t value the World’s much that doesn’t make it worth any less to those that do.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
no i am not
i freely accept your views, all i am saying is i don’t believe anyone should be given a pass for political reasons or otherwise…shouldn’t be allowed to have it both ways…russians dominated b/c of their retaining amateur status when that should not have been allowed, i don’t see why they should than have that record measured as if it was even with pro-hockey, it wasn’t…i do however accept the rights of others to difference of opinion
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't care about the politics and I NEVER missed a chance to boo the Soviets.
I just care about the hockey ability when it comes to the Hockey Hall of Fame..
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
it was politics that kept Tretiak and others as amateurs
when clearly they were not
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Fail to see why it matters
You could say it was the greed of the NHL owners that prevented NHL participation in the Olympics sooner and even that has proven NHL/Canadian dominance.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
NHL had nothing to do with it, it was an Olympic rule
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Rule modified as soon as the NHL agreed to go.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
it wasn't "as soon as"
the rule was across the board for Olympics, this was just worked out in last ten years or so, it was done with Basketball too i believe, but i don’t watch basketball
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Basketball was done much sooner
Revenues drives the Olympics, not amateur status.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
again, two separate issues
as i wrote previously….even if say Gretzky decided to quite playing in the NHL he could not play in the Olympics prior to rule changes, you lose your amateur status once you turned pro – there was no going back in those days…even guys who retired and couldn’t make NHL teams anymore could not compete in Olympics…that’s why it was American kids who beat Russia in 1980…it is also why some players did not sign a pro contract until after Olympics.
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
How does any of this impact Tretiak's worthiness of being in the Hall?
The level of competition in the Olympics was lower than at the NHL level. Tretiak competed where he was allowed to compete. When he did compete against NHL level talent he demonstrated he was the equivalent of the NHLs best goaltenders.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
B/C Tretiak never played pro
he never played on a regular pro club team, only with Russia’s best…he never had to put his body and health through the long regular season year after year, never had to play through grueling playoffs where most players who go deep consistently have shorter careers…he always played on larger ice where body contact was far less….in short, he is one guy in his group who most ppl feel would have been somebody in NHL, but as history has shown us, you can not take that for granted, the NHL is full of stories of guys who should have been, could have been, would have been, but never were…that is the gist of it for me
…i see your point and others who disagree, but i hold to a different philosphy on this one. we all don’t have to agree on everything all the time, somethings boil down to difference of opinion, and on this one friend, you and i have a difference of opinion…i soundly belief Tonelli belongs in Hall before Tretiak.
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 21, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
We can agree to disagree since I do not think the NHL defines all of hockey
I would never hold it against Tretiak that he was never a “Pro” because his country wouldn’t let him be; any more than I would hold it against him for being a better conditioned athlete because he was forced to be.
I think Tonelli was great and underrated and I have no understanding why he isn’t even in the Islanders Hall of Fame.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
agreed, rec'd
if we all agreed on everything all the time, i would think something was wrong
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 21, 2011 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Now we start the campaign to have Tonelli and Westfall inducted
Bob Bourne is getting lonely. We don’t need more retired numbers, but a couple more guys need to be recognized.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
by Hockey1919 on Jul 21, 2011 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
rec'd
that Tonelli is not in the Hall is a crime
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 21, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes it's like saying Matsui homers....
in Japan won’t get him into the baseball hall of fame. Why because he didn’t play in America his entire career? I watched and cursed Tretiak because he WAS THAT GOOD. by the way Abbott and Costello are in the baseball Hall of Fame but they never played @ throw them out NOW@.
In loving memory;Dad thanks for making us Islanders fans, ACC 1918-2011
that shocks me
b/c baseball is notorious for having the strictest rules for their hall of fame…look @ how few pitchers have ever won 200 games….yet 300 is the bench mark for hall of fame…how the hell did abbot and costello get there? i hope your joking
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 21, 2011 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions
No I'm not
It’s because of the who’s on first skit.
In loving memory;Dad thanks for making us Islanders fans, ACC 1918-2011
I don't know... second base.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
He didn't play in the NHL, but he did play against NHL teams
It was a series of exhibitions, but if you watched the series of games or were around to understand the significance these games they were not mere exhibitions. This national pride on the line, when players actual played for pride and country.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
that is true
but like the rest of russia’s best, krutov, fetisov etc., we never really knew how they would fair in pro-league until they actually played…and some of russia’s greatest ever were shockingly total flops, while others did well
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Fetisov was awesome even over the hill.
I still have bootleg 8mm of Fetisov playing at the MEadolands before he jumped to the Devils.
Krutov was fat pig. Tretiak went on to become the Hawks goaltending coach.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
the knock on Krutov
was that once he was free from the iron curtain, he could not be forced to work and condition himself…once he was free and in the west, his conditioning quickly went downhill fast…agree on Fetisov, was not so high on Kasitonov, his defensive partner
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
there was another player who was first russian, played in calgary
i forget his name but he was big, which is why russia let him come over first…this guy was a bust…hence why i can’t even remember his name
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
another thing to consider: Gretzky ineligible for rookie of year, but Makarov is???
B/C Gretzky played one year in WHA which was considered pro hockey…Makarov, inspite of all his international accomplishments, was able to be rookie of year in NHL b/c russian league was not considered pro. Same as Olympics, guys like Tretiak were able to play in Olympics year after year b/c they did not play “pro-hockey”. Yet until recently, anyone who played NHL “pro-hockey” were not allowed to play in Olympics.
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
None of this detracts from how good Tretiak was.
I know the history of the Calder and it was dumb to allow professionals in all but name to be eligible, but Gretzky would have cost Bourque the Calder not any Russian.
Besides that’s Makarov and not Tretiak. Sutter played great in the Canada Cup as did Tonelli. Tretiak was great in a decades worth of international play.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
but Tretiak was never a pro
that is why he was allowed to retain amateur status and play in Olypmics every year…the only time Tretiak played against pros was in Canada cups…if that small sample size gets him to hall of fame, it is my believe that Sutter should be there too, and Tonelli for that matter b/c they proved themselves at pro-level and in the same Canada Cups Tretiak did…
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
So NHL players got beat by an amateur, does that make a difference?
Again Sutter and Tonelli played in once Canada Cup and played extremely well. TRetiak was the premiere goaltender on arguably on of the top two hockey nations in the world for 15 plus years.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
Sutter and Tonelli
acomplished what few players ever will…while Sutter wasn’t on all cups, players who play that long in playoffs tend to have shorter careers…looking at their playoff success, after playing a long and grueling regular season, plus international and canada cup successes…that to me is more than comparible to the top russian players of the day….Tretiak was the only decent goalie Russia had for a long time…and again, he never had to play on a regular club team, only with nation’s best, and Tretiak did not have to play 50 regular season games a year, plus playoff hockey….Team Canada had to gel fast, lacking chemistry…Red Army always had best players, played together always, and had far greater time allocated to training and conditioning etc.
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
He played on the CSKA Moscow club team - essentially the national team
Only about 35 games a season and the team was stacked. However, if he weren’t the best it wasn’t like they would have had trouble “drafting” a better goaltender.
He did play all of the tournament games as well, so I’m not trying to say that what Sutter and Tonelli did was inferior, I’m trying to figure out how Tretiak is not Hall worthy?
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
I'm gonna have to break out the old school "my eyes tell me" argument here
Tretiak, at the age of 20, was considered one of the world’s best goalkeepers, based in large part on how well he played against Canada in the first Summit Series. And his play in best-on-best games against professionals such as the Canada Cups and Summit Series added to his reputation. Had he been available, there would have been no doubt that teams would have drafted him far earlier than the Canadiens did in 1983.
Real life is even bigger than hockey. Tretiak was married and had children back home, and as much as he would have loved to be an NHL goalie, he could not defect for fear of what could be done to them.
We may be in the box, but you get the penalty.
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Non-hockey scribblings at nightflyblog
totally agree...
and when Mogilny slipped out the back door of an arena and never looked back, his dad lost his coaching job, family suffered…in Tretiak’s time, who knows what Russians would have done.
but while i respect difference of opinion, my personal view would be that politics not be accepted as a caveat…i am a strong proponent that Tonelli belongs in the hall of fame…using both his NHL career and international play, but for some reason, his international play seems to be downplayed or dismissed…
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I have no problem with Tonelli in the Hall
That would not mean that TRetiak should be removed. I don’t care about politics. I watched Tretiak play against the elite of the NHL and he was great. The fact that his career was cut short at age 32 due to the Soviets has nothing to do with the body of work he displayed prior to that. The 38 – 13 shot game in Montreal was not a fluke, but an indication of his ability.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
So you feel his international play is being downplayed,,,,
interesting. Then why downplay VT, a little hypocritical.
I’ll apologize for the dig ahead of time.
In loving memory;Dad thanks for making us Islanders fans, ACC 1918-2011
Sorry, referring to John Tonelli international play being downplayed and ...
Apology to Canadienisleslifer for the dig:)
In loving memory;Dad thanks for making us Islanders fans, ACC 1918-2011
lol no problem
with Tonelli, the inter-national play is the Canada Cups, there not called that any more for obvious reasons…USA is now a force to be respected in the Hockey World, back then it was pretty much Canada and Russia, and then somewhere after that you had in no particular order, Sweden Czechslovakia (are we ever lucky for hockey sake that is not one country anymore) and Finland…for me the fact that Tretiak is in for his record playing the west and Tonelli is not…especlally when Tonelli played grueling regualr season, plus Stanley Cup playoffs all the way to cup finals prior to even playing in Canada cups while Tretiak did none of the kind, playing with only Russia’s best laying in wait…and Tonelli still won the MVP, still always came out of the corner with the puck no matter how many Russians went in there, well that for me is where the hypocracy lies….and as for Tretiak’s Olympic record, Tonelli could not play b/c the NHL was recognized as pro league…they were “paid”. I say and maintain, hogwash…Russians were a pro-league, they received financial “consideration” to use the legal term in various ways. Even though the literally had a system where the best players always ended up on Red Army, doesn’t matter, they still should have been considered pros, their league was at least as good as pros in Sweden and other European countries.
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 22, 2011 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions
ONE SIMPLE QUESTION?
Did you believe the 1980 USA Olympic Team was a total upset?
If you answered sincerely the answer was YES.
Well why BECAUSE THE RUSSIANS were PROS and they beat the best in the world, led by one of the best goalies. If not then they just beat a bunch of amateurs.
Also, I’m getting old but I KNOW for a fact, every single Hockey media outlet at the time stated he was one of the best in the world. This only proves the point. I don’t think they were building VT reputation just to make USA’s victory more then what it was.
PS I hated the Russian teams, just like I hate Sidney, doesn’t change the fact he is one of the greatest players ever.
In loving memory;Dad thanks for making us Islanders fans, ACC 1918-2011
and Tretiak belongs in the HOCKEY HALL of FAME.
In loving memory;Dad thanks for making us Islanders fans, ACC 1918-2011
As I stated above...
the Russians retained their amatuer status, which should not have been allowed, of course they had a different system under communism, but aside from making a comparable salary with NHL players, they were pros….even though both the 1980 team USA and team Russia were classified as Amatuer, or all their players held amatuer status, the only real amatuer were team USA.
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 22, 2011 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes and I'll digress after this....
You are making my point, they were pros and as YOU stated above the Russians were as good as the Euro league (pros) and VT was one of the best of the best. Hence he belongs in the HOCKEY (not NHL) hall of fame.
Last point, I read many articles during the 70’s and 80’s and VT,Gerry Cheevers,Dryden were the best in the world, and I agree, not because they said so, I witnessed for myself and came to the same conclusion.
In loving memory;Dad thanks for making us Islanders fans, ACC 1918-2011
Even for a homer like me
Our ’goalies of the decade" list is pathetic.
disclaimer This will be my only negative post of the year.
"We can't get pushed around," Haley said. "What commentators say about us, that's their job. My job is to try and limit as many people who want to take liberties with our guys as possible."
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jul 20, 2011 12:24 AM EDT reply actions
Isn't it though?
But I think that’s in part a byproduct of having DiPietro, who reasonably was expected to be the workhorse for most of that decade.
As for the disclaimer: If you’re only making one negative post a year, you gotta save up your ammo!
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
Ozzie
I would take one like him in his form a few seasons ago over the bunch of pretenders we have now. Yea Poulin has potential and maybe Montoya might be OK+ but for this season the current bunch even with a top four big D and a very good offense is not enough for a #8 finish or better, especially this season when we need a real run for the good attendance and PR we need for a new building. Does anybody out there really feel differently? The puck and buck stops at the goal.
I will agree that
…having an Osgood-quality goalie would help the Isles to finish higher, but I think they can finish higher than 8th, especially with the acquisition of a top-4 D-man. Assuming that Streit is reasonably healthy, Isles already “added” one of the top 15 offensive defenseman in the league— one who is responsible defensively at that. Throw in Reasoner and Neiderreiter and instead of having 2.5 lines that can produce offensively (which the Isles had the 2nd half of last season, when they played roughly like an 8th-spot team), they will have 3.5 lines of production— plus a little more offensive zone time for everyone…. I admit this is a best-case scenario— that Isles are fighting for 4th-6th spot at the end of the season— but I think it is possible, especially with another solid defenseman…. Between Montoya, Nabokov, and Poulin, I think the goaltending will be good enough to give the Isles the opportunity.
by North Dakota Red Eagle on Jul 20, 2011 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Pretenders?
Montoya’s numbers last year were unreal and more than we could’ve expected out of a guy who was acquired for a 6th rounder.
GP W L OT Min. GA SA GAA PCT
21 9 5 5 1154 46 585 2.39 .921
Sure he’s not a proven NHL commodity yet, but I would totally sign up for that again.
Official choice of Lighthouse Dog #1.
by Fabtraption on Jul 20, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
What I don't like is media hype that Osgoode and the Wings were a Dynasty...No they were NOT
By the traditional hockey definition, a Dynasty is 3 or more cups in a row…Detriot has had a Dynasty team in the past, but the Yzerman, Lidstrom Wings never won three cups in a row. This rewriting the terms seems to have began with Edmonton, whose Oilers also never won 3 cups in a row. Pens more likely than not would have won 3 straight cups, but the Isles put the kabosh in that one after Volek’s game seven sudden death overtime goal in 93.
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 12:06 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
And that, sir, is why
I call the Oilers dynasty interruptus.
What the Red Wings have done is impressive, dominant, maybe almost impossible to duplicate even. But it’s not a dynasty.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
Agree 100%. Reserve dynasty for three-peats and better.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
I think 3peats are done in the 4 major sports..
NfL has never had 3 super bowl winners in a row.
The Yankess did it in 98,99 and 2000.
Our Isles were the last to do it in hockey.
NBA is the one sport it still might happen, and the one I follow the least, if at all. the The lakers were the last to do it? i don’t care, really.
"We can't get pushed around," Haley said. "What commentators say about us, that's their job. My job is to try and limit as many people who want to take liberties with our guys as possible."
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Jul 20, 2011 1:38 PM EDT reply actions
Then it is the end of the dynasty era in sports.
I have no problem with that, empires die and we now live in the democratic “parity” era.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
by Hockey1919 on Jul 20, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
so long as they don't call them Dynasty's if they haven't won 3 in a row
i don’t care…that honour should remain reserved for the few, it should not be watered-down…that only takes away from the great dynasties and what they accomplished, and i see no reason why they should have to put water in their wine.
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 1:56 PM EDT reply actions
if we have one dynasty per 10 years per 4 major pro-sports...
that really says something about the team…Pens should have had a dynasty in 93, but Isles kept them out of the club…
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 1:58 PM EDT reply actions
That's why 3 is the key. The double happens too often and the third is where teams trip up.
Oilers couldn’t do it,and as you said the Pens couldn’t do it either.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011
Another reason 1993 was so significant
Arbour > Bowman
Scrappy Turgeon-less Isles > stop Pens at two-peat
Ahhh, so much fun.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
forgot about that...Bowman and Arbour are close friends too
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jul 20, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep
And I’ve mentioned this a bunch of times, but in Arbour’s “Pioneers” episode he mentions how Bowman told him, “If you take the Islanders job, you’ll be in last place for 10 years.”
Ten years later he was winning his 4th Cup, and Bowman was discovering just how hard having his own ship in Buffalo was! Student bests the teacher.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
by Dominik on Jul 20, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Osgood trade was our downfall
OK, overstated — but I always thought Ozzie was really moved to clear the path for DiP, allowing Snow to keep the crease warm for him the rest of that year, so Rick didn’t have to compete with a brand-name attorney ascend to the throne meant for him. We’ve never really competitive since. Obviously, our return for Ozzie (Papineau now plays in Germany as a failed Devils farmhand sharpshooter) was an embarassment.
I think we should have signed him to a nice 2-year or 3-year deal back then (we offered 1); I think we might have had a playoff run in us, and Rick might have had more time to mature. Instead, Ottowa embarassed us, which Laviolette had predicted (he said he didn’t have the horses), then he was fired, and the rest is ugly history.
Not to say Ozzie would have beaten Ottowa that year (Snow played well). But I do think trading Ozzie put very premature end to the feel-good group of 2001-2002 we all still love so much.
We still have J. Colliton, which is nice.
Nassau Coliseum lost a veteran and an original Islander fan. ACC 1918-2011

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