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Goaltending 'Quality Starts' (via Hockey Prospectus) Explained and Applied to the 2010-2011 Islanders

Hey Frank, who are all those guys in the orange jerseys over there with outfits like ours?

[A Mikb and Keith Joint]

Hockey Prospectus has released their annual "Quality Starts" metric.  Often, we are fumbling through some significant gaps in statistical data in our analysis of goaltender play.  There are several confounds that can arise including PP/PK, team defense and injury.  It does not appear that the Quality Start metric exclusively accounts for 5 on 5 play (which in my opinion, it should) because let's face it, if you have a 20 shot night, but 8 of those are during three 5 on 3s, that is far different than a 20 shot night in which the other team does not have a power play at all.  The formula is somewhat a combination of the concepts Garik and Mored used in their arguments for goaltender assessment.  An explanation of the metric can be found here

After the jump, some of the key concepts, the best and worst of the league, and a statistical breakdown of this year's Islander sextet of netminders...because none made the 41 start minimum for inclusion in the sample.

Star-divide

The formula for the metric from Robert Vollman of Hockey Prospectus (Any bold emphasis mine):

Quality Starts are defined first and foremost by successfully blocking shots, which are usually referred to as Saves. Evaluating every single game this season, the median save percentage of a starting goalie is .912 percent. Successfully defending the net from goals .912 percent of the time can be defined as a Quality Start. The following table demonstrates that the odds of a team winning become very high when their goalie stops a higher-than-median percentage of shots, very low when the goalie fails to stop at least 88.5% of shots, and is essentially even in the middle.

Save percentage  Winning percentage

0.913 or better 0.777
0.900-0.912 0.536
0.885-0.899 0.503
0.884 or worse 0.246

This is expanded upon to account for the fact that sometimes, goaltenders do not have the chance to expand their shot sample size through no fault of their own.

To further refine the definition in that average range, we will award a Quality Start among goalies stopping between 88.5 percent and 91.2 percent of shots, depending on how many goals they let in. Since this is based on the number of shots the goalie faced on a particular night, which is largely outside the control of a goaltender, it may seem unfair. The idea is that on nights when the goalie is not up against a lot of shots, it is still considered a Quality Start when he's stopping at least an average number of the shots on goal.

Goals allowed Winning %
Under 3 .727
3 .140
Over 3 .397

When considering Quality Starts, the key number is 25%. Generally a team will only lose roughly 25% of the time their goalie earns a Quality Start, and likewise will somehow manage to secure the two points 25% of the time that their goalies fails.

This accounts for random times when a goaltender "played well and lost", or "played like crap and got lucky".

If you want to see something strange, consider the league leaders from Vollman on 3/25/09:

Goaltender GS QS GS%
Yann Danis 21 16 .76
Tim Thomas 48 33 .69
Henrik Lundqvist 60 40 .67
Martin Brodeur 20 13 .65

This is why sample size is sometimes crucial. Yann Danis has not may or may not have duplicated this stretch of play, however, he was Brodeur's backup the next year and may have lacked the 20 game requisite to qualify...or was so middle of the pack he wasn't featured.

Here are this year's top performers (Full Article Here) and some notables measured by quality starts and ordered by their percentage of quality starts to total starts. (Minimum 41 starts. Unfortunately, that excluded all Islander goaltending this season except as a percentage of Roloson's starts).  Also, please review the section on "wasted quality starts" that shows some of the teams that are bad concurrently with a goalie's quality start, and the section immediately following "lucky goalies" who are bailed out by their teams scoring a lot when they play badly.

Rank Goaltender GS QS QS%
1 Tim Thomas 55 40 .727
2 Roberto Luongo 60 41 .683
3 Pekka Rinne 64 43 .672
4 Sergei Bobrovski 52 34 .654
5 Anti Niemi 60 39 .650
8 Marc-Andre Fleury 62 39 .629
12 Ryan Miller 65 39 .600
17 Dwayne Roloson 54 31 .574
20 Martin Brodeur 54 30 .556
22 Henrik Lundqvist 67 37

.552

This was indeed surprising in some aspects.  It could have been assumed that Bobrovski and Miller and Lundqvist would have different positioning, while Thomas and Luongo seem aptly placed. There is a bit of a correlation also as to team standing and percentage of quality start.  Here is that breakdown (by conference rank).

Thomas/Boston (T4th total points East)
Luongo/Vancouver (1st West)
Rinne/Nahville (T4th West)
Bobrovski/Philadelphia (T2nd East)

The first non-playoff goaltender to show up on the list is Cam Ward at #13.  All of the playoff team's goaltenders are represented in the top 25 with Jimmy Howard bringing up the year at 25th.(.492 QS%)

Vollman similarly came up with a "Really Bad Start" (RBS) tracking system:

where a goalie fails to stop even 85% of the shots, leaving his team barely a 10% chance of winning. This year's leader is Brian Elliott, with 15 RBS out of 51 opportunities, taking his team right out of 29.4% of their games. Steve Mason (26.4%) and Miikka Kiprusoff (19.7%) had 14 RBS, with Khabibulin (26.1%), Dan Ellis (27.0%), Craig Anderson (20.4%) and Marc-Andre Fleury (16.1%) the only other goalies to blow at least 10. By percentage, the least reliable starters were Ty Conklin (7 RBS in 20 starts, the only goalie with more RBS than QS) and Curtis McElhinney (7 RBS in 22 starts).

Now for the Islander goaltenders.  (From here on out, we're turning it over to mikb.)

Goaltender GS QS QS% LS LS%
Rick DiPietro 26 10 .385 7 .269
Dwayne Roloson 20 12 .600 1 .050
Al Montoya 18 13 .722 0 .000
Kevin Poulin 7 5 .714 1 .143
Nathan Lawson 7 3 .429 1 .143
Mikko Koskinen 4 2 .500 2 .500

Now - with the now-standard disclaimers of Small Sample Size™ in our minds - what we see here will simply add more ammo to the burgeoning arsenals of those gunning for RDP.  He was able to give the Isles a reasonable shot at winning a scant 38.5% of the time: in his 26 starts, he only had ten games where he held opponents to two or fewer goals, or stopped better than 91% of the opposing shots.  And seven times, he pretty much melted down: he allowed four or more goals, and saved less than 85.1% of the enemy shots.  (He had another game with 17 saves on 20 shots, so he barely avoided Lousy Start #8.)

Roli was reliable 60% of the time, and dreadful only once in twenty outings.  Montoya had no Lousy Starts and a sparkling 72.2% of his starts were Quality.  (Sign him long term!!!1!eleven!)  Our three-headed emergency goalie went 10-for-18 on Quality, and half of the other eight starts qualified as Lousy.  (Mikko is our Goalie with the Curl on His Forehead - either very very good, or horrid.)

Considering our sample sizes are so unsatisfactory, I went back to DiPietro's last two full seasons.  In 2006-07, he was Quality 36 times out of 62 (.581) and Lousy only 7 times (.113); he had three games right on the border (4+ goals and .852-.857 sv%).  In 2007-08, he went 30/63 in QS (.476) with 8 Lousy Starts (.127) and 3 borderline starts.

Roloson, since leaving the Island for Tampa, has posted Quality Starts 21 of 34 times (.618) while being Lousy 7 times (.206), and borderline once.  So his QS rate was similar to his work as an Islander, both this season and last (28/50 QS, 56%, and 9/50 LS, 18%, with two on the border).

Based on these and other numbers, it's tempting to anoint El Cubano Grande and Le Poulin our new Smitty and Chico (or Melanson, or Hrudey, or Healy, depending on when you joined Islander Country).  It's just too soon, however.  There have been plenty of goalies who have looked excellent over ten or twenty games and turned out to be mortal, or worse, as full-time starters.  If you have the heart, look at this last table: 

Goaltender GS QS QS% LS LS%
Mystery A 24 18 .750 0 .000
Mystery B 25 20 .800 2 .080
Mystery C 66 39 .591 12 .182
Mystery D 36 16 .444 7 .194
Mystery E 53 23 .434 13 .245
Mystery F 108 54 .500 25 .231

Anyone would love to have Mystery Goalies A and B... except, as you've no doubt guessed, there's a catch.  As it turns out, Mystery Goalie A is Vesa Toskala in San Jose in 2003-04.  Work like this got him the regular gig in Toronto, where he proceeded in 2007-08 to become Mystery Goalie C and Mystery Goalie E.

B/D/F?  Again, same guy - Columbus' Steve Mason, whose first 25 career starts essentially won him the Calder (line B).  His 36 remaining starts of that season are line D - in the SAME SEASON he went from giving his team a chance to win just about every time out, to doing so less than half the time.  Line F is Mason's two seasons since, and it's fairly ugly stuff.  Basically, a guy can go from Montoyan to DiPietrid seemingly overnight.  We all want to see one of our promising guys succeed; what we have above is a hope, but not a certainty.

Comment 60 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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Good stuff, sirs.

It’s very important to remember sample size.

You know what the good thing is, though? It’s a numbers game; while it’d be nice to see BOTH Poulin and Montoya replicate their debuts on Long Island, the truth is if EITHER does, New York has found a #1 goaltender.

by kfallon2 on Apr 22, 2011 12:13 AM EDT reply actions  

Indeed

Unfortunately, we could only use the samples we had. I was impressed mikb went back in time with DP. I should link the source articles (all of them) above too so that people can see who has maintained their stats over a few years. (I think there were only a couple of guys who did it). Obviously, they’ve only been doing this a couple of years, so there isn’t a wealth of data, but it can be back tracked if you use yahoo and go to the game by game stats…they let you do about the last 10 years.

I still would like to see this stuff combined with some other variables PKs/times SH/sh sv% etc…but this stats stuff doesn’t come all that easy to me…it will take me forever.

"Gervais...he looks danger in the fist with his face!" JPinVA
Website: Lighthousehockey.com Twitter: @KeithLHHockey

by Keith Quinn on Apr 22, 2011 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

And also

thank you!

"Gervais...he looks danger in the fist with his face!" JPinVA
Website: Lighthousehockey.com Twitter: @KeithLHHockey

by Keith Quinn on Apr 22, 2011 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

seconded on the thanks

As far as the past research, it only seemed fair – like any reputable Doctor Who fan could tell you, if there’s no sample size now, gotta go where the sample sizes were.

Now, I would also like a larger sample size of samples (if that makes sense) to be certain of what I’m about to speculate… I also need to have the league-average sv% and scoring levels year-by-year if I go back far enough: obviously, a guy in the go-go 80’s would deserve QS credit for something like a 24-for-27 game. But in general, it seems like a credible year from your starter is 60% or above on the Quality Starts. As far as Lousy Starts… that’s a little more volatile from what I’ve seen, and a guy can have a lot of BOTH kinds of starts, especially if you use Vollman’s stricter measurements. (I ruled out some games, like Lawson getting lifted after one save on three shots in five minutes.) And the margin between stopping 91+% of the shots and a great chance to win, vs. 87% of the shots and a poor start, can literally come down to ONE stop. (21 out of 23 vs. 20 out of 23, for example.) That’s the kind of margin an NHL keeper works with every day.

What I did see from what little I’ve done so far is that a goalie can suffer a bad stretch and rack up three or four LS in a row, and then roll off a whole bunch of QS without a mis-step. But I don’t know quite enough to be able to say how repeatable a skill it is to avoid Lousy Starts… the Quality Start thing looks more repeatable, but again, beyond the lockout it’s hard to have the correct data to make a judgment (I cheated a wee bit using Toskala’s 03-04).

We may be in the box, but you get the penalty.
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Non-hockey scribblings at nightflyblog

by mikb on Apr 22, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great work all around, but the Mystery Goalie table in particular is downright fascinating

I think I qualitatively understand the issues with Mason, but what in the sam hell happened to Vesa Toskala?

…And in what form will Al Montoya present himself come October?

The bottom line for me, as always, is: Goalies are crazy and not to be trusted. (Sorry mikb.)

Lighthouse Hockey: Send us your cold, your poor, your healthy goalies.

by Dominik on Apr 22, 2011 1:47 AM EDT reply actions  

On Toskala

Supposedly he continually clashed with Montreal’s goalie coach who has a fist full of Rings and has taught some of the best. So his style basically became a mix of what he wanted to do and what h was being taught. Meanwhile his glove hand was always awful.

"had to take a Campbell and wipe my Bettman" Skeeterman
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.

by Mark D on Apr 22, 2011 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

He's *really* an ass if he spent his time as a Leaf clashing with Montreal's coach ;)

That’s right, I remember now that Allaire and him didn’t seem to get along. Hey, maybe the request to change his game messed him up for good…but it looked like he was spiraling downward even before Allaire got there, so…ToskaLOL.

Lighthouse Hockey: Send us your cold, your poor, your healthy goalies.

by Dominik on Apr 22, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

goalies are crazy and not to be trusted

Heh. I don’t trust myself either.

We may be in the box, but you get the penalty.
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Non-hockey scribblings at nightflyblog

by mikb on Apr 22, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

mikb

Are you saying you are/were a goalie?

We are all Islanders, even if we are in Jersey!

by Russel Ginart on Apr 22, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

are

And be advised – not ice hockey. I’m too old to give myself airs. Most other folks have heard my many disclaimers before I try to analyze things going on with a highly-trained professional. My only consolation is that I can hardly be worse than Keith Jones and Jeremy Roenick on the Versus Intermission Report.

We may be in the box, but you get the penalty.
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Non-hockey scribblings at nightflyblog

by mikb on Apr 22, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOL

Keith Jones and Jeremy Roenick on the Versus I agree THEY ARE BRUTAL! My blessings to you that is still tending the pipes. I hung up the skates and goalie pads back in 1993.

We are all Islanders, even if we are in Jersey!

by Russel Ginart on Apr 22, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

O/T

Did you HEAR them last night? My stars, they made the whole room stupider by their presence. I don’t believe I’m saying this – but I actually am looking forward to the NBC deal, Milbury or no Milbury.

We may be in the box, but you get the penalty.
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Non-hockey scribblings at nightflyblog

by mikb on Apr 22, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Very nice read and post. I'm guessing this quality starts thing is going to be another staple in goalie comparisons.

Very interesting, nice to see we are getting more statistical information from the brainiacs out there, lol. And this is a good idea. And well put together Quinn and Mikb. Also deciphering goalies is very puzzling, they are a different breed of nhl player, lol. And on that note, holy crap, didn’t realize cam ward started 74gms this year and still played at a very high level(.923 save percentage, wonder how many quality starts? lol). He’s underappreciated/underrated by many in my eyes.

Proud Islanders fan, the organization that iced the greatest team to ever play the game, whom won 4 consecutive cups. I'm bleeding Blue and Orange.
Let's go Islanders! Beep...Beep...Beep.Beep.Beep.
Datsyuk IS the best player in the nhl

by OzzyFan on Apr 22, 2011 2:22 AM EDT reply actions  

"Staple in goalie comparisons"

I don’t know if I’d go that far — in Vollman’s explanation he said GVT and save % are still more important indicators.

Quality starts is more an attempt — as with baseball — to get away from the tendency to look at how many “Wins” a goalie has and go off that. Since a goalie has zero control over how many goals his team scores.

Lighthouse Hockey: Send us your cold, your poor, your healthy goalies.

by Dominik on Apr 22, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Anne Heche should do a remake movie...

and they can call it the Bi Iconic Woman.

Lighthouse Hockey: where "you better check yourself before you rec yourself" -bobl
If your life isn't pathetic enough already, follow me on twitter @JPinVA

by JPinVA on Apr 22, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

We have the money...

…we have the technology…. but do we have the TIME?

Lighthouse Hockey: where "you better check yourself before you rec yourself" -bobl
If your life isn't pathetic enough already, follow me on twitter @JPinVA

by JPinVA on Apr 22, 2011 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

JP did you get my email?

Regarding Chris Botta witholding his vote for Grabner?

We are all Islanders, even if we are in Jersey!

by Russel Ginart on Apr 22, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

I've been boycotting...

…my laptop at home. I’ve been spending too much time on the one I get paid to spend time on, so I’m trying not to spend too much time on the one I can avoid for free….

hmmm… I might have to incorporate that into my next wedding vows… like I’d ever do THAT again. (sorry… just thinking out loud)

I will check it out when I get home tonight.

Lighthouse Hockey: where "you better check yourself before you rec yourself" -bobl
If your life isn't pathetic enough already, follow me on twitter @JPinVA

by JPinVA on Apr 22, 2011 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

ROFL

Priceless!!!

We are all Islanders, even if we are in Jersey!

by Russel Ginart on Apr 22, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are they using parts from the Acme Company?

Seriously, it’s like Wile E Coyote does the requisitions.

We may be in the box, but you get the penalty.
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Non-hockey scribblings at nightflyblog

by mikb on Apr 22, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Maybe we need Foghorn Legghorn as goalie coach...

“Boy, I say boy, y’all needs to stay in yo crease…”

Lighthouse Hockey: where "you better check yourself before you rec yourself" -bobl
If your life isn't pathetic enough already, follow me on twitter @JPinVA

by JPinVA on Apr 22, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pre-injury RDP

I found it interesting that I believed Rick was on the verge of stardom, but this stat suggests that at his best he was mediocre.

NOWHERE Nearly enough defensemen to last through the injury bug

by since70too on Apr 22, 2011 6:50 AM EDT reply actions  

I think this is the big one for the "lying eyes" meme

Sometimes, the goalie gets “lucky”. The team wins 5-4 or 3-2 because the team bails them out, and we don’t care/forget that the game wasn’t that great. They did enough for the team to win. When you look at Jimmy Howard with less than 50% of his starts being good…I mean, the Wings won what 50+? Last year he may have been better. I was surprised that Roloson wasn’t a little better too. I would like to expand this over a couple of seasons at some point just to see who is consistently among the elite because one season doesn’t tell you a whole lot either (much less the 7-26 game samples we have for the Isles). Maybe next year I’ll do that to compare our guys at least.

"Gervais...he looks danger in the fist with his face!" JPinVA
Website: Lighthousehockey.com Twitter: @KeithLHHockey

by Keith Quinn on Apr 22, 2011 7:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

I still think he helped to keep a medicore team afloat more often then not.

"had to take a Campbell and wipe my Bettman" Skeeterman
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.

by Mark D on Apr 22, 2011 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I think

a big part of that had to do with him being anointed the Team USA goalie as well. It hyped him up more than he should have been, when in reality there wasn’t a whole lot of competition for the job at that point.

by afrosupreme on Apr 22, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

RDP trajectory

Count me in as someone who in 2007-08 (Nolan’s last year, when a weak team was in a playoff spot on Dec. 31), thought DiPietro had arrived as a legit starter on his way to any top-10 argument.

He still overplayed things and his puck wanderlust still needed reigning in, but to me it looked like he was putting everything together, and I don’t think the team would’ve been in that position without his first half. Granted, a half season isn’t crap for a goalie sample size, and I never would’ve though three years later he’d still need bungee cords to keep him to the posts.

But suffice to say I thought he was on the verge without considering his contract, Olympic appearance, or any other factor (including the fact I’ve never been a big fan).

Lighthouse Hockey: Send us your cold, your poor, your healthy goalies.

by Dominik on Apr 22, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ditto this
I thought he was on the verge without considering his contract, Olympic appearance, or any other factor (including the fact I’ve never been a big fan).

Whether it was true belief or (contractual) wishful thinking is debatable, but I did belie dat.

"Gervais...he looks danger in the fist with his face!" JPinVA
Website: Lighthousehockey.com Twitter: @KeithLHHockey

by Keith Quinn on Apr 22, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

His 06-07 was, from this standpoint, a little better

I mean, it’s a little under 60% but it’s acceptable.

We had this conversation in the emails among the writers… One thing I speculated, and I would like to open it to everyone here – following his good 03-04, why didn’t DiPietro play in the AHL or overseas during the lockout? Why did he just take that year off? In 05-06 he was mediocre, as if he had to get himself back up to NHL speed, and then he was good the next year and all right the year after (that’s when he was first injured).

We may be in the box, but you get the penalty.
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Non-hockey scribblings at nightflyblog

by mikb on Apr 22, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Speculative

Based on the Milbury/Botta interview, I would think hemay have been into “working out” more than “technical” aspects and practice and was essentially toiling around. He apparently was noticeably bigger at one point, but I can’t remember what year it was that Milbury was talking about.

The only real reasons I can think of that he didn’t play are arrogance, apathy or contract. I’m sure many would have given him the position if he wanted it, but I assume he wasn’t hurting for money, wanted to protect himself from injury toward the end of his contract (wasn’t that the year he was signed for 1 year because Bettman was talking Wang out of the 20 year deal?) so that he could negotiate well. Or maybe didn’t want to play in an inferior or dangerous league and thought that he was good enough to catch up.

"Gervais...he looks danger in the fist with his face!" JPinVA
Website: Lighthousehockey.com Twitter: @KeithLHHockey

by Keith Quinn on Apr 22, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good theory

I’d buy that. The quest to build a more buff Jersey Shore-applicable DiPietro.

Lighthouse Hockey: Send us your cold, your poor, your healthy goalies.

by Dominik on Apr 22, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

LMAO!

Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)

by TheMetalChick on Apr 22, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I mean, it’s a little under 60% but it’s acceptable.

I wonder how much of that was accumulated before the injuries hit? Even before the fateful, “I [PAP’d] my hip again” moment at the All-Star Skills Competition, I remember thinking in mid-winter, “uh, he’s playing hurt.”

It’s really, really painful to think back now on how many times I would say that over the following four years.

Lighthouse Hockey: Send us your cold, your poor, your healthy goalies.

by Dominik on Apr 22, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Didn't he hurt himself in 07-08?

It was 08-09 and 09-10 that he never played because he was always rehabbing. I could be just remembering wrong now… I mean, that was forty-seven injuries ago. I need a laminated chart to keep up.

We may be in the box, but you get the penalty.
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Non-hockey scribblings at nightflyblog

by mikb on Apr 22, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Try and pick a year

he DIDN’T hurt himself….I got the under.

"Gervais...he looks danger in the fist with his face!" JPinVA
Website: Lighthousehockey.com Twitter: @KeithLHHockey

by Keith Quinn on Apr 22, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, my bad

So should say “the following three years” — unless I was pr*j*ct*ng next year, which … oh dear.

Lighthouse Hockey: Send us your cold, your poor, your healthy goalies.

by Dominik on Apr 22, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

go go Islander goalies

Great stuff here, that mystery chart was awesome. Before I even read who the goalies were I had speculations of goalies with meltdowns. Goalies are a strange breed now a days, it is very rare for goalies to have complete and successful back to back seasons. It seems every year, goalies are tossed out and another one comes in or there are maybe two or three goalies battling out. This should not really be the case for the most important position in hockey. I am all for healthy competition, but just like the rest of the team, the goalie position needs consistency. Albeit if they are terrible, than that is another story.

How many consistently good goalies are out there right now? It would be interesting to see the breakdown for the past 3 – 5 years on goaltenders in the league.

Not even talking about the playoffs, but a goalie in the playoffs can make or break a team. Luongo is a case where he has never really excelled in carrying the team, he has played well in games, but certainly not consistently. Why is this? What happens to these guys? Its not his first go around. Then you have a guy like Roloson or Ward in 07 that carry the load and will their teams to make the finals.

Theres a lot to this position. As a former goalie (small stint) I can empathize with what it means to carry a team and how it feels when you are lit up, even if the defense around you is sinking around you. It still gets to you.

by ghalbart on Apr 22, 2011 8:12 AM EDT reply actions  

I bet the names on that list would include guys like

Brodeur
Luongo
Lundqvist
Bryzgalov (sp)
Miller

I think the moral of the story is don’t fall head over heels based on one season and don’t panic when a season goes bad. Case in point: Tim Thomas. Amazing season leads to a Vezina Trophy and a multi-year contract at big salary. Next season he stinks the jint out and they commit a multi-year deal to Rask, but they can’t trade Thomas at that salary for a bag of pucks. And then what happens? Another Vezina Trophy wothy season from Thomas and now they’ve got way too much money tied up in goaltending.

There's a mountain of buoyant nostalgia under this team and it's going to erupt like Vesuvius when the Islanders are back in playoff contention.... Count on it.

by Nova Scotia Isles Fan on Apr 22, 2011 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

I really think the position has become homogenized

Back in the day, you had a bunch of different styles of goalies (with smaller, weaker, less responsive equipment) and very few goalie coaches, so these guys were kind of on their own to separate themselves. The naturally great ones did.

Today they’ve become quite homogenized — even though there are differences in styles (pure butterfly, hybrid, blocking style, etc. etc.) the differences between them are very minute. So I think the variation we see from year to year, outside of injury causes, is much more due to the team playing in front of them.

In this full-on butterfly era there’s essentially been only one goalie who has stood out head and shoulders above the rest, and he was not a butterfly guy but rather an all-out freestylist: Hasek. To me the rest are by and large very good goalies playing good technique but playing the percentages, so the differences are small but team play can make them appear large from year to year.

That’s my theory anyway.

Lighthouse Hockey: Send us your cold, your poor, your healthy goalies.

by Dominik on Apr 22, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

DP is terrible, enough said.

by ChryWheatGod on Apr 22, 2011 9:45 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Nicely done...

QS% needs to factor in GAIFFM… Goals allowed in the first five minutes. If you only give up two goals, but they are on the first 3 shots in the first four minutes it kind of deflates the team early.

There is also the IFACGU factor…. becasue nobody has more I’ve Fallen And Can’t Get Up moments than our Emblem Health Poster Child (I forgot who tagged him with that, but I really like it).

Lighthouse Hockey: where "you better check yourself before you rec yourself" -bobl
If your life isn't pathetic enough already, follow me on twitter @JPinVA

by JPinVA on Apr 22, 2011 10:46 AM EDT reply actions  

Agreed

There are a million little variables and confounds that get in the way at times. For example, we play the Devils 6-8x a year (depending on which jackass changes sheathing in a particular year). If you go down 2 early, they certainly will clampeth the trappeth down. So now you finish with 22/24 svs and most of the shots were dump-ins at the net or bad angle shots because they are “making the safe play”…did you have a quality start (especially if the goals were because you were stickhandling behind your net)?

Another factor would be goaltender turnovers/unforced errors that result in icreased zone possession and goals (not immediately after the turnover). When you factor in those few things, I’m sure DP looks even worse…however, it may balance out with “he robbed him” type plays. There is so much interdependence on hockey that it seems like you can find a bit of a flaw in any metric.

Even in Corsi, I feel like Hornick wrote something that the Isles were actually well below .500 when they outhshot an opponent this year. That seems to be typical of young team’s though. When they’re clicking, they’re good…when nothing is going right, it doesn’t matter how many shots you throw at the net, you’re snakebit. Look at our Philly games this year, great chances-stoned by Bobrovski most nights.

"Gervais...he looks danger in the fist with his face!" JPinVA
Website: Lighthousehockey.com Twitter: @KeithLHHockey

by Keith Quinn on Apr 22, 2011 11:18 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

This is another reason...

why I beleive my eyes more than the stats… In the glory years the Isles [almost] standard score was 5-2…and they’d get outshot almost nightly against inferior teams. The bottom line was that they WON… and when the playoffs rolled around they were READY. Those are really the only things that matter…
We have such a need to quantitate everything… at least it gives us something to talk about while awesome hockey is being played by other teams.

Lighthouse Hockey: where "you better check yourself before you rec yourself" -bobl
If your life isn't pathetic enough already, follow me on twitter @JPinVA

by JPinVA on Apr 22, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

this is actually why I'm turning to the Stat Side

I’m not saying that there’s no such thing as a dagger goal or anything… but here we’re dealing with aggregate, and those things tend to even out over time, and become a dangerous basis for evaluating play – especially if you’re trying to make a future decision based on what you’re seeing in front of you. So in one game, a terrible goal immediately after a great play can be the final nail… Fighting back from 3-0 to 3-2, and then going right down 4-2, for example. BUT – if you go down 4-2 on an awesome offensive play or a howling softie from your goalie, makes no difference to the scoreboard. And in a way, it’s no difference to the team. You’re going to be just as demoralized if it’s your fault or if a guy just walks through everyone and makes a glorious play to score.

Or again, with going down 2-0 in the opening minute. The Isles did that against Philly to close the season and came back to actually lead 4-3. That wasn’t a problem. The rest of the game was the problem. Or Boston last night, going down 3-1 by looking for all the world like Keystone Kops on the two goals. (I counted FOUR horrible plays in four seconds by their defense on the second goal, it was like Montreal was running a drill in practice.) They won that game, and it wasn’t because Thomas “dialed it up.” He could dial as high as he liked, he wasn’t scoring any goals, and he wasn’t alone on the doorstep converting rebounds. (The Canadiens did a much better job covering the Boston crease than they did their own.)

Anyway…

Players evaluate those things on the moment, so they have every right to talk about turning momentum and pulling together and being clutch. That’s how the individual game and the individual moments in a game are experienced, and it’s a valid way to talk about it. I feel the same way. The 500-pound elephant in the room, however, is that making roster and contract decisions on that basis is a good way to completely screw up a franchise. One awesome moment is not predictive. The underlying numbers over 100 games are predictive. Because of sheer dumb luck and the fallibility of man, it’s not determinative – I think sometimes that “eyes rulz, stats droolz” arguments turn on that distinction – that a reasonable prediction carries 100% certainty and any exception proves that the whole approach is useless.

I really think that’s a false distinction. We need our eyes and we enjoy the games with our hearts… but we also need our brains to make sense of what we’re seeing over the long haul. Eyes would say that Toskala was an excellent goalie investment, and that’s how you get 07-08 and 08-09 in Toronto. Eyes say that Mason’s the Next Big Thing – and he gets a Calder while the Blue Jackets get 144 games of wondering what the heck happened to the guy.

We may be in the box, but you get the penalty.
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Non-hockey scribblings at nightflyblog

by mikb on Apr 22, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Word

Indeed. These playoffs alone are such great examples — although even still, they represent instances where the goalie ultimately “won” but didn’t deserve to. The trap with trusting “eyes” in these cases is those incidents are so much more memorable, they stand out, especially if you’re prone to a certain orientation with a player. (For example: Frans has never touched a fly, much less committed a turnover. I know this.)

But there’s one other angle on this that we can never know but which I enjoy thinking about: Teammates are humans with biased eyes, too. I know they are prone to stick up for their teammates and think the best — you almost have to for sanity and survival — but I also know they can reach a point where inside they’re not buying what they’re telling themselves. Kind of like when a coach “loses a team” but to a lesser degree of severity.

I enjoy the stat side for the objective “proof” angle, but the other sides make for fun debate and interpretation. Some stat fundamentalists have no room for psychology, but I think that’s only because it’s not quantifiable — not because it isn’t a factor.

Lighthouse Hockey: Send us your cold, your poor, your healthy goalies.

by Dominik on Apr 22, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Art v Science

I respect science, but I enjoy art so much more.
I want my doctor to use science to cure me, but I can be healed by Stevie Ray Vaughn… without the co-pay.
I want Snow (or any GM) to pore over stats as the primary filter to determine the best fits for the team…. but when I buy a jersey it’s for the guy that makes me stand up and cheer. When those two things meet you get Michael Grabner.
In a team sport, especially where you have 6 independent agents acting and affecting each other, it is hard to quantify the performance of the individual… though I will admit the advanced stats are making it easier. It makes for good conversation, and we can all play CSI-Uniondale through the second act, but what makes everything work is not quantifying the individuals, but improving their performance as a team…
What happens next year if Montoya loses his confidence for 10-20 games… your stats are still correct looking back, but that HUMAN BEING has changed. It’s all just fun and games until your goalie loses his confidence… then it’s just fun!

I’m not saying that there isn’t room for both… but I like the passion part of sports so much more than the counting numbers.
I did think this was a good read though.

Lighthouse Hockey: where "you better check yourself before you rec yourself" -bobl
If your life isn't pathetic enough already, follow me on twitter @JPinVA

by JPinVA on Apr 22, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

"Scheduling"

for god sake

"Gervais...he looks danger in the fist with his face!" JPinVA
Website: Lighthousehockey.com Twitter: @KeithLHHockey

by Keith Quinn on Apr 22, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would so love a massive matrix that incorporates all those little variables

It should fall into some overall Psychology Quotient. As in: How much do your mistakes f*$% with your teammates’ heads? Because though it doesn’t show up in any known stats, there is a difference in how a team responds to a “here we go again” goalie’s mistake and a “damn, he bails us out all the time, it’s time for us to return the favor” goalie’s mistake.

Lighthouse Hockey: Send us your cold, your poor, your healthy goalies.

by Dominik on Apr 22, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

I would love this too

but it would literally take forever. There may be a bunch of that kind of stuff (somewhat comparable) in the media guide link. (Up 1, Down 1 etc)

"Gervais...he looks danger in the fist with his face!" JPinVA
Website: Lighthousehockey.com Twitter: @KeithLHHockey

by Keith Quinn on Apr 22, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec'd for the "here we go again"

Butchie: It looks like Rick DiPietro will be getting the start tonight Howie.
Jiggs: You’re never gonna figure this out are you lil’ buddy… but you’re right… Rickey will be starting for the first time on the homestand. Rick has a chance for the franchise lead in HWGA mistakes. With one more out of the crease turnover he’ll be passing Pat Price’s record for lazy trips… and that should give him the Islander lead for a long time as his closest trailer is Roman Hamrlik’s hit from behind along the boards
Butchie: Jiggs, when did you get here.
Jiggs: we’ll be right back after these words from Bob’s.
(BREAK)
Jiggs: Goring, who did you have to not sleep with to get this job?

Lighthouse Hockey: where "you better check yourself before you rec yourself" -bobl
If your life isn't pathetic enough already, follow me on twitter @JPinVA

by JPinVA on Apr 22, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Additional strange Luongo context

dtolensky Daniel Tolensky
For his career, Luongo is 7-10, 3.56 GAA, .887 SVP vs Chicago & 13-9, 1.94 GAA, .934 SVP vs Not-Chicago @FarhanLaljiTSN @TSNBobMcKenzie

So, in this case, a guy has 17 games against one team, and only 22 against all others lifetime. When you think about it in these terms, he may be facing the one team that “has his number” which is skewing his playoff “clutchitude”. Think of it if DP played 38 games a year against Philadelphia (where he’s been pretty awful). It’s just a weird breakdown of GP.
The only other teams he has played are:
‘06-’07 Dal 7 gms, 7 extremely quality starts (1 game was 6+periods with 72svs). Anaheim (won cup) 5 games, 2 qual starts, 1 gm with 2 of 3 being PP goals, (2 games that went to double OT) (7ppga 10gms)
‘08-’09 STL 4 gms (4qs ..961, 1.00, .923 ,959) Chicago 6 games (Conference finalist lost to Det) (2 qs, 1 game 3ppg, 1 game 2ppg) (Total 9ppga 10 gms)
‘09-’10 LA 6gms (3qs PPG in series 2,2,3,2,1,0) Chicago 6 games (won Cup)(2qs, 1 gm 2ppg, 1gm 4ppg) (17ppga 10 gms)
’10-11 5gms (2qs) (5ppga)

It looks like Vancouver’s PK sucks in the playoffs…they should fix that. That’s atrocious.

"Gervais...he looks danger in the fist with his face!" JPinVA
Website: Lighthousehockey.com Twitter: @KeithLHHockey

by Keith Quinn on Apr 22, 2011 6:19 PM EDT reply actions  

I really don't wanna open this cookie jar, but do what Lu's regular season career numbers against the hawks or can we get them?

Hell, I’ll just run a few years myself by doing a little work for Lu’s regular season stats against the hawks:
06-07: 4gms totals: 111shots, 3goals allowed=.973 save percentage
07-08: 4gms totals: 98shots, 8goals allowed=.918 save percentage
08-09: 3gms totals: 91shots, 7goals allowed=.923 save percentage
09-10: 4gms totals: 95shots, 9goals allowed= .905 save percentage
10-11: 4gms totals: 129shots, 8goals allowed=.938 save percentage

Looks like he owns the hawks in the regular season for the most part over the past few years, seems like he just “chokes” in the playoffs. Just gotta defend my side of the argument. lol

Proud Islanders fan, the organization that iced the greatest team to ever play the game, whom won 4 consecutive cups. I'm bleeding Blue and Orange.
Let's go Islanders! Beep...Beep...Beep.Beep.Beep.
Datsyuk IS the best player in the nhl

by OzzyFan on Apr 23, 2011 3:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

"do you know" typo in bold

Proud Islanders fan, the organization that iced the greatest team to ever play the game, whom won 4 consecutive cups. I'm bleeding Blue and Orange.
Let's go Islanders! Beep...Beep...Beep.Beep.Beep.
Datsyuk IS the best player in the nhl

by OzzyFan on Apr 23, 2011 3:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

…owns…in the regular season… seems like he just "chokes" in the playoffs

And he is doing nothing to rectify that reputation, is he!
(Sorry semi if youre reading this)

Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)

by TheMetalChick on Apr 24, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

nah, it was inevitable

I really think I’m mushing the poor guy. The moment I defend anything it blows up, melts down, or breaks.

Last night, for example – Schneider pulls a DP on the first two Chicago goals, but all anyone can talk about is Luongo in overtime. Lambert (admittedly not the brightest star in the night sky) talked about how odd he looked flopping on the point shot. The point shot was tipped! Lu made an awesome first save, and then the same defender that Smith outmuscled to tip the shot, outmuscled him again to bat in the rebound.

I’m almost afraid of what will happen if Chicago pulls this off. It could be 1-0 in quad-OT and it won’t matter.

We may be in the box, but you get the penalty.
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Non-hockey scribblings at nightflyblog

by mikb on Apr 25, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think people definitely err in glossing over the tip factor

But I still think it’s bad for an NHL goaltender to end up face down like that. Maybe he knew the shots was coming in through traffic so he overwound up his physical coil to make sure no matter what, as soon as he spots the puck he’s getting that blocker up there. But I don’t want my goalie going down for a save, even a high-arm reaction one, and ending up face down. I don’t think in-form Luongo looks like that.

Lighthouse Hockey: Send us your cold, your poor, your healthy goalies.

by Dominik on Apr 25, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

For the record, I said that before "the tip"

Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)

by TheMetalChick on Apr 25, 2011 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

The tip

was kind of key because he ended up falling because he had to lunge.

That “same defender” was Daniel Sedin, and boy did he look awful on that play. He essentially contributed nothing right there. Blame him more than Luongo to be honest.

by afrosupreme on Apr 25, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

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1979-80


May 24, 1980: Tonelli to Nystrom. At long last, the steady build of the New York Islanders from expansion doormat to surprise semifinalist to annual contender reaches the promised land: Buoyed by a late season trade for Butch Goring that gave the team the depth up the middle GM Bill Torrey had been seeking, the Islanders knock off the Philadelphia Flyers in six games.

The victory justified the faith in coach Al Arbour who guided them from their second season to their first Stanley Cup seven seasons later. The Islanders would not be the first expansion team to win the Stanley Cup, but they would be the only one capable of a dynasty.

1980-81


May 21, 1981: This time it was much easier. After falling to "only" 91 points in the 1979-80 season, the Islanders returned to their division title tradition, piling up 110 points -- a whole 13 points over second-place Philadelphia.

Between the quarterfinals (where they beat the upstart Oilers in six games) and the finals, the Islanders reeled off eight consecutive wins -- with a four-game sweep of archrival Rangers in between. As they defeated the Minnesota North Stars in five games for their second Cup, their goal difference in the final was a combined +10.

1981-82


May 16, 1982: Another year, another landslide title. The Islanders won the Patrick Division by a whopping 26 points over the second-place Rangers, and were seven points clear of their nearest competition for the President's Trophy, the still-not-quite-ripe Edmonton Oilers.

A first-round scare against the Pittsburgh Penguins turned in the Isles' favor thanks to John Tonelli's heroics, and a true dynasty was on its way: Past the Rangers in six games, then an eight-game sweep of the Quebec Nordiques and Vancouver Canucks to run away with the Stanley Cup.

1982-83


May 17, 1983: Not so fast, whipper-snappers. The Edmonton Oilers' steadily rising challenge for league supremacy took them all the way to the finals for the first time, where the New York Islanders summarily dispatched them in a four-game sweep. For the Islanders, the Dynasty was secured. For the Oilers, it was a powerful lesson in where talent ends and the demands of playoff hockey begin.

Four years, four Cups, 16 consecutive playoff series wins (a record that would grow to 19 until the rematch with the Oilers the following year). Mike Bossy scored 60 goals yet again, and Wayne Gretzky became acquainted with Billy Smith's crease.


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