Hitting, Toughness: Why I'm changing my mind on their importance
by Keith Quinn on Nov 21, 2011 2:14 PM EST
in Big Picture Musings
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PrintQuite a bit has been made of the Islanders' collective toughness (or lack thereof) for much of the last few seasons. (Save for the bit of last year that saw Trevor Gillies, Zenon Konopka, Micheal Haley, Matt Martin and Travis Hamonic in the same lineup due to injury). Toughness has been talked about in any number of ways including fighting, hitting, "getting to the dirty areas," taking contact to make plays, winning battles on the boards and of course, hitting.
My initial stance on the "hitting" aspect of the game is that it is not as important as playmaking and goal scoring. While I stand firm on that, something that Billy Jaffe and Ken Daneyko said during Satuday's "Hockey Night Live" stuck with me: The Islanders not having an "identity."
While generally, this speaks to narrative I don't buy into, they may have a point. If the Islanders were scoring and winning, they would have an identity. As it stands, and as last year bore out as well, they don't do much in the way of winning or scoring right now. So they have to "work hard" and "be tough to play against"...like they did at the tail end of 2010-11. Now that the toughness is gone, their identity is "bad hockey team" (at least for right now), and they don't look tough to play against...whether bounces are going their way or not.
A look at the "hitting" numbers after the jump.
The first thing that bears mentioning is that the Islanders have played less than every team in the league, which drives their stats down a little bit. Initially, (not realizing NHL.com tracked this) I reviewed the Yahoo game boxscores and counted game by game stats. (*Note also that many of the NHL.com "totals" did not match the game by game adding of the Yahoo boxscores...but they are close).
The highlighted rows are games the Islanders outhit their opponents.
The first thing that struck me was that the Isles have outhit their opponents in 64.7% of their games (11/17) and have outhit opponents by 11. It was actually shocking to me that the Islanders were close to the bottom of the NHL.com standings (26th) given the minimal difference in hits between the Islanders and their opponents. This doesn't pass the "eye test" in which so many feel they were manhandled. After doing some digging and averaging, here are the home/away splits.
It is a small sample thus far, but it appears that NVMC may over count some hitting statistics, with minimal difference between home and away teams. However, it also appears that there is a five-hit difference between the Isles home and away hits and about a two hit difference for opponents.
Using Behind the Net's "Fenwick by Team" page, we can create a proxy for "puck possession" that gives us a little more information. The Islanders fenwick percentage (shots on net + missed shots [doesn't include blocked shots]) is pretty bad (45.72 with the score close)...and outright atrocious on the road. (38.19 with the score close). This would indicate that the opposition is controlling play, has possession more often, and therefore, the Islanders should have more opportunity to hit. Further, it may explain why there is little disparity in hits between the Isles and an opponent on a game by game basis. The other team can't hit them while they're on offense.
There can be a couple of factors for the discrepancy between possession and hitting: the stat counters are different/have different criteria, the coach is not able to get the line matchups he wants and therefore, hits are more limited, or some random unknowable thing like "bad on the road" kind of travel problem.
Missed Opportunities
The bottom line is, on a couple of occasions already this season, the Isles have had an opponent on the tail end of back to back games. They have had an extremely light schedule (amount of games), good health, plenty of practice time together, and an extremely favorable road/home split. They haven't even played one of their 14 sets of back-to-back games yet.
They have squandered a golden opportunity to take advantage of other teams in their division while they had injuries and less favorable schedules. (Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Pronger, and a host of others have missed time, Brodeur has struggled, the Rangers were in Europe and had a terrible start.) There really is no excuse for a lack of physicality and being tough to play against at this point.
In games where the Isles have outhit their opponents, they are 3-5-3. In games where they've been outhit, they are 2-4-0. So the record doesn't significantly bear out that hitting more would help the Islanders win, however, even in wins, they generally aren't outhitting teams by much, and often, they are being outshot when they are outhitting...and score effects come into play once the game gets away from them...they tend to drive posession a little more when down by more than one goal. But as noted by the MSG live crew, their identity is missing.
And it's not so much the "hitting," it is the work ethic...the skating hard and forcing the play. Going into a corner and coming away with a puck...taking a couple of cross checks to ensure a goalie can't see: Those things are also not getting done.
But we don't have anyone measuring those things.
So while my initial stance was hitting isn't really that important, I'm now going to change that to: hitting and physical play is important to some teams...the Islanders being one of them.
When you're not the Red Wings or the Lightining, you will need to bring other aspects of the game to keep your identity and your head in the game when you're not scoring. While I didn't initially believe that the Isles were being outhit badly, I recognize now that you need to look not at the hit totals, but the missed opportunities for hits...and also look at the bad or missed hits that affect possession, shots against, scoring chances and goals against. As a proxy for "hard work", "hitting" is not a great stat to use, and I'll admit that, but in line with everything that the eye test and possession metrics tell us, I'm ready to agree a piece like Micheal Haley or Justin DiBenedetto may help this squad.
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Does Haley have mad skills?
Or is he just a Webbish spark plug that hits anything in the opponents jersey? His rush again the Pens last season makes me feel he’d be a great addition to a lineup without grit. I felt one of the two, Reasoner or Pandalfo, was an unnecessary addition if we were to bring Haley up full time. I think he’s earned the right to scrap in the NHL, and we’d be foolish not to give him the chance. Just my two cents.
apparently his offensive game has taken a bit of a hit this year
I’m very pro Haley as well because I’ve argued he’s a spark plug for the team like Webb was but that isn’t something you can really quantify.
You wouldn't believe how good the Corsi is for my NHL 12 Be A Pro player.
I think they aren't using him the best way in BP
I dont think he’s ever been more than a spark plug with occassional offensive flashes. From what I’ve been told, they’re playing him more like a second line player than a fourth line 1. I could be wrong but thats the idea I’ve gotten from guys who pay more attention to BP games than I do since I only watch highlights of some of their games. If hes moved into a 4th line energy role that would suit him much better than trying to have to play with offensive tools he doesnt have. For the Isles, that would be his role and I think it would beneit both him and the team thats really soft right now.
by MineolaIsles on Nov 21, 2011 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
The whole stat 'hits' ...
seems silly to me. It’s so subjective, and in lots of cases unimportant to the game I just don’t think it tells you much.
Toughness is ten times more important than ‘hits.’
Fighting through checks, planting youself in front (ala Martin), giving up your body to block a shot. That’s the stuff that matters, not some number that some part time ‘hit-counter’ comes up with between swigs of beer or whatever he’s doing up there.
by dose on Nov 21, 2011 2:30 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
It's horribly tracked too
With each arena seemingly favoring its home team a bit, or at least its own Clusterbuck.
But it’s fun to look at when scraping for context. The Rangers lost while outhitting the Isles at the Coliseum 28-11 — now that’s some fodder.
The whole concept of toughness and physicality is so hard to define much less quantify, I think that’s why it creates such debate and confusion. Few would agree that it’s not necessary (unless you have a Red Wings laboratory team), yet there’s such debate on how to address it.
I think a great example is Matt Martin last year vs. Matt Martin this year: Last year he tried to hit everything in site. When he’s already playing with poor linemates that can be really counterproductive. This year he’s still hitting a lot but has (or had) more insurance in Reasoner to cover for him, and he’s using his body more in driving the net situations.
Then the whole enforcer/revenge/protection/scare ’em aspect is a whole ’nother can of worms.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
Agree on toughness, can't track but you know it when you see it
See..Boston Bruins.
Hockey sense
That’s the identity they are lacking “hockey sense”: taking a few cross checks to screen the goalie, win a battle on the boards in order to get a quality scoring chance, sacrificing the body to block a shot on a PK, crashing the net to get a rebound! Hockey 101!
We are all Islanders, even if we’re from Jersey!
Identities
I chuckled when I saw the opening of this post, because I’d been thinking of a "WTF is “Identity?” type of post. I just hear that so much yet don’t know what it means, other than “I can conveniently sum this team up in two words.” Gordon’s Isles had an “identity,” but it’s not one many would want to see again.
But I do agree when your team is underskilled, or just average, that you need to be hard to play against. That’s an identity that keeps you in games, and it’s one this roster has not grasped.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
I totally agree
It kills me when people analyze till no end. Hockey is a simple game. It comes down to effort, drive, desire. Just play the damn game and play it hard. The rest will work itself out eventually. It’s like this team’s afraid to succeed.
by Empire39 on Nov 21, 2011 4:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The reason I became an Islander fan was because they were the underdog that worked hard.
Would I have the same view of the team today if I were a new fan of hockey? They have my undying loyalty for the dysnasty years, but outside of a few players this team is currently hard to watch because of the apparent lack of effort. I refuse to believe that this group of player’s doesn’t care, but I am at a loss to explain how flat they are.
We don't block enough shots IMO, but I haven't actually looked into the numbers? Am I right?
Seems the Devils block lost of shots, but we don’t?
Cappy on Saturday Nite
That was the first time that I can recall in the Garth Snow ‘Era’ that a coach has been that emotional about the team and the player effort.
I believe that Cappy is gonna be a good coach for this team for a long time.
My favorite part of his speech was afyter he was asked if this was the most angry he’s been of the team after the loss in his time as coach.
His Response:
This is Our fans…This our Building with a good crowd…we wanna play hard every night, but you know what, you’re at home, This is your Building, you wanna make the National Hockey League Playoffs…you gotta win Home Games…You Gotta Win the Majority of your Home Games!!!…..The emotion was down tonight and you gotta battle thru it!
CAPPY WAS PISSED!!! If you haven’t seen it…go ahead and watch. Tonite is gonna be very interesting.
The game is now on national TV with the entire hockey world watching b/c ‘Sid the Kid’ returns to the ice. Cappy is stiing DP (which is another signal sender IMO – He is clearly not happy with him at all).
Everyone is gonna asked to sacrafice their bodies tonite.
They Laugh at us….They laugh at everyone we do/have: The Arena! The Owner! The Uniforms! We are Joke to them (media, Canada, The Rangers)
Cappy Called Them Weak – Good for Him. Lets see how they respond this week.
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Twitter: @mikeryaninc
"Past performance Is Not A Guarantee For Future Results"
"Listening is a Skill" -Jack Capuano
by FB4Real on Nov 21, 2011 2:36 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I'm as optimistic as anyone
And maybe since I haven’t thru as much (emotionally) as other Iles fans have been over the last 10 years I have been ‘optimistic’.
BUT THIS TEAM IS NOT THE LEAST TALENTED IN THE NHL. NOT EVEN CLOSE.
Cappy did what he needed to do and I believe it was the right thing to do.
Lets see a response.
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Twitter: @mikeryaninc
"Past performance Is Not A Guarantee For Future Results"
"Listening is a Skill" -Jack Capuano
I'm expecting a good game from the Isles
You’re never as bad as you look when things are going “to hell in a hand basket” and vise versa. The Isles do not match up well with Boston. I expect the Pens to take them lightly and the Isles surprise tonight. But a big question mark will be the goalie situation. Having a rookie in net is always a big wild card.
DP sitting is Signal Sender to me
The first real signal that the times are a changin’.,
Cappy was Pissed at DP…Big Time for his effort the other nite.
Players and fans better come to grips with the fact with certain things about this team. Cappy is the Coach and he aint getting fired or replaced anytime soon. This is on the Players…Its not on Garth or Cappy or Wang.
I’m glad that they are not calling up Haley or Gillies….these guys need to learn how to stand up and fight for themselves. Get Tough….Now. U Wanna be a winning group…A Winning Group (The Bruins) just showed you how to Kick ass and take Names the other nite on your home Ice.
<img src=“”http://gifsoup.com/view/304560/trevor-gillies.html" target="_blank">
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Twitter: @mikeryaninc
"Past performance Is Not A Guarantee For Future Results"
"Listening is a Skill" -Jack Capuano
Im expecting a good game from our Isles tonight!
Then the next game will be a mail-in-effort!
We are all Islanders, even if we’re from Jersey!
by Russel Ginart on Nov 21, 2011 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
I agree, there are not a soft team.
They lead the league in pillow fights.
You Tube, please.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Nov 21, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Intimidated
Hi guys and girls long time reader first time poster. Just felt the need to say one thing:
i really dont feel that it was a coincedence that the best run we’ve had in the last few years came when gillies, haley, konopka and martin were in the lineup. i know that konopka was a 10 minute mis-conduct machine and Gillies was only used for 2-3 minutes a game, but the confidence that all these kids showed with them being “protected” by these guys was something that totally disappeared as soon as they disappeared from the lineup. And i really feel for Martin (like him alot and progressing nicely) but can he, and should he, a 22 yr old kid be the only one defending his teammates. The entire team with the exception of a handful of guys just seem so intimaded and soft…sorry for venting on my first post
Welcome to the party
You’re clearly not alone in that sentiment.
(And if you think your first post was a vent, then you ain’t seen nothing around here and I applaud your restraint!)
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
by Dominik on Nov 21, 2011 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
1 problem (well, 2)
sometimes a guy finishes a forecheck with a weak@ss hit, and it counts just as much as the guy who coughed up a lung after the monster smash behind the net he just took to clear the puck… so qualifying them and quantifying them makes this study a little blurry…
also
your borders are aren’t uniformly thick… (sorry, i notice the unimportant things)
These comments crawl up from the depths of the deepest Chasm of Saar
How I'm starting to feel about the team
You wouldn't believe how good the Corsi is for my NHL 12 Be A Pro player.
Awwww, the real Fever Pitch
I shoulda known, coming from you.
That’s it, “rubbish” goes into the next loss recap.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
this is also how I felt at the start of Arsenal's season, thankfully we've turned it around
You wouldn't believe how good the Corsi is for my NHL 12 Be A Pro player.
I am trying not to talk about it lest it be some dream
But yes. Very much yes.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
Had jury duty about a month ago
And used the word “rubbish” while being questioned. I realized at that moment that I needed to take a break from watching Top Gear.
Timing is Everything
So glad you elaborated on this Keith, as this is the single most frustrating thing for me as an Islanders fan right now. Whatever it was that erupted on that fabulous February night last season has seemingly vanished. That has got to be a record for quickest disissal of success and enthusiasm ever. How could Garth, Jack, Doug, and all the other advisors not see what is so blaringly obvious about the success of last years team in the final 2 1/2 months. Michael Haley had a prescence that was unique. Behind that I saw Gillies, Martin, Konopka, as well as almost everyone else play tougher and that led to the winning. Toughness, Respect, Intimidation. So obvious, right? Why the sudden change in strategy? No Haley, No Gillies, No replacement for Zenon? Now, team does not command respect, lacks intimidation, and can’t find the momentum that one of those guy’s could spark in a physical play or standing up for a teammate in a fight. Haley taking on Talbot, taking on Carcillo, taking on Avery. Gillies taking on the heavyweights, Konopka taking on everyone else. What do we have in place? Rolston, Pandolfo, and Reasoner. Is there even an argument? Get with it Islanders and re-create that night that Isles fan will never forget. Oh and we’re playing the Penguins tonight? I hardly noticed.
by nyisles1974 on Nov 21, 2011 3:26 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
not an argument so much as a caution
Physical play is really kind of like a multiplier. If you’re not working with much to begin with, then adding a bunch of hitting and fighting isn’t going to make things all that much better. Feb 11 was cathartic, but the Isles didn’t win that game because they fought. They won that game because they scored nine goals, and Pittsburgh only scored three. Until they change the rules of hockey, the only thing that wins hockey games is having more goals than the opposing team.
Physical play can help with that. It’s often the first thing struggling teams think of, because it’s easier to teach someone to knock over a guy than it is to teach sick dangles or sniping the top shelf on one-timers. I don’t think it’s the only road to the goal – all these things are means to an end, that end being to put more pucks in the net than the bad guys.
In a way, it’s kind of like goaltending. Great goaltending isn’t a guarantee of success in the same way bad goaltending is a guarantee of failure. Hitting a lot and dropping the mitts to protect each other is similar – having that won’t win the games for you, but not having it will lose games.
We may be in the box, but you get the penalty.
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Non-hockey scribblings at nightflyblog
by mikb on Nov 21, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'll add my bit, as someone who didn't see much space for Konopka or Gillies, and borderline Haley
Here’s how I saw it: A team with Gillies, Konopka and Haley and 2010-11 Martin in the lineup isn’t going to win many games over the long haul. That’s a team with a whole lot of guys who aren’t really good at NHL-level hockey — a team with forwards who have to constantly be sheltered or their minutes minimized, taxing the load on everyone else.
Last year’s second-half run — which despite appearances, did not turn on simply “tough” play, as three of those guys were in the lineup all season long — turned on improved goaltending, improved play from Tavares, and dynamite EV and PK play from Nielsen and Grabner, plus another March Blake Comeau binge. Those facets cannot be overlooked.
So when I looked at this roster over the summer, I thought, “They need that fire they showed in February-March, but they need better players, too.” That means cutting Konopka for Reasoner. Recognizing that Gillies is a specialist at best. Considering that Haley might not make the roster. Hoping that Martin can play a bigger role and affect his teammates in a positive way.
I saw last year’s spine-enforcement as a transitional thing, a mentorship of sorts to get players like Okposo and Comeau to stand up once in a while — same as when the Isles threw up their arms and called up Gillies for the first time two years ago against the Flyers. It didn’t work, GIllies was a non-factor except for a bad penalty, and the Flyers didn’t take the bait. They still trounced the Isles. But Gillies’ presence arguably helped here and there as a lost season wound down.
Basically, this team needs BETTER players who can also handle their own. (Boston, while “tough,” is marked by physical players who CAN PLAY NHL HOCKEY up and down the lineup.) If the existing players can’t handle themselves — if Martin and Hamonic laying themselves out for their teammates isn’t enough to get those teammates to carry their part of the schoolyard bargain — then some of them need to be weeded out, and this is exactly how we learn that they need to be weeded out. Because you’re not going to win many games over the long haul when you have what amounts to a 1980s-style trio or four-pack of enforcers taking up forward slots.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
by Dominik on Nov 21, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
I don’t even see guys battling for pucks most nights (JT, PAP, M Martin, Frans excepted). I want to see opposing fwds tied up and separated from the puck in our zone, and see us win a few battles in the offensive zone. Win 50%, and it’s a marked improvement, even try it, instead of standing a foot away from the guy waiting for him to pass it.
Agreed
To me that’s a much bigger issue than the presence of Haley et al. Perhaps the presence of one more guy like that would help provide the spark/edge/guilty conscience that moves players to actually battle for 50/50s, I don’t know. But if so, that’s a poor excuse for players who should know how to play hockey, and makes an easy one for fans to draw coincidences.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
by Dominik on Nov 21, 2011 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I see those battles going on the offensive zone
Or more specifically, I see that from JT’s line, and Frans’ line. I see it from Matt Martin. That’s not really enough, but it’s more than I see from the Isles in their own end. What always jumps at me is that once opponents get established in the Isles end, it almost seems like they have a 5-on-5 power play. Hamonic is about the only defender who takes the body – well, except for Staios, but he winds up in the box for it. Our forwards are not nearly as good at harassing the puck and forcing turnovers on defense.
We may be in the box, but you get the penalty.
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Non-hockey scribblings at nightflyblog
by mikb on Nov 21, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Skill
What a concept.
"He's depriving some small village of a pretty good idiot" - Mike Milbury on Ziggy Palffy's agent. On Twitter: @Dan_of_Science
Damn, if only it were a concept
Then maybe it could be taught!*
*Probably wouldn’t want Capuano doing the teaching.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
So true mikb
The cycling unopposed in our defensive zone kills me. guys play a foot or two off and harrass a bit with the stick to force a change of direction…but body and pin, no way
Do you think they're too wed to collapsing?
Because yeah, it’s amazing when they get hemmed in while the offense owns the perimeter and stretches the D to open lanes. I feel like sometimes they’re too afraid to drift, like they don’t trust their decision-making on when to pin a guy off.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
Dom I agree
They absolutely seem tentative when to pin a guy off…lack of confidence? I don’t know, but it seems to me there has to be more to it than lack of physical play because as Mikb said, I see it much more in the d zone than the o zone.
Yes!
Lack of confidence in making a good play, lack of confidence in the goaltender to make the save. Collapsing defense blocks a lot of shots and keeps you in position more frequently. However they are getting burned by the flipside: large periods where they are stuck in their own zone, getting tired, not on the attack. Thus less goals and then tired/lazy plays that seem to end up in the back of our net 80% of the time.
by GreekIsles83 on Nov 21, 2011 5:19 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Honestly, it beats me
It’s something I notice, but the goals against that I’ve seen don’t generally come off that pressure – at least not directly. What happens is they get hemmed in for 60 seconds, finally get possession, and then turnover-boom-goal. A lot of the goals are coming mostly off of those obvious bonehead plays.
My guess is that they’re going to have to start doing something different. Even if a passive system “works” and the other team doesn’t get a clean shot for the whole shift, that’s a whole shift they’re giving away. Maybe a more assertive defensive posture would create more turnovers for them, more chances to rush and counterattack, and easier breakouts.
We may be in the box, but you get the penalty.
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Non-hockey scribblings at nightflyblog
I feel like I'm seeing an opponent adaptation now
where that collapse to the middle was working, now, opposing teams are kicking the puck out to the point man for weak long range shots. The problem is, there is a lot of traffic/screen/rebound/deflection going on. And ’tis ugly.
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
Noticed that about the goals, too
And so do we excuse it because the goals are off correctable mistakes, or think one feeds the other/they’re testing the odds by giving up possession for such long periods? Oh hockey, you’re so malleable.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
Thanks, Dom
This was what I was looking at when I asked about Haley (although you say it with more better words than me). If he could hold his own offensively, chipping in goals and NOT making bonehead plays, he should already be here. But if all he is is the guy running around looking to bounce opponents off the boards I say leave that to Martin and, yikes, Comeau.
To be fair, I don't know what all Haley can bring at this level
Speed is certainly an attribute of his. I don’t mean to paint him as a one-trick pony when it’s possible he’s not — he is kind of old to be “discovered,” but it happens — and his two highlight reel goals last year were an example of something nice.
Maybe if Martin can play up a line (unknown, but definitely possible), then Haley can play his role and be helped by Reasoner and Pandolfo (/ducks tomatoes).
My main theory on this is the Islanders can both be “soft” and not be served simply by re-inserting Konopka and Haley. That’s like robbing Peter to pay Paul, when the goal should be to get players who can treat both Peter and Paul to a nice meal.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
Yesterday
he sniped the water bottle off the roof…but he was pretty open. I think the point I’m at is, is his hitting and fiestiness greater than Rolston’s slapshot or Comeau’s COZO’s and comparing attributes in an apples to oranges format.
And realistically, are you robbing Peter to pay Paul if Peter just keeps aimlessly circling things and shooting things with no money in his pockets? Eff Peter if that’s how he’s gonna be.
Haha, that was fun.
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
I might be at that point soon
I want some changes. Ullstrom and Nino’s presence are part.
But I certainly won’t be whining if Haley comes up at some point. He was the guy this summer that my mind said there might not be room for, but my heart sure wasn’t going to pout if he somehow made it back on to the squad.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
Exactly my thoughts
I don’t much miss Konopka (as some others do), because I didn’t think he was a good hitter, fast enough to be an effective forechecker and I also thought he was a terrible fighter. (That’s why his face has two inches of callouses on it). I didn’t mind losing him at all because Reasoner is an upgrade.
The thing I didn’t count on was losing 3 of those four guys and the regression in play from KO, JB, BC, and the physical contributions that I think we may be overlooking from Colliton (also some damn good FO%), Joensuu, Sim, and a couple of others.
I’m still of the mind that if the team made quantum leaps in general play (using speed to get to loose pucks, pressuring puck carriers, controlling possession), that the “physical only” guys like Haley wouldn’t be as necessary, but they didn’t, so now there is a lack on two fronts.
NY Islanders, just one irrational free agent signing away from contention!
Website:Lighthouse HockeyTwitter: @KeithLHHockey
Konopka
The thing about Konopka is that, when you have a middleweight-type guy who fights every game, the other team knows that somebody is going to have to get punched in the face a few times. And since Konopka is a middleweight, there are a lot of candidates. That can affect how willing the other team is to finish their checks. It’s the notion that there’s a guy on the other team who is willing to do something a little crazy.
Missing from your argument.....
Is the concept of a intimidating player that draws the repect and yes fear from the opposition. I’m not talking about goons but the Pronger or Pheneuf type defenseman who we never acquired or a similar type on offense. A Brooks Laich forward and another real goalie and you might not be writing this excellent Blog. As a reminder everyone thought our D was small and slow and our Goalies recovering for injuries[Poulin, DP and Montoya] so now the chickens have come home to roost.
Slow Starts - Maybe it is time to stop celebrating the 40th anniversary
They have lost all 3 games at home where they have had a pre-game celebration and they have started slowly in all three. Total score 11-2, with 1 point gained out of possible 6 in the standings (10/8 2-0L, 10/29 3-2 OTL, 11/19 6-0L) . They just don’t start well after the long ceremonies and there are quite a few more scheduled for the rest of the season. It is going to be ugly at home.
No team in the league is afraid when they get the lead against a sluggish team. These ceremonies should psyche the players up and instead it drains them. So I think a lot of the lack of fight or spirit or toughness, whatever you want to call it is because it takes them to long to wake up and start playing.
Tell me about it
I bought the dynasty pack. :-/
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Nov 21, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
Okay, maybe it isn't the pre-game ceremony, maybe it is you ;).
I thought it was maybe just me that felt these opening ceremoniesare now sucking what little life there is out of this team. Are the players bored, resentful or indifferent to a frnachise whose heirtage has been tarnished over the past 15 seasons?
If those were the only games in which they were horrible, there could be something to it. but I bought tickets to a non-dynasty pack game and proceeded to watch them get shut out then, too. :(
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Nov 21, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
So you are proving my new theory, it isn't the ceremonies, its you.
Sorry to be so harsh, but you seem to be the common denominator. Time to donate tickets to a charity you have little sympathy for to see if they turn up flat for those games too. I mean if it is the tickets, why punish a charity you like, if it is you that causes the losses at least the tickets are a write off.
DE-OCCUPY NVMC
A campaign for TMC to watch games elsewhere.™
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
OK, who's buying my tickets?
(crickets)
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Nov 21, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
Ive thought it before.
I became a fan of the Isles in the summer of 94… only months after a season everyone still talks about. I have never seen this team even win a playoff round.
:(
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Nov 21, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
PS
Doesn’t it look like Comeau’s just hanging out along the boards shooting the breeze with that guy?
“Yeah, heard you’re getting Crosby back. Cool. … Oh, yeah – the leg thing. It just sticks out like this. Docs can’t figure it out. I’m probably gonna get scratched next game, until they can figure it out.”
We may be in the box, but you get the penalty.
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by mikb on Nov 21, 2011 3:45 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
LOL. I was thinking it looked like, "OK, ok, ok. Let's do the Kriss/Kross thing....
One…Two…Three….Daddy Mack’ll make you….WASSSUPPPPP? NICE!"
How does this compare to the 2nd half of last year?
Do the statistics show that the Islanders with Trevor Gillies, Zenon Konopka, Micheal Haley, Matt Martin and Travis Hamonic in the same lineup hit a lot more?
I would think so, but as is pointed out in other comments, this hitting statistic does not seem very reliable.
I any case, it is clear to me that a lot of these players are not paying the price to be successful.
This is indeed the point
“When you’re not the Red Wings or the Lightning, you will need to bring other aspects of the game to keep your identity and your head in the game when you’re not scoring.”
Yes, exactly. When you are a lower echelon team like the Islanders, physical play is the potential equalizer to those teams who currently have more goal scorers, better play makers, better goal tending, better passers, etc. Based on last year’s record, most teams in the league are better at those things then the Islanders…and now, unfortunately, it seems its the case this year as well.
So you need to somehow send a message at the beginning of each game to your opponent that we are not the cakewalk you think we will be. And contrary to the opinion of some here, that was exactly the message sent in the Pittsburgh game last year.
I don’t think stats can ever tell the whole story on this point, because I think physical players send a message to not only the other team, but to the rest of your own team as well, and that message is this- its going to be a physical game tonight, so you best keep your head up, and be alert.
Total agreement
There is a difference between being a goon and playing tough. Here are 2 Islander examples Clarke Gillies was a tough hockey player. Gary Howett was more of a goon. The Islanders of the 70s and 80s were tough team but for the most part were not goons with the exception of Gary Howett and Duane Sutter. Gillies, Nystrom, Tonelli, Potvin, and Morrow, were all tough players but were not goons. They were not afraid to go into the corner, stay in front of the net, or clear our own net area. If needed none of those players were afraid to mix it up when necessary.
Before the season started I stated that the Islanders lost too much TOUGHNESS with the loss of Konopka and Haley. Trevor Gillies is a goon but Haley and Konopka brought skill to the team also.
Its funny that the Penguins bring back Crosby against the Islanders after last season. But if you look at it who does he need to worry about besides Martin. For him it will be like playing as a red shirt in practice for the amount of times he will be hit tonight.
This team is soft slow and old.
Define Goon
goons with the exception of Gary Howett and Duane Sutter
To think that these two guysmay be considered goons and still be better than halfof the Islander forwards. More than goons, they were shift-disturbers who could get under anyone’s skin and not back down. The dynastic Islanders did not have any goons that could not take a regular shift. Dog scored 17 to 20 goals consistently for five seasons. Not a single goon in the league can put up those numbers.
Even Howatt while setting the Islanders record for PIMS at the time has produced more goals in a single season than KO.
Drop gloves first ask questions later.
Neither one of them were on Trevor Gillies or Ken Baumgartner levels but were more goonish than skill.
hitting and physical play
is a mindset. noone is saying that you have to fight to be physical. there are guys on the bruins who couldnt fight their way out of a zip lock bag but they still hit.
people say, what how much will haley score blah blah. wake up, it doesnt matter if he doesnt score a damn point. dont you get it?
the islanders are filled with guys that just dont have the mindset to play that way. you cant be told to be that, you either are or your not. the islanders have guys that dont hit because they are afraid to get hit back. they know if they hit, its gonna come back to them. but that thereory doesnt work because the soft guys get the shit kicked out them anyway.
blake comeau is physical once in a while because he’s told he has to be or he’ll sit. if he had his choice he wouldnt check a gnat. with matt martin, its inbread, its who he is. nobody has to tell him to hit anybody. thats the only way he knows. big difference. ill take a little less skill on lines 2,3 and 4 as long as he’s a guy like martin anyday.
Since we're in "don't you get it?" mode
people say, what how much will haley score blah blah. wake up, it doesnt matter if he doesnt score a damn point. dont you get it?
Are the people saying that parallel to other figures who do think fighting=physicality? ‘Cause I’ve seen a wide mix.
What I’ve seen most though is:
1) The team doesn’t score. Haley doesn’t address that. So when the team is shut out repeatedly, people think there are bigger reasons.
2) It’s not whether Haley can put up points — no one expects much there — it’s whether the team can afford to carry a guy who has otherwise been a liability at 5-on-5 just for the sake of the energy/fire/intimidation factor.
Believe it or not it’s a complex issue, and many people have views on it that only vary by degrees, and are probing for answers rather than just waiting for someone to wake them up and show them the divine light.
I don’t know if it’s even that the Islanders’ contact-averse players fear getting hit back; I think it might not even be in their nature. Look how long it takes for Comeau or Okposo or Bailey to be pissed off. Hell, even Trent Hunter hit a whole lot but rarely looked like he was hitting angry.
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A Dane with no holes is Frans Nielsen.
by Dominik on Nov 21, 2011 6:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think this is right on.
Fighting and physical are 2 different things, so are hitting and toughness.
The guys that have all those and can actually skate and play even a little are very few.
And physical play is a mindset, that’s why guys with size and stregth who won’t use it are so frustrating.
I too think you are right
At times its painful to watch the lack of physical play. The stats up above do not surprise me. I don’t think any of the teams the Islanders have played this year have been overly physical. But they (Bruins, Pens, Bolts, etc.) don’t HAVE to be- particularly when they are playing the Isles. They are more than happy to say “lets not go out of our way to hit each other…lets have talent decide the outcome of the game.” And the Islanders fall short in that department.
This emphasis on what Haley brings to the goals and assists stats is completely beside the point. Right now the Islanders have too many people who already fall into that category, and they also don’t bring a physical game either. At least Haley would accomplish that.
The problem is Matt Martin accounts for 25% +/- of the team's Hits by himself
take that away and they are being out hit almost nightly.
To add, since Kenopka is being brought up, what the Isles are missing mor e is his faceoff ability, especially short-handed. He is winning 65% of SHFO. Reasoner, “the upgrade”, is only winning 41%. Nielsen 42% and Bailey 35%. Makes sense if you can control the face-off in your end, you have a better chance of clearing the zone on the PK, which obviously the team isn’t doing. Also leads to less sh goal opportunities.
What the fuck happened to the Isles I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts, huh?
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1979-80
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May 24, 1980: Tonelli to Nystrom. At long last, the steady build of the New York Islanders from expansion doormat to surprise semifinalist to annual contender reaches the promised land: Buoyed by a late season trade for Butch Goring that gave the team the depth up the middle GM Bill Torrey had been seeking, the Islanders knock off the Philadelphia Flyers in six games.
The victory justified the faith in coach Al Arbour who guided them from their second season to their first Stanley Cup seven seasons later. The Islanders would not be the first expansion team to win the Stanley Cup, but they would be the only one capable of a dynasty.
1980-81
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May 21, 1981: This time it was much easier. After falling to "only" 91 points in the 1979-80 season, the Islanders returned to their division title tradition, piling up 110 points -- a whole 13 points over second-place Philadelphia.
Between the quarterfinals (where they beat the upstart Oilers in six games) and the finals, the Islanders reeled off eight consecutive wins -- with a four-game sweep of archrival Rangers in between. As they defeated the Minnesota North Stars in five games for their second Cup, their goal difference in the final was a combined +10.
1981-82
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May 16, 1982: Another year, another landslide title. The Islanders won the Patrick Division by a whopping 26 points over the second-place Rangers, and were seven points clear of their nearest competition for the President's Trophy, the still-not-quite-ripe Edmonton Oilers.
A first-round scare against the Pittsburgh Penguins turned in the Isles' favor thanks to John Tonelli's heroics, and a true dynasty was on its way: Past the Rangers in six games, then an eight-game sweep of the Quebec Nordiques and Vancouver Canucks to run away with the Stanley Cup.
1982-83
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May 17, 1983: Not so fast, whipper-snappers. The Edmonton Oilers' steadily rising challenge for league supremacy took them all the way to the finals for the first time, where the New York Islanders summarily dispatched them in a four-game sweep. For the Islanders, the Dynasty was secured. For the Oilers, it was a powerful lesson in where talent ends and the demands of playoff hockey begin.
Four years, four Cups, 16 consecutive playoff series wins (a record that would grow to 19 until the rematch with the Oilers the following year). Mike Bossy scored 60 goals yet again, and Wayne Gretzky became acquainted with Billy Smith's crease.
