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Matt Martin is a Terrible Player Right Now...no, really: A statistical look at the 21-year-old rookie



There are players who are known for delivering crushing hits, causing opposing players to always look over their shoulders in fear, weakening their resolve.  And when these players do deliver hits, they're well timed, so that they knock the puck loose and result in less opposing scoring chances, resulting in better team performance.  The best of these players can also add in the scoring department as well. 

Matt Martin is not one of these players.  A statistic of hockey prospectus that attempts to measure the total value of a player called GVT (Goals Versus Threshold) - the hockey equivalent to WAR (Wins Above Replacement) - tabs Martin as a below replacement player; that is, it says that he's worse than just a random player available for every team to sign from the AHL to come and play on the big team.  That's pretty bad, actually.  And aside from Rick DiPietro, it's the worst on the team (aside from Jon Sim, who no longer is on the team).

Now, GVT has a big flaw...it doesn't take into account context and misses a whole bunch of other statistics...it also ignores the role of good or bad luck.  Thus I don't take it too seriously (it also heavily values goalies, even though goalie performance varies a ton due to small sample sizes).  But well, a look at other hockey statistics does not paint a pretty picture about Mr. Martin.

Star-divide

Below are Matt Martin's statistics in Table 1 this year at Even Strength (5 on 5 only).  Martin does not play any relevant amount of time on the power play or penalty kill, so I'm going to ignore those situations.  The statistics are from Behind The Net Hockey, and some can be found HERE.

Player NameRelative Corsi
CorsiNormalized Corsi
Relative +/- % of Starts in Offensive Zone
Corsi Rel Qual Comp. Corsi Rel Qual Team
Penalties Drawn per 60
Penalties Taken per 60
Goalie Save %
Matt Martin -21.1 -26.47 -23.09 -1.00 44.2% 0.448 -4.667 0.6 1.6 .911
Zenon Konopka -21.1 -27.62 -5.98 -0.05 26.7% 0.664 -5.471 1.1 1.5 .917

Table 1:Matt Martin and Zenon Konopka's Even Strength Statistics: 
Table Legend:
Relative Corsi = A Player's Corsi while they're on the ice MINUS the team's corsi when the player is off the ice. 
Corsi = Total Shots directed toward opponent's net MINUS Total Shots directed toward Your OWN Net (Per 60)
Normalized Corsi = A Player's Corsi rating normalized to show how the corsi rating would be if a player started an equal amount of time in the offensive zone as the player does in the defensive zone.
Relative +/- = A players +/- while on the ice MINUS their +/- while off the ice (with some minutes adjustment)
% of Starts in Offensive Zone = The percentage of faceoffs you're on the ice that are in the offensive zone (not including neutral zone faceoffs)
%Corsi Rel Qual Comp = A measure of the skill of the average opposing player on the ice.  (Basically it's the average Corsi Relative of the opposing players on the ice while this player was on the ice.)
%Corsi Rel Qual Team= A measure of the skill of the average teammate on the ice.  (Basically it's the average Corsi Relative of the linemates and D-Men who are on the ice at the same time of this player)
---------

Like I said above, GVT fails in a major way: it doesn't measure context.  Thus l've selected for comparison Matt Martin's most frequent linemate: Zenon Konopka.  After all, the poor performance of the fourth line could be as much Konopka's as Martin's.  There's also the fact  that Martin for 2 minutes a game is on a line with Trevor Gillies, who truly stinks at the non-fighting parts of hockey.  But, well at 2 minutes a game, that shouldn't impact Martin's statistics too much, so I've left Gillies' putrid #s off of the table above. 

In addition, I've chosen several statistics that measure the context of when Martin is on the ice.

  • Corsi Rel Qual Comp measures the quality of each player's competition by looking at how good his opponent's are (through Relative Corsi).  Matt Martin is in the middle of the pack among Islander forwards in this measure, showing that he hasn't played especially tough or especially easy opposition.
  • Corsi Rel Qual Team measures the quality of teammates by looking at Relative Corsi.  This measure states that Martin has the 2nd worst teammates of any other player....but it's misleading a little bit, in that it's counting Martin's own contributions as he's very frequently on the same line as Zenon Konopka.  And this measure is misleading in another way because it undervalues Konopka, as I said earlier. 
  • % of Starts in Offensive Zone (also known as Zone-Start) measures the ratio of faceoffs on which a player is on the ice in the offensive zone as compared to how frequently he's taking defensive zone faceoffs.  So Konopka, who is a faceoff specialist, is super-frequently used in defensive zone faceoffs, and has the lowest zone-start % in the league.  Matt Martin's zone-start % is actually about average for the Islanders. 

    As you might expect, a player who starts more faceoffs in the defensive zone will have worse statistics, particularly in corsi, as that it's hard to have a positive shot differential if you're on the ice all the time for defensive zone faceoffs.  
  • Relative Statistics:  To measure a player who plays on a team, the easiest thing to do is to measure a team's performance with that player on the ice and compare it to their performance off the ice.  Thus Relative +/- shows the difference in +/- per 60 minutes when a player is on the ice as compared to off the ice.  Relative Corsi does the same thing with Corsi (instead of +/-).  Thus, when Matt Martin is on the ice, the team's +/- (goal differential) is 1 whole goal WORSE than with him OFF the ice. 
  • Normalized Corsi is a measure that well, let me explain:

So, the Zone-Start % is a major factor in influencing corsi (shot differential) for obvious reasons outlined above.  What's been found is that each additional offensive zone start results in an increase in a player's total corsi of +0.8...in other words, for each additional offensive zone faceoff taken by a team, the team puts .8 more shots on an opponent's net than the opponent puts on their own net.  This can be a big effect for extreme players, like Zenon Konopka (who as previously mentioned sees more defensive faceoffs than anyone else in the entire NHL).

So what I've done is I've used this figure (+.8 per additional offensive zone faceoff) and calculated what Konopka and Martin's Corsi would be if they were on the ice for an equal amount of offensive faceoffs as defensive faceoff (a zone-start of 50%).  This eliminates the effect of zone-start on corsi and makes a big difference here. This is listed in the table as Normalized Corsi

See, Matt Martin and Zenon Konopka are tied for the worst relative corsi numbers on the ENTIRE ISLANDERS.  And it's a bad relative corsi, when either player is on the ice, the Islanders are outshot by 21.1 MORE SHOTS Per 60 minutes than they are when the two players are OFF the ice.  That's pretty bad (and the Isles are outshot when both players are off the ice as well).  This of course shows up in their normal Corsi #s, in Table 1, which are the two worst on the team:  when each player is on the ice, the Isles are outshot by over 26 shots per 60 minutes.

However, as I've said above, corsi and relative corsi are heavily affected by zone-start %s, so I've calculated the Normalized Corsi of both Matt Martin and Zenon Konopka.  For Zenon, there's a huge change...his corsi per 60 improves by over 21 points.  In other words, the teams'  poor shot-differential while Zenon is on the ice is almost entirely (21/27~=75%) the result of how Zenon is used: as a faceoff specialist meant to limit the damage of defensive faceoffs.  That's not his fault, and it's not the fault of his own play...it's just the fault of how the guy is used by Gordon/Capuano. 

But for Matt Martin, as you should have expected right now, there is little change (the change in shot-differential is just over 3 shots per 60), showing that only 1/9 of Martin's terrible Corsi ratings are attributable to how the kid is used. 

So What Does This (and the other numbers up there) Tell Us?

What this tells us is that taking context into effect, the team's horrible performance while Martin is on the ice is NOT the result of poor play of his most frequent teammate (Zenon Konopka), but is almost certainly due to the poor play of Martin himself. 

And poor play it is - the Islanders are massively outshot, as discussed above, with Martin in the game, and it would seem to mainly be his own fault.  He can't even use the quality of his opponents' as an excuse for this shot differential - as mentioned above, Martin's faced only average opposition. 

In addition to causing the Isles to be massively outshot, Martin commits 1.6 minor penalties per 60, but only draws 0.6 penalties per 60, a difference of 1 whole power play per 60 minutes.  Remember, a power play results in a goal roughly 20% of the time, so every 60 minutes, Martin is causing the Islanders to be down an additional 0.2 goals.  If we pro-rate his play over 80 games, we find that Martin would roughly cost the Islanders 2.5 goals over an entire season, simply due to taking so many penalties.  That's obviously not good - hockey statisticians basically estimate that 6 goals = a win (in baseball 10 runs = a win for stats like WAR), so from penalties alone, Martin costs the Islanders almost a half a win. 

And of course, if you want to use +/- (which I don't love either) and dont like corsi, Relative +/- states that for every 60 minutes Martin is on the ice, the Isles are outscored by 1 more goal than they'd be if he was off the Ice.  Thus his ice time result in the Isles being outscored by 13 goals per 80 games MORE than they'd be if he was off the ice.  Pretty Miserable. 

Conclusion:

Matt Martin is 21 years old.  He is a young kid, who could mature into a player who has some use to a hockey team outside of fighting.  But right now, Matt Martin is a terrible terrible player, whose play would seem to result in the Isles being massively outshot and outscored, and who doesn't help the team by taking so many penalties. 

And there is a place for young players, who have potential to grow into good NHL players, but are currently horrible in the NHL:  It's called Bridgeport.  That's where Matt Martin should be, and that's where he should stay until Martin can prove that he can handle the NHL.  And the team shouldn't consider Martin as a key cog of the future until he can show that he has greatly improved.

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yeah i your right for the most part old martin is not up to the nhl level. is big, but that all, stick handling sub par, pass ok, shot takes to long to fire. not the best skater, maturing is the answer, if he wants to be a nhl full time player he needs to find a new well the one he drinks at now not so good.

by Adam Leistman on Jan 31, 2011 4:41 AM EST reply actions  

I'll just agree with your post...

Unfortunately, I seem to lack the required brain power to put any of your referenced statistics into context. After trying to make sense of these Stats for the 4th time, I became angry, and was overwhelmed with the sudden urge to smash the computer screen with my face. Luckily, at the last second the “Teachings of DiPietro” reminded me that using your head is never the answer…thanks DP!

by backstop87 on Feb 4, 2011 10:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Interesting

Mind giving feedback on this? What part of the statistics did you have issues understanding? I could use help explaining these, given how new they are to some people.

by garik16 on Feb 4, 2011 11:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Interesting

Are you saying that Martin should not be considered a member of TEH CORE?

by AP77 on Jan 31, 2011 10:07 AM EST reply actions  

Well, he’s 21, so there’s plenty of time for him to get better. There was an article the Copper and Blue did about how young forwards generally have trouble defensively. I can’t find the link, but the trend is easy to see in the Oilers’ scoring chance tallies, for example. Guys like Hall, Paajarvi, and Omark generate plenty of chances, but give them all back as well (lots for, lots against).

My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
If you don't know how to use Timeonice, read this.
Behindthenet quick link to QoC/QoT/Corsi/PDO/Zonestarts
"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays

by red army line on Jan 31, 2011 10:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Right, which is why he should be on the Bridge.

I wrote this piece because I’ve seen fans on this site mention silly things like putting Schremp on the 4th line and Martin up to the 3rd line, as if Martin is a superior player.

by garik16 on Jan 31, 2011 11:02 AM EST up reply actions  

And when considering stats like that

It’s even more of an issue in this case, because MMA is obviously not in the same class as Hall, Pajarrvi, or omark.

"Gervais...he looks danger in the fist with his face!" JPinVA

by Keith Quinn on Jan 31, 2011 11:11 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

FYI Red Army, “TEH CORE” is just becoming a running joke here in player debates, so don’t take that question too seriously.

Good point on kids and their defensive play. I find myself wondering what it is Martin’s being asked to do out there (other than hit people), and how that might be affecting his development. He’s been used on the PK in blips here and there, so they must think he has something in that department.

Lighthouse Hockey: "Are you fist-f#$%ing me?!" --P.A. Parenteau

by Dominik on Jan 31, 2011 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

oh criminy don't get me started

Granted that Wright is probably overrated in the field – he’s still passable, and more than makes up for it by hitting a ton, and running the bases fairly well. The typical Mets fan thinks that if he only hits 2/3 of a ton, he’s the worst ever, conveniently forgetting how Citi depresses his power numbers and how his teammates are subpar. And they’ve been doing it to Beltran too – the only time they were even remotely happy was when he had that one ginormous year. Merely being very good at baseball (or injured) is unforgiveable, apparently.

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Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity

by mikb on Jan 31, 2011 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

And they’ve been doing it to Beltran too

Thats because Beltran deserves it.

Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)

by TheMetalChick on Jan 31, 2011 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

here we go again

I suppose one damned strikeout outweights every other thing he’s ever done in a Met uniform – three gold gloves, excellent baserunning, well-above average hitting (even with his recent injuries), and never a single off-field embarrassment or unprofessional moment. Who would have been a better center fielder over the past six years? Andruw Jones?

making you Google since 2004
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity

by mikb on Jan 31, 2011 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Keep Baseball talk out of this.

I agree with you mikb, but still. Wrong thread.

by garik16 on Jan 31, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

no, you're right

Besides, I’m not a calm person about the topic – best to let it lie.

Although JT did throw out a first pitch at a Mets game, so I can barely barely barely stretch this… aw hell who am I kidding. Total Fail.

making you Google since 2004
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity

by mikb on Jan 31, 2011 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok, thanks for the heads up.

Found the link, by the way.

Above: yeah, if there’s good reason to believe a young guy hasn’t reached his impact-offensive-talent peak, but he’s not yet good enough to get big ice time in the NHL, top-line AHL time I think is best for development.

My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
If you don't know how to use Timeonice, read this.
Behindthenet quick link to QoC/QoT/Corsi/PDO/Zonestarts
"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays

by red army line on Jan 31, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

He's not even an NHL level player yet.

Joensuu was better and Joensuu was not good. He’s a severe detriment to their efforts to win hockey games right now. He is the worst player on the team other than Gillies but Gillies somehow manages to allow fewer goals against per minute than Martin.

by TMS on Feb 1, 2011 12:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Because Gillies usually isn’t on ice long enough for the other team to score goals.

"When you’re dressing Dustin Freisen on your blueline, there’s no hope." ~ David
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.

by Mark D on Feb 1, 2011 8:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Did you really just say that our 9min/gm 4th line checking forward is a severe detriment to our winning efforts? Come on. To blame a low-minute 4th liner for our losses is somewhat inconceivable.

I’d say 95%+ of the time a hockey team doesn’t lose games because of their 4th line. They are lower impact, low minute players that usually don’t have a big on ice impact in the outcome of games. It’s really really hard to choose martin as a reason for our losses when Bailey, comeau, schremp, and maybe some other top 9 forwards have crap games and can’t come close to scoring goals or the fact that players like reese or bruno(just throwing out an example) make huge mental mistakes that lead directly to opposing goals. When you go down the totem pole for people who deserve blame for our losses, Martin isn’t close to being on the top of the list, so don’t bother mentioning him as a major part for our losing efforts.

The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.

by OzzyFan on Feb 1, 2011 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

The numbers don't lie. He's -14.

So yeah, he doesn’t play that much but in what little time he does play he’s managed to be outscored by 14 goals. That kills the team. If they just replaced him with a decent player the Isles would probably have 2 more wins. He doesn’t belong in the NHL and he’s killing the team. Don’t you notice that every time he’s out there the puck stays in our end? And if it does go down to the other end it doesn’t stay for long. He’s out of his league right now. He doesn’t belong in the NHL yet.

by TMS on Feb 2, 2011 6:29 PM EST up reply actions  

too much emphasis in armchair data...

again, how can anyone even have this discussion without addressing the obvious fact that Corsi – albeit born again religion to some – does not, and can not, measure the emotional side of the game. JT has a worse plus minus…MMa role is to hit, Isles offensive forwards lack physicality, bottom physical forwards lack offense. If anyone actually thinks the Isles win more games by getting rid of Martin – sorry but i have to laugh at that, if it was that simple, Isles would have sent him back down along with Gillies and Z. But then JT would be back to being intimidated by Pronger elbows to the head, would likely stay away from his office in the hash marks, and score less goals, resulting in less wins and may even develop concussion problems and forced to retire young. Nashville doesn’t look to Tootoo for anything outside of his role, Steve Webb as well. To win you need depth and balance everywhere, and the Isles lack that everywhere. There is no choice now but to have role players like Martin on the team…there is no one I know of to bring up who could fill that role, and frankly, the Isles are not going anywhere this year…it is all about development, and MMa learns more about what he needs to do to stay in the show right where he is now than being sent to the Bridge where they are depleted of offensive guys and have many career AHLers filling similar roles as MMa. He’ll make mistakes, he’ll learn…Martin can change the momentum of a game with a hit, that is his job…that is where he needs to be measured, or at the very least, any assessment of him needs to include his job description – not someone elses.

by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 2, 2011 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

JT's +/- is misleading as the goalies while JT is on the ice have been horrible.

The corsi shows that it’s not JT’s fault for his terrible +/-, he has a positive corsi. Martin, much less so.

And once again, if emotion causes teams to win, then it would SHOW UP IN A STAT THAT MEASURES HOW WELL A TEAM PLAYS.

by garik16 on Feb 2, 2011 6:57 PM EST up reply actions  

bullbleep again

ask a pro coach about the value of “emotion” “confidence” the “physciological” side of the game- has a lot to do with that 20 game losing streak…momentum changes within hockey games, even over the course of several games, that is preciously why armchair quarterbacking can be dangerous. Just b/c you don’t yet have a way to measure it doesn’t mean you dismiss it. We all have seen a heavy hit or fight change the momentum of a game like a Kasper hip check or a Pilon knockout on Mario, Stevens and Jagr. If the Isles are in the playoffs, Martin is in the farm developing…but that would also mean the team would have someone NHL ready playing his role, and a better farm team. They obviously don’t, and with this year already over, the rest of the season is about developing for the future. There are only two issues/questions that need to be answered, and that is, where are the teams and Martin’s long term best interests served? Given the state of the team in the NHL and on the farm, both interests are best served this year with Martin in the NHL learning. The only other option is to trade for someone, and I don’t think it would make a lot of sense to trade for someone else given where we are, and ditching Martin. The future is not now, this is about development. Again, if we are contenders or even playoff hopefuls, Martin goes to the minors and we either already have a Tootoo, Webb or team physicality, or we trade for it. Both the teams and Martin’s interest for this year or best met by Martin being in the NHL. To be honest, given the state of the team and that we are in a devlopment year, I can not even believe we are having this debate about a fourth liner brought in to check b/c it is lacking most everywhere else.

by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 2, 2011 8:32 PM EST up reply actions  

First of all, can you use paragraphs? it makes your posts near impossible to read.

Second, once again, you just ignored everything i said. CORSI MEASURES EVERYTHING THAT IMPACTS THE GAME THAT A PLAYER DOES. Corsi doesn’t tell us HOW a player is playing well or playing poorly, it just tells us WHETHER they’re playing well or poor.

If a player was, by emotion, by confidence, or whatever changing the momentum of the game, HIS CORSI WOULD NOT BE THIS TERRIBLE.

by garik16 on Feb 2, 2011 11:21 PM EST up reply actions  

We've gone ove rthis before. Corsi can't measure everything. You can hope it does, but a number of things go unmeasured in corsi and we've proven that before.

And no, corsi can’t measure emotion/confidence/heart/momentum changing among other things that are somewhat unmeasurable but impacting none the less.

The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.

by OzzyFan on Feb 2, 2011 11:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Asham or Neil?

All meet you half way Garlik, if Snow signs Asham (right handed shot which meets a team weakness and he also can play all 3 forward positions if necessary, plus wanted to come to the Island) then Martin is in the minors most of the year. If Snow trades for Chris Neil from Ottawa, then Martin is in the minors…but making that trade now would be a mistake…Martin stays b/c his job is to hit, no one else can fill that role in org. at this point, and given depletion of the Bridge..Martin will learn what he needs to do to stay in the show best in the NHL….

Finally, it may sound callous, but the future of JT and other young stars is most important, they need guys like Martin, for obvious reasons discussed. Even if there was a slight risk to Martin’s develop, which I clearly do not believe there is, that risk in my opinion has been measured and the risk of not having that role player on the team is the greater risk to me.

by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 3, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

For reference, goalies behind Tavares have a .889 SV%, behind Matt Martin, a .914%.

by garik16 on Feb 2, 2011 7:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll actually argue otherwise.

I don’t believe goalie save percentage for a player’s toi would be based on how bad a goalie plays while in net, but more of factor based on “who” is on the ice. We all know JT is at best average defensively right now for a top 9 forward. JT has a positive corsi becuase he is playing with some of the top forwards on the team, is playing in a high scoring/shooting role, and is “a lot” more talented offensively. Take for example d-men and goalie save percentage. Better defensive d-men have better save percentages when on the ice then worse defensive d-men(reese). Goalie save percentage while a d-man in on the ice is a near direct factor of how well that d-man plays defensively. Now it’s not as direct with forwards, but it is still a measurable factor in how well a forward plays defensively(as long as he’s not 2min/gm gillies). That is why JT’s goalie save percentage is as low as it is, and martin’s is higher(padded by zeke’s d play a bit, but still not terrible).

The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.

by OzzyFan on Feb 2, 2011 7:32 PM EST up reply actions  

We've gone over this, I think and i"m not repeating this now.

But trust me, it’s been found that fluctuations in goalie save % during a player’s time on ice are not their fault, but the goalies.

by garik16 on Feb 2, 2011 11:20 PM EST up reply actions  

We have gone over this, and I have seen no empirical data of your claims.

So we are on complete opposite ends there, and I have my reasons which are not, “goalie play fluctuations happen spontaneously and aren’t affected by the players on the ice in front of him”.

The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.

by OzzyFan on Feb 2, 2011 11:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Nice work garik16

Glad you put all this together in a single spot for people to reference.

I’ve said this before but I find his case curious because really no one should be able to lodge that many hits per minute without their overall play/numbers suffering. There simply aren’t that many opportunities to drill someone without taking yourself out of the play or neglecting the store. (And I notice when Martin misses a hit, he’s REALLY taken out of the play.)

So I wonder what his true potential is and how the Isles see it. If they only see him as a banger/middleweight enforcer then I suppose nothing’s lost. But if they see him as even a Konopka-Lite, wing version, then he needs different guidance and likely more AHL seasoning.

If he had a more regular hockey role, I wonder if his numbers would be quite this bad? But watching him skate now I can definitely see the skating concerns and limitations that have been part of his profile.

Lighthouse Hockey: "Are you fist-f#$%ing me?!" --P.A. Parenteau

by Dominik on Jan 31, 2011 11:22 AM EST reply actions  

So for the normalized Corsi, did you simply add .8 (faceoff correction) to the Corsi Rel? Is it supposed to be added to the Corsi Rel or actual Corsi? I’d always done the latter.

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by red army line on Jan 31, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

The latter.

I added .8 to the total corsi number (not listed above),, then derived the corsi per 60 minutes. I don’t know the faceoff numbers for the players while Martin or Konopka are off the ice, so I can’t do relative, as I’d have to adjust both numbers I’d think.

by garik16 on Jan 31, 2011 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok, sounds good. Last time I’d tried that I only got really small deltas, but I guess that’s since I was using guys that were hovering around 48-52% about halfway through the season.

My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
If you don't know how to use Timeonice, read this.
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"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays

by red army line on Jan 31, 2011 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I imagine for most players, the delta is small.

The Isles however under Scott Gordon, and now Capuano, have used players specifically as D faceoff or just D specialists the last two years (Nate Thompson-Park-Jackman last year, Konopka this year), resulting in extreme zone starts.

And extreme zone starts are where it’s probably the most useful.

by garik16 on Jan 31, 2011 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

That'd be great

It might be worth looking at Zenon’s data last year, too. I just wonder how the Isles scouted him — i.e. if they looked more deeply than faceoff guy, fighter, glue guy, etc.

Lighthouse Hockey: "Are you fist-f#$%ing me?!" --P.A. Parenteau

by Dominik on Jan 31, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

He needs to be more selective with the hits

To my eye, most of Martin’s hits are well after the puck has been released by the hittee, (I don’t even know why they’re legal – he takes at least 2 strides after the puck is gone, but that’s another discussion) so he’s effectively taking himself out of the play. I’d think if he picks his spots more wisely those numbers would improve.

by deeco on Jan 31, 2011 12:46 PM EST reply actions  

I was waiting for someone at some point to realize that Matty M should be back in BDR. With all the comings and goings from joensuu to reese, martin is still up trying to make his case but each night he does not but a few hits.

What the fish, stick?

by Homey Chives on Jan 31, 2011 2:12 PM EST reply actions  

I wonder if one issue is the 4th line is going to be a black hole (both on the ice , and in a developmental sense) to some degree no matter who is out there.

Does JJ-Konopka-Colliton make a passable fourth line? Or does that become a line that’s still digging itself out, except without the physical threat save for the random Konopka fight?

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by Dominik on Jan 31, 2011 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

My thought is this.

The fourth line is probably going to be bad during the rebuild for sure. Which is why its a good spot to fit vets like Zenon, and lets say Hunter, right now when they come back….these are players who don’t have a long future ahead of them for the Isles, and aren’t going to grow.

If the Isles dont think Colliton or JJ are part of the top 3 lines in the future, then they’re fine on the 4th line. Otherwise, let em rack up time in Bridgeport.

by garik16 on Jan 31, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Martin gets so little shots it's amazing

He really doesn’t create any offense at all. I know you cannot expect much from the 4th line but man, how much better would we be if we had a 4th line that did something.

The lack of bottom 6 production (4th line especially) combined with horrible production from the D has really sunk this offense. Most teams get occasional contributions from the bottom, we get nothing. Some teams have D-Men with more goals than our entire D Core combined. We have no room for a guy who only throws hits and never shoots the puck. I’d much rather see a JJ than a Matt Martin.

You mean to tell me shooting the puck from 70 feet out doesn't earn us extra goals?

by Anarcurt on Jan 31, 2011 4:03 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah but Martin kicks some ass.

That is when he’s not eating right hands to the face. (Tanner Glass).

Kidding. I agree, there are better players we could get for nothing who would contribute more offensively.

by TMS on Feb 1, 2011 12:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Question:

Can the Islanders afford to send MMA down without first adding some toughness to the team?

by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 1, 2011 12:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Errr, Of course, is Martin's toughness adding something to the team right now?

There’s this though among fans that we need toughness on any hockey team. But as Martin shows, that sometimes just isn’t the best option.

The Isles would not be better off just without Martin, toughness or not.

Seriously, what exactly do you think the toughness of Martin is doing for this team?

by garik16 on Feb 1, 2011 1:01 AM EST up reply actions  

MMa

I believe there was an article published somewhere a while back pointing out the number of games the Isles had gone without a single player dropping the gloves, if memory serves me correctly, I believe MMA was the guy who broke that streak…he’s no Scott Harknell talent wise, but I do think the Isles need to add some guys who are tough like Martin or better and can also play the game. I see Martin as a career 4th liner though.

by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 1, 2011 1:24 AM EST up reply actions  

And what's the problem with a player not dropping the gloves?

You’re assuming that fighting more often is necessary for this team, and that a drop in fighting will be bad. I don’t quite think that’s the case.

Also, looking at hockeyfights.com, The fightless streak was last year from Dec 26 to Feb 10. During that time period without fights, the Islanders went 9-11 (Ignoring OT points, and counting shootout wins). 9-11 was way above average for the Isles last year, so clearly the lack of fights didn’t hurt us.

by garik16 on Feb 1, 2011 1:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Not necessarily a problem with "a" player...

but I do believe fighting is part of the game or else it would have been banned altogether. You need guys who can play with stars like a JT and answer the call when a guy like Pronger decides to take liberties and throw elbows around. A Jason Wiemer can do wonders too against someone like a Darcy Tucker, intimidating smaller forwards. I’d love to see a Scott Hartnell type player in an Isles uniform.

by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 1, 2011 2:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Hartnell is a good hockey player though.

And Pronger never has to answer for his BS. You get to find Jody Shelley, not Pronger.

by TMS on Feb 2, 2011 6:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the main reason people advocate MMa on a higher line/the PP

is that he’s a big enough body to provide a good screen for linemates who can score, and he can gut it out in front of the net and take some whacks.

I think the whole fourth line suffers from not really having a “role.” They don’t seem to really be an energy line, or a checking line, or a defensive line or much of anything, and I think it’s because you’ve got three guys out there typically who have different (and not necessarily complimentary) strengths.

Colliton seems to be a defensive, PK style guy.
Konopka is an enforcer/faceoff guy.
MMa is a checker/agitator type.
Gillies is more or less strictly an enforcer.

That’s oversimplifying perhaps, but I don’t think I’m too far off. I’ve said it in another thread, but I’d love to see Hunter take MMa under his wing to teach him when to throw the body and make him more defensively responsible.

by ilopan on Jan 31, 2011 4:31 PM EST reply actions  

I don't think they suffer for not having roles.

I think they suffer for not being good enough at hockey. It may seem like a great idea in your imagination to have Martin screening the goalie and the other guys controlling the puck and making plays but in real hockey everyone ends up with the puck at times and everyone has to skate and stickhandle and pass and the real problem is that he’s not good enough at any of those things.

by TMS on Feb 1, 2011 12:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Heh. Well Haley's likely to be worse (potentially)

But sending Martin down to play on a first or second line is of best interest, and Haley is essentially expendable. If this was a team in a playoff race, it’d be an awful idea, but with the team playing near the bottom if not the bottom of the league, using an expendable player instead of a player who could use some development and possibly turn into a useful player is probably a plus.

by garik16 on Jan 31, 2011 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I like this article, and the main purpose of it.

I know you blatantly are trying to say Martin sucks. But it’s not all his fault, as he has played a ton of gms on the 4th line with 4th liners that have little to no offensive upside. But that isn’t the main thing.

The purpose of this article is that Matt Martin is an ok 4th liner, some might say good because of his checking abilities, fighting, and agitating style. BUT, he could be more and needs more time in bridgeport if we/the team thinks he can become a better player. And based on his rookie year ahl production and even ohl production, he can become a 3rd liner, or at least a better 4th liner. But the big question is, does the team thing he will become anything better then a 4th line banger/fighter/agitator?

But I agree with you, for the best of martin and his development, he should be in bridgeport for the rest of the year, and probably even at least half of next year.

The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.

by OzzyFan on Jan 31, 2011 11:03 PM EST reply actions  

I know you blatantly are trying to say Martin sucks ----NOW.

I’m trying to say that he CURRENTLY is terrible. Not that he always will be (thus the Bridge thing.

“But the big question is, does the team think he will become anything better then a 4th line banger/fighter/agitator?”
If the answer is no, then there’s also no point of him being up here right now, since Zenon can do that job just as well, as can Gillies for the fighting part. Don’t need 3 of those on a team.

by garik16 on Jan 31, 2011 11:47 PM EST up reply actions  

lol, I should have put now.

But we need 3 4th liners. Who would honestly be more impacting in a 4th line role, sans gillies/konopka/colliton, then martin right now?

The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.

by OzzyFan on Jan 31, 2011 11:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Good question.

Joensuu was better than Martin while he was here but not that much better. If Weight comes back we can bump someone down to 4th line who’ll be better.

by TMS on Feb 1, 2011 12:24 AM EST up reply actions  

That would work.

The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.

by OzzyFan on Feb 1, 2011 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

He definitely is NOT saying that Martin is an OK 4th liner. He is saying that Martin

is a terrible 4th liner right now and maybe someday he’ll be better but right now he is not good enough to deserve a 4th line spot even on one of the NHL’s worst teams.

by TMS on Feb 1, 2011 12:22 AM EST up reply actions  

It's not a 4th liners job to have a great corsi. Most 4th liners are not supposed/asked to produce offensively. If they do, great, but if not it doesn't mean that they are bad.

Take Konopka for example. Terrible corsi, but his agitating, fighting, pk, faceoff, and clubhouse skills make him an above average sought after 4th liner. Sure corsi says he’s terrible, but there are some playoff teams that would likely give a good draft pick for him and could really use some of his skills come playoff time.

And Martin is not a 4th liner on any nhl team’s? Throw him through waivers and watch him disappear then. I guarantee you that there are over a handful of teams that would gobble him up if he wasn’t waivers exempt and hit the waiver wire. He’s young, he’s an ok/decent 4th liner, and he’s got some 3rd liner upside. Why do some people hate so much on a player that has a little outcome on a game, does his job well, has future potential, and is young?

The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.

by OzzyFan on Feb 1, 2011 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

two points
It’s not a 4th liners job to have a great corsi.

Why not? Nobody ever stumbled into greatness by trying to be merely competent. He may not be capable of great… but outshot by 23 per 60 while he’s on the ice? What any team ought to reasonably expect in the 5-10 minutes their fourth line gets is simply to hold things together. Minus-6, adjusted, like Konopka, for example: and he wins tons of draws and has other non-point-production value. Minus-23 is really astounding, especially for a guy who’s not getting a lot of time. He hits, and that’s good (in context). He also takes way more penalties than he draws, something for which everyone rightly dinged Sim for this season – and Sim was a better player in other areas.

Throw him through waivers and watch him disappear then.

Not the point. Any such team would either be worse off than the Isles – in which case, it can’t possibly hurt to give a weaker player a chance to make a sudden advance with better ice time – or would be thinking of two years down the road. If he were currently above-average and sought after, he’d be drawing trade talk, or else he’d be playing like it and earning extra time.

FWIW I like Martin and I think he’ll grow into the role. Not there yet. Maybe not as horrible as the numbers here, but these are fairly shocking – I honestly thought these numbers would look better given that Martin’s good moments really catch the eye. Just not enough of them.

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by mikb on Feb 1, 2011 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Trade talk=high impact player, not an ok player. The point of Martin being picked off of waivers is a fact that means he is not worthless or terrible(and is young).

You also have to account for the toi he spends with konopka and other 4th liners. Konopka is not fast, and loves forechecking as much as martin, that hurts corsi. And you remember how we complain about chemistry, how many different 4th liner linemates has Martin had? I know he needs to take some responsibility for his numbers, but to blame him for everything is hugely condesending and not close to fair.

Yes I agree, his corsi should be better, but when your playing on one of the worst teams in the league, playing with inconsistent linemates, and, take a big note here, “playing in your 1st full nhl season”, you are likely going to not have things go your way, going to have defensive issues, and going to have adjustment time, among other adjustment things, to the nhl level/speed/game. If people didn’t think this was somewhat expected, then they are looking at the player and situation completely wrong.

The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.

by OzzyFan on Feb 1, 2011 6:14 PM EST up reply actions  

You are once again misunderstanding Corsi.

Corsi is like +/-, a statistic that measures the net result of positives and negatives while you’re on the ice. A player having a good corsi is a player who’s impact while on the ice seems to be resulting in more shots directed at an opposing net than his own, while a bad is the opposite.

Having a bad corsi is bad. Period. It means, that regardless of what intangibles you’re doing, while you’re on the ice, the opponents are winning. That is BAD. I don’t see why that’s hard.

Now Corsi has problems, in that it can be impacted by circumstances. I address that in the post, by normalizing the corsi for faceoff-start opportunities. The result is that Konopka does NOT have a terrible Corsi. It’s not great, but for a fourth liner, that’s not a bad result.

The Question is: Is Matt Martin adequate to play on the 4th line right now, given how he’s playing. The answer is no. A 4th liner is expected to have worse corsi than a 1st-3rd liner, but he should not be giving up over over 21 shots per 60 on his opposing net more than the average player on the team (which is roughly a guy who’s a 2nd-3rd liner). That’s BEYOND AWFUL.

Martin might disappear if you put him on Waivers…but if he did, the team that picked him up would not play him in the NHL, they’d send him to the AHL. They’d be picking him up just because he’s 21, not because he has any ability to play in the NHL at this point.

by garik16 on Feb 1, 2011 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I know exactly what corsi is now. And Martin's job on the 4th line is not close to trying to get many shots on net, and not likely playing hard sold defense either. So yes, it makes sense that his corsi isn't spectacular considering his job on the ice.

Let’s see you play with konopka and another average 4th line talent(say slow skating JJ) for most of your games and see how many shots on net you get, and see how much defensive struggling you had because you are playing with 2 of the slowest skaters on the team on your line(JJ and Konopka). “Look at the situation” and the last thing you should is complain about Martin not doing his job, and look at my posts above.

The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.

by OzzyFan on Feb 1, 2011 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

A player who plays 9+ minutes a game SHOULD BE ABLE TO EITHER HELP GET SHOTS ON NET OR PLAY DEFENSE

You can win at hockey in some combination of two ways: Good D or Good O. If you contribute negatively to both, and play 10 minutes a game……WHY ARE YOU ON THE TEAM?!

The only player who doesn’t contribute to O or D is the goon, who plays 2 minutes a game.

by garik16 on Feb 1, 2011 11:07 PM EST up reply actions  

A goon is a player that can't function on the ice, Gillies/Boogaard/Godard/etc. Martin can absolutely function and has upside.

The problem is that he is playing on a line where he has mass limitations of succeeding on. Right now he is an ok 4th liner, but he definitely has the potential to be a good 3rd liner in him. Just look at the players he was playing with and you honestly tell me that they wouldn’t hold back a josh bailey or a frans nielsen or a moulson from playing their game? Come on. If you play 9-10min/gm with slow skaters, that love forechecking, and that don’t have great passing skills or shooting skills, how do you honestly expect the man to have a good corsi? Should it be better, yes. Should it be loads better then what it is, no. But looking at the big picture and taking “everything” into account, you just can’t say it’s his fault. And did you even think to put into perspective the toi/faceoffs konopka takes along side other linemates? Do you think those faceoffs in some crunch time scenarios with top 6 linemates help his corsi? Factor that in too, and Martin doesn’t look half as bad as you think he is. You are taking a thought, and going politician with it. This isn’t a directly cause and effect scenario with players and numbers. You have to take linemates, toi, roles, and among other things into account when breaking things down, even corsi.

End points, Martin is a 21yr old rookie, playing in a 4th line checking role, with slow linemates, linemates that are offensively limited, linemates that love to forecheck, playing on a struggling team, and is learning on the job. There is nothing wrong with him having the season he is having. Martin has more then double the checks of any player on our team and fights. His physical role and presence on the team makes him worth his weight to our 4th line regardless what his corsi says. Maybe you don’t understand the role and purpose of an energy line? Because that is Martin’s purpose on the team right now, and he is fulfilling it adequately. If coaces wanted Martin to be the best he can be and show his offensive and defensive skills, they wouldn’t throw him with the players they are. A 4th liner’s job rarely entails to produce offensively, and if you’re actually going to argue about a 4th liner’s offensive production/shots on net, then you are out of your mind. Sure, he should be able to play a bit better defense, but other then a couple forwards on our team, who shouldn’t? Sorry for me saying this, but I find it quite insane for someone to hold a 4th liner to such high principles and standards. A 4th liner is a 4th liner for a reason, and in all due respects, Martin is an average nhl 4th liner right now.

The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.

by OzzyFan on Feb 2, 2011 12:01 AM EST up reply actions  

You really didn't read the article did you.
You have to take linemates, toi, roles, and among other things into account when breaking things down, even corsi.

I DID. I DID UP ABOVE. And it shows that Martin drags ZENON DOWN, not the other way around. (Gillies is terrible, but plays for less than a 1/4 of Martin’s minutes, and cannot be held greatly responsible).

Taking teammates into account, you’re left with the conclusion that Martin is the worst regular player right now on the team.

by garik16 on Feb 2, 2011 12:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Not necessarily. We need a look at the teamates % of ice time. I guarantee you that Zeke has played a lot more time on ice with top 9 forwards then martin does because his faceoff skills.

That would bring zeke’s #’s up, and since zeke spends more time with better/top-9 players then martin, and martin and zeke have the same relative corsi, it would mean that zeke is the weaker player corsi playing wise(which is likely true when you think about it). Think about it.

In fact, anyone remember the site where we check teammates time on ice with other players? I know benhasna and others have posted it, but I forgot it. That site could be useful in this argument.

The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.

by OzzyFan on Feb 2, 2011 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Dobber Hockey

"Gervais...he looks danger in the fist with his face!" JPinVA

by Keith Quinn on Feb 2, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks,

I checked the toi, and both play about equal time with better linemates(even when you take out zeke’s pk time). So it’s a negligible factor.

The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.

by OzzyFan on Feb 2, 2011 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Except the Corsi Rel Qual Team measurement ranks Zenon's linemates WORSE than Martin

If Zenon was playing any significant amount of time with much better players than Martin, his corsi rel Qual team (which measures relative corsi of one’s linemates based on ice time), then that number would be LOWER than Martin’s, but it’s not.

by garik16 on Feb 2, 2011 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

the linemate thing cuts both ways

It’s just as likely that Konopka’s numbers are hurt by lugging Martin around the rink, than it is that Martin’s numbers are hurt by Konopka.

Nobody, btw, is misunderstanding “energy line” – and nobody expects PPG action out of them. BUT, it is not unreasonable to expect that, over 8-10 minutes, your fourth line will hold its own on most shifts. In the 1-0 loss to Pittsburgh, the Pens’ fourth line was a terrific unit. It won’t happen every night but you absolutely can expect that they won’t get routinely crushed… especially since they tend to pay soft minutes against similarly-weak units.

When the Isles had twelvity-nine people on IR, Martin was a necessity. Now, he’s a liability – through no fault of his own – I can’t emphasize enough that I really think highly of his potential and his future, but if he’s really not ready now, it’s no benefit to have him up here, now that the team is he-lt-y. :::pounding on every wooden surface in the room like Neal Peart:::

Martin ought to be in the Bridge, honing his trade. He can knock down AHLers and bang in front and get the 15+ minutes in more offensive situations, work on his hands and his timing. I really think he’ll be an asset on the third line in a couple of seasons – and he has the luxury of time, as do the Islanders (finally).

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by mikb on Feb 2, 2011 12:36 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree, Martin should be more defensively responsible as should his linemates.

But as I stated, the odds are stacked against him because he is a rookie playing with slow skating and limitedly skilled linemates. You honestly can’t expect more from martin given the scenario. Most nhl forwards in their rookie season have defensive issues, and martin is obviously no exception to this trend(just look at jt last year). Factor in the linemates and all, and this was expected.

End points:(not directed at you completely)
-You honestly can’t expect martin to produce better shots/pts with the linemates he has in the position he is playing
-You can expect martin’s defensive abilities to better, since almost all rookie forwards struggle a bit defensively entering this league.
-Can we honestly say konopka is a better hockey player then martin? Fighting and faceoffs aside, martin is bigger, stronger, a better skater, and much more physical presence(checking). Offensive skills are still questionable for martin and konopka though.
-Martin is 21 and probably doing the best he can with the hand he is given. As mikb said, not his fault.
-Martin should either be in the ahl better his complete game, or be playing on the 4th line with better linemates then zeke and jj/colliton(and a little 3rd line time) if he really wants to mature correctly and be the best he can be.
-Martin is just about your average 4th liner. He fights, he agitates, he checks “a lot”, and isn’t a complete hockey player. But he is still a rookie and it’s safe to say he should be noticably better next year all around.

On a side note, JP posted an idea that schremp could possibly be playing for a 4th line center job next yr vs konopka. I like that idea. Add schremp to the 4th line with martin and comeau/enter able body skater here, and we may very well see what martin is capable offensively and have a 4th line that can produce, protect, and help out in other areas.

The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.

by OzzyFan on Feb 2, 2011 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Final words:

Yes we can honestly say Zenon is better than Martin right now. Zenon is better at D and faceoffs. They’re both bad at O. Martin is young, and may have the basic skills (Size, Strength and skating ability) to IN THE FUTURE be better than Zenon, but it’s clearly not there yet, as seen above.

I don’t mind Schremp instead of Zenon on the fourth line, honestly. I hate how Gordon (and now Capuano) seemed to designate the 4th line as a totally defensive line, as I thought that was beyond counterintuitive, and was putting worse players in the D zone more often…though this year, part of that is due to Zenon’s faceoffs, which are a mitigating factor.

by garik16 on Feb 2, 2011 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Either way, this whole debate we are having is silly.

Is Martin an average 4th liner or bad 4th liner, lol. Either way his play has very little outcome on 95%` of the games he plays. We both know what’s best for him, and we both know he will better himself. And that, is all that matters.

The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.

by OzzyFan on Feb 2, 2011 7:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I like Matty and all, but i just don't think he's NHL ready.

There was one play last night, where he had the puck, did a nice little move, and I was like, “Ah, nice, he’s getting it,” then he lost it in his skates and had no idea where it went…

In a few years, when he loses the baby-ness, he’ll be a beast on the 3rd and 4th lines.

by Les Beaver on Feb 2, 2011 11:06 AM EST reply actions  

But he also

Stunned Byfulin with an awesome open ice hit just inside the blue line and separated him from the puck after he skated through (in semi Comeau style) our entire team. Unfortunately, he’s the only guy we have who brings that.

"Gervais...he looks danger in the fist with his face!" JPinVA

by Keith Quinn on Feb 2, 2011 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Keep Martin on NHL roster

one of the Isles problems is they have too many players they depend on for offense who do not or can not bring physicality – and they have too many physical players who do not bring offense. Can’t mix them into one, so…weary as I am of placing too much value on arm chair data that can not measure the emotional side of the game…Martin stays until you can find someone else to fill his role…if Martin becomes a third liner, great..4th liner, he’s met my expectations…if we are to send him down to the minors for issues mentioned in this thread, well hey, there are lots of others who need to go first. Even JT’s plus minus is awful. This is a development year, I am not worried so much about Martin’s Corsi – Would Tootoo be on the ice doing his thing with minor league Defensemen on the ice? Martin’s job is to take the body, make room and protect. Come up with a stat measurement that actually measures his job performance according to his – Martin’s – job description. If I had Jason Weimer, Martin would be in the minors, but I don’t. So Martin gets his experience in the NHL., and other than maybe protecting Rhet, the Bridge is so drained of players I do not believe Martin’s development will be advanced by sending him down…quite the contrary, I think Martin’s devlopment is best forwarded with the Isles given the circumstances.

by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 2, 2011 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

FOR THE LOVE OF FREAKING GOD

The D men being terrible doesn’t mean anything, because that’s the same for Every forward.

Moreover, there’s no evidence that the Isles need yet another hitting player on the 4th line. ZERO. You may like physical hockey. You may think it helps the team, and it might. But when Martin is on the ice, the Isles play DRASTICALLY worse.

Corsi doesn’t measure goals, or assists. Those measurements will always shortchange Martin (probably). It is a measurement of how well the TEAM plays with the player on the ice. If Martin’s hitting is HELPING THE TEAM, then WHY ISN"T IT SHOWING UP IN THE TEAM’S SHOT DIFFERENTIAL WHILE HE’S O THE ICE?!

by garik16 on Feb 2, 2011 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

bull

D means everything as per when you put a guy like Martin on the ice….compare Martin to his equal role players on other teams, otherwise its apples and oranges. Again, who did Detriot place on D when Kocer was on ice? Go through numerous teams and you see the same thing. Just b/c Isles D is so bad they do not have a choice does not mean you don’t put your guy like Martin or a Kocer out there.

FTR, I like hockey period…and phsicality is a huge part of the game. no one wins without, just as guys like Bossy score goals, someone makes the room, wears down the opposition and makes sure no one takes liberties on your scorer. This to me is amounting to “politics” i’m right no your wrong, is there a prize or something at the end of the debate?

The Isles have holes everywhere, and i never said they need more hitting on the fourth line….i said the Isles offensive guys are not physical and the physical guys lack offense. Fourth line is the only place to put guys like Gillies and Z, other than faceoffs. When the Isles improve, those two, at least Gillies, are not around…and the Isles improve when their all around game improves, including forwards that play with physicality, backcheck, and D that hit and play defense. If your going to play non-physical like Bossy, well you better score like him. Martin has to stay until the Isles improve their overall physicality, or the Isles find someone better now to fill his role.

Most glaring, Corsi – a born again religion to some – does not and can not measure the emotional side of game. Ever see the momentum of a game change after a big hit? That is Martin’s job. Other than KO, Isles top six can not do that.

by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 2, 2011 5:25 PM EST up reply actions  

“D means everything as per when you put a guy like Martin on the ice….compare Martin to his equal role players on other teams, otherwise its apples and oranges. Again, who did Detriot place on D when Kocer was on ice? Go through numerous teams and you see the same thing. Just b/c Isles D is so bad they do not have a choice does not mean you don’t put your guy like Martin or a Kocer out there.”

You are missing the point. Martin’s corsi is so much worse than every other Islander…who PLAY WITH THE SAME DEFENSE. The D matters, this is why we adjust for that with relative stats, which compare a player to the teammates who play with the same D. No Question. But when we adjust, Martin is by far the worst.

“Most glaring, Corsi – a born again religion to some – does not and can not measure the emotional side of game. Ever see the momentum of a game change after a big hit? That is Martin’s job. Other than KO, Isles top six can not do that.”

YES! YES IT DOES. Corsi is NOT a counting stat of a player. It measures HOW WELL A TEAM IS PLAYING relevant to opponents. If Martin changes the momentum of a game via a big hit, HIS CORSI WILL IMPROVE AS THE TEAM PLAYS BETTER.

by garik16 on Feb 2, 2011 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

This is not necessarily true
HIS CORSI WILL IMPROVE AS THE TEAM PLAYS BETTER.

Because often, these guys have short shifts and limited ice time. The celeration may be across other lines> This is one of those things that doesn’t have a metric that I wanted to try to measure. The same can be said for a big penalty kill. Sometimes we see a momentum change, but it is after the killer is off the ice, and the next even strength shift begins. Tough to truly say how those things may impact things without watching actual footage and/or having someone track what happens within the 2 minutes or so after those types of events.

"Gervais...he looks danger in the fist with his face!" JPinVA

by Keith Quinn on Feb 2, 2011 8:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep. Especially considering how many big checks martin throws that could change momentum.

It’s hard to measure things like this, and martin’s checks in size and number are one of the reasons why I think martin should be considered an average nhl 4th liner. But it doesn’t matter. He is what he is and I’d be sad with him gone. He bring toughness, agitating, fighting, and a big ass physical presence. And those attributes can’t be underminded when we are a team that greatly lacks them all around.

The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.

by OzzyFan on Feb 2, 2011 8:56 PM EST up reply actions  

In a single shift you're correct.

But if Martin makes a huge hit and changes momentum, it should show up in Martin’s own play AFTER that hit, whether on that shift or the next.

by garik16 on Feb 2, 2011 11:22 PM EST up reply actions  

It doesn't have to show up in his own shift, but I agree it'd be great if it did.

Martin’s hits, even if he takes himself out of the play and we get scored on, may have positive influences later on other players on other lines on BOTH teams, regardless of how shitty HE PLAYS after that hit. Who can measur or quantify the effect that has on that game’s outcome, let alone its effect on FUTURE games? Noone can.

"Seriously that's the last time you guys f#@%ing won?" -RSH (about beating the Penguins in '93)

by Bryan2112 on Feb 3, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Garik, I agree with you to some degree, but in all fairness
yet another hitting player on the 4th line

Nobody hits like Martin…No one. Only a few in the league really. It really is a problem on two fronts. If there was anyone else on this roster that could do it, I would be all for having him at BPT immediately, but I’d be almost willing to bet, if you asked Z to do more of it, his Corsi would be in the Martin area now. (I know, unprovable). What may be most beneficial then is sheltering him. Move Bailey to center between grabs and KO and put Matin with Nielsen and Comeau? Who knows…it just seems like our parts don’t fit together!

"Gervais...he looks danger in the fist with his face!" JPinVA

by Keith Quinn on Feb 2, 2011 8:35 PM EST up reply actions  

precisely..

I agree with Quinn (good Irish name)…“it just seems like our parts don’t fit together”…that is part of the Isles problems…

by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 2, 2011 8:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I love it and we undermind it. Martin is one of the best nhl hitters in size and number. Pretty damn good for a 4th liner.

The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.

by OzzyFan on Feb 2, 2011 8:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Martin hits hard.

but it’s obviously not helping the team. That’s my point.

by garik16 on Feb 2, 2011 11:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Not vastly, no. But when he was first brought up this year, a number of his hits could have been considered game changing.

The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.

by OzzyFan on Feb 2, 2011 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

disagree

Martin’s physicality is helping the team – you can’t you a measurement that doesn’t measure his role to claim it isn’t helping. Ask JT and the others, I am sure they appreciate Martin a lot.

by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 3, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not really interested in making hay over a first year player

Most guys climbing their way up suck ass for a season or two. As for the breakdown between Schremp, Comeau and Martin? I think Martin could be a much more valuable Net crashing forward off the third line as he puts his game together.

As far as where all three are in their development?

Schremp; All the tools in the world but posseses really bad play anticipation and poor positioning in the offensive zone. Basicly loaded with all the tools but below average hockey sense.

Comeau; Perimeter puck posession player and will never be the goal scorer they are preasuring him to be. Mainly due to what plagues Schremp; Below average hockey sense. Like Schremp, needs an infusion of heart. All things said, in the right system he could max out at 20 goals and that would be a career high.

Martin; Could be a valuable third line piece that crashes the net. Needs improvement in the skating department but posesses tons of heart. Something that Schremp and Comeau lack. Perhaps if we could combine all three players into one (Schremartineau) we could have a top two forward. I would say that on a team that’s stuggeling to play a full sixty minutes a night, Martin would be the more valubale of the three based on what’s lacking now.

But this is all useless stuff anyways. Martin could go the next three games, have four goals and all of a sudden his rookie greens are no longer an issue. Player like Martin take longer to develop than Schremp, Bailey and Comeau given the style of game he’s required to play to have success. Thirty games is not really anything to give you enough data or evidence to come up with a valuable analysis of anyone in this game.

Give it two seasons and see where we go from there.

by Chickendirt on Feb 2, 2011 12:19 PM EST reply actions  

Not making hay, but Martin is way younger than those other two guys.

(Also, Schremp at least, if not Comeau also, was a much better prospect at Martin’s age).

The point is that Martin is way worse than both of those guys right now, and really should be on the Bridge to develop.

by garik16 on Feb 2, 2011 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

They are different players

To say that one is worse than the other is kind of pushing the envelope a bit wouldn’t you say?

by Chickendirt on Feb 2, 2011 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

A hockey player's job is to help his team win.

at that, Martin is undoubtedly worse than the other two guys. It’s not even close.

by garik16 on Feb 2, 2011 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Umm

Martin is fourth on the team in shot blocking as forwards go. For a guy who’s billed as a banger and a first year player that’s actually really good. Konpka has six more blocked shots with ten more games played. Moulson and Neilson are the other two ahed of him.

Martin’s struggles are none too uncommon for a player of his type at his age. He’s guilty of trying to do to much rather than pick his spots. So when he throws ten hits in a game he throws himself out of position.

This isn’t alarming enough to warrrant sending him down. It’s just part of the learning curve. As a first year guy having come up on team while it was a mess his numbers are going to look really shitty when looking at Corsi stats or +/-. Since this team has pulled out of the funk he really hasn’t looked anything resembling terrible.

He looks like a kid learning the ropes.

by Chickendirt on Feb 2, 2011 7:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree, those guys were in the ahl at martin's age, we have no basis for comparison other then #'s. And Schremp is all offense, Comeau is up and down, and Martin is a physical presence first and foremost with other abilities.

The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.

by OzzyFan on Feb 2, 2011 7:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Schremp & Comeau

I think with Schremp’s size and lack of physicality as well as a defensive game, Schremp has to cut it as either a top 6 forward, or release him. If you can’t cut it with two none playoff teams (Edmonton) your career is on the line. The only reason I can see to keep Schremp is shootouts…and that is not a good enough reason, especially when Isles have lots of shootout specialists. Comeau? Always liked him better than Colliton when Colliton was considered the better prospect. I lost it for BC though. Bring him back next year b/c Isles desperately need right shooters up front, but most importantly, Comeau is an UFA after next season…he has all the motivation in the world to have a good year, sell him high…

by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 2, 2011 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Why?

Why does a player have to be a top 2 line forward, if we’re not paying him much? I’m failing to see why that prevents him from playing on a lower line.

by garik16 on Feb 2, 2011 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Question for Garik

Is there a minimum number of games that a player must have before corsi stats start becoming statistically significant?

by AP77 on Feb 2, 2011 12:56 PM EST reply actions  

Sort of.

You’re really asking: at what point can we honestly believe that a player’s corsi truely reflects his current talent level. (Corsi itself is an observation…so even one game of play’s corsi shows how a player has performed…but it doesn’t tell you anything about a player’s talent level, as he could’ve had just a bad game).

So to answer that question, the answer is yes, though I don’t know exact numbers. I would in general ignore corsi through 10 games at the least (My Nino post was an exception due to the circumstances), treat it with respect but caution from 10-15, and after 20 you start to see things matter. At half a season almost of play, Martin’s numbers are probably a good indicator of where he is as a player.

(For example, Grabner had a horrible Corsi through his first 10 games, but now is clearly positive compared to the rest of the team…which is probably not surprising considering how he did seem to turn it on AFTER a few games, as opposed to right from the start.)

by garik16 on Feb 2, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow, I had no idea…Thanks for the post Garik. I really haven’t paid a whole lot of attention to Martin this year, probably due to his limited role and icetime. I certainly haven’t focused on his play enough to notice any subtle nuances, good or bad, to his game. I just thought of his role as taking short shifts and running into people which I was fine with but I had no idea he was playing so poorly. I think there are better options, Joensuue for example. I’d also like to see Rakshani get some more games but I’d rather him playing with bridgeport and getting a ton of minutes then coming up here and getting stuck on the 4th line. Still, you’d have to imagine that either he or Joensuue would be replacement level or better (to borrow a sabr term) I always though Matt Martin could in a few years be a serviceable energy guy and in the best case scenario maybe a checking line guy who contributes around 10 goals a year. But if he is having a negative impact defensivly than a bottom six role would not suit him until he learns how to be more responisble. He has little offensive upside so if he wants a long and fruitfull NHL career he better learn the game. will have to pay more attention when Matt Martin is on the ice.

by MatthewM11 on Feb 2, 2011 2:17 PM EST reply actions  

nope...

Rhet makes or breaks it as a top six, he and MMa are two entirely different players, fighting for entirely different jobs. Neither is competition to the other. Joensuu is an enigma…has the size, can hit, is a middle weight fighter, but can’t skate, doesn’t hit as much as a bottom six should…and doesn’t seem to bring any offense either, the one area he may have advantage over MMa. I don’t see Joensuu as anything more than a 4th liner, and he does not bring the big hit like Martin, so to be he is an AHLer you bring up to cover injuries…if one wishes to replace Martin, you must provide an adequate replacement – Webb no longer plays the game. And the Bridge is so depleted, MMa development is not being hurt from not being there. Isles are not making playoffs, this is about development now, and the best place for Martin to learn what he needs to do to survive in the show, is well, a team like the Isles right now. You start at the top – forward number 1 – not forward number 12 – when assessing/rationalizing whatifs and who is at fault.

by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 2, 2011 5:37 PM EST reply actions  

Why does a bottom 6 player need to be a physical guy? Why can't you have skill players on the 3rd and 4th lines?

You haven’t yet answered this.

(Also, I’m not suggesting Matt Martin (i hate the MMa abbreviation) is responsible for the team’s losses. I’m just saying he’s been godawful.)

by garik16 on Feb 2, 2011 5:46 PM EST up reply actions  

no reason why a bottom six can’t be a positional guy as opposed to physical, but you need an overall team balance. I realize their is no exact science or a magic number as per how many you can have, but I do realize you need a balance. If you don’t have the physical players, your team is sadly lacking and at a distinct disasvantage. While our guys would be getting hit, hurt or intimidated and worn down, we have little ways of responding. Jason Blake is an example, but does Blake ever break out without Scatchard and Weimer? Or, does Blake get as much room out there without those two? Blake could also check a bit though…Rhett job is offense though and that is where he is going to make or break it into the show. If you have skilled guys, assuming were talking about players projected to be offense like Rhett – on your third line, you’ve obviously got depth – Isles need more skill on top six lines as well…and fourth line? why? if you have that much offensive depth that you have skilled guys playing 8 minutes a game on the fourth, if you are lacking balance in other areas, i.e., role players, to me there is little question the team is going to make some trades to aquire the necessary role players. Even Gretzky was surrounded by guys like Seminko, McSorley, and role players who also were good both ways, and even physical stars like Messier. You need depth and balance at all positions and every role. Isles have so many holes right now it is rediculous. The Bridge has lots of AHL vets down there that can fill the same role as Martin (since you don’t like MMa lol). That team is so depopulated, I am more worried about Martin regressing than progressing if sent down. The Isles season is over, this is about development and in spite of the fact that Martin will make some mistakes, I believe being on the Isles is the best way to teach him what he needs to do to stay in the show…that doesn’t mean he keeps the spot next year. Rhett on the other hand, I think his development is advance by being in minors with lots of ice time…he needs more than fourth line minutes. He needs to be in the Bridge. As per the Isles managment, Doug Weight and Stevie Y were soft too in their rookie and early seasons…and Yzerman had guys like Probert and Wendel Clarke’s cousin Joey Kocer…JT will probably improve his physical game as he ages, but I believe management has no choice right now. Their young, and most of their top line guys lack physicality, hence the imbalance…that they are attempting to “correct the market” by bringing in guys like Gillies, Z and Martin is obvious to me, and again, these guys have little to no offensive upside. When the top six improve all around and Isles have a solid 3rd, fixing the 4th line will be a simple task.

by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 2, 2011 6:27 PM EST reply actions  

Tip for lifer...

I think this suggestion was already made, but paragraph breaks would really help the readability of your comments. Speaking strictly from a usability standpoint, I see that big block of text and my eyes get lost.

Lighthouse Hockey: Oddly, we *do* particularly care.

by Dominik on Feb 3, 2011 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Since there is a lot of 4th line talk right now, if we have the luxury, how about a 4th line that looks like this next year:

Comeau-Schremp-Hunter/Martin

Talk about having a multi-tooled 4th line that can produce. Comeau is a pk specialist, Schremp is a pp specialist, and hunter/martin bring the physicality and toughess you want from at least 1 4th liner on your team(martin fights too, so take that into account).

The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.

by OzzyFan on Feb 2, 2011 8:05 PM EST reply actions  

I could live with that, even like it somewhat, if we could just get rid of Schremp.

by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 2, 2011 8:36 PM EST reply actions  

Schremp isn't terrible and is actually a quality depth center. Having him in bridge or on the 4th line would do wonders if one of our top 9 centers went down in the future for a period of time.

I don’t think he is a miracle worker, but his offensive prowess can’t be ignored when it’s clicking.

The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.

by OzzyFan on Feb 2, 2011 9:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I’d be ok with Schremp in the Bridge…and I’d be willing to take that gamble against his getting picked off the waiver wire….thought today about Tampa’s Goalie Mike Smith…picking him up only to place him back on waivers and send him to the bridge, experienced goalie down there…I think they have to do something for Bridgeport. The farm is so depopulated, I have to worry about development. Schremp would really help Rhett down there.

by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 3, 2011 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

There would be an easy way to measure "momentum-changing hits"

If you want to argue that Martin’s presence doesn’t help his line, but helps the NEXT line to take the ice, then there’s a way to try to figure this out: measure the team’s Corsi and zone starts etc. in the two minutes immediately following a shift where Martin has one of these hits. That would be one way to attempt to measure tangible impact of his play on his teammates after he goes to the bench.

To my knowledge the raw data would be there, but nobody’s tracking stuff like that, at least not publicly.

making you Google since 2004
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Non-hockey scribblings at nightflyblog

by mikb on Feb 3, 2011 10:12 AM EST reply actions  

Yes

This was my idea. It stemmed out of the “shutdown d man debate” where we decided it is very difficult to quatify their impact. If you want, I’ll email you some of the things I wanted to look at. It’s really raw, but it’s virtually impossible to quantify what some of these guys bring to the game when their job may not necessarily be to generate offense, but to “manage the game”. I think of it like rookie qbs or Trent Dilfer. Not sexy, but contributed to wins somehow.

"Gervais...he looks danger in the fist with his face!" JPinVA

by Keith Quinn on Feb 3, 2011 10:38 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

cool. I'll keep an eye peeled for the email

One thing I’d really love to see, that we may never have enough of a sample size on – how much of the effect comes from a “big hit” and how much comes from just getting your best line on the ice after the fourth line leaves? I mean, you may only have one or two hits per game, that’s not a lot of data. But it’s definitely worth investigating to see if there’s a way to measure it.

making you Google since 2004
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Non-hockey scribblings at nightflyblog

by mikb on Feb 3, 2011 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Good thinking!
how much of the effect comes from a "big hit" and how much comes from just getting your best line on the ice after the fourth line leaves

Another great point! If it is 4th line on 4th line and one gets control, and they get their 1st against other’s 4th for a short period? It would have to be momentum when both are off the ice for a comparability matchup.

Other things for momentum
Blocked Shot
Big Save
Big Kill
Fight
Timeout

"Gervais...he looks danger in the fist with his face!" JPinVA

by Keith Quinn on Feb 3, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

not sure about that...

I’m not so sure you can separate the two…case in point, tie game, Martin or Webb out there, lay down a really good solid hit, home-crowd roars and cheers, home team up on the bench, Martin or Webb skates around, lands another big hit on the same shift, crowd is into the game, crowd roaring, home team banging the boards with sticks…adren…pumping, the opposition is off their game if but for a moment…no clock stoppage, play keeps going, making a quick line change…who do you put out? Top line, try for a goal while opposition is busy trying to regroup, then get 1st line off suddenly drop to my third if 1st doesn’t score…in case opposition is going to check back or start a fight…anyway, I’m just saying I don’t think you can separate it..

by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 3, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

There is a reason the league is moving away from one-dimensional players who do nothing but hit, and that reason is that the ephemeral momentum changes due to a hit that you and others are describing in this thread rarely, if ever, actually occur.

And in most cases, Martin is affirmatively hurting the team by going for those types of hits anyone. Run out of position, charge a guy, take a penalty, opposition scores on PP. Rinse, repeat.

by AP77 on Feb 3, 2011 8:03 PM EST up reply actions  

have to disgree....the role evolved if anything...fighter, checker, agitator...sometime pk...whatever offense is gravy

First, Martin is not a one dimensional player, he is already an above average checker, and is a heavy-weight fighter, who has a little bit of offensive upside…not going to rehash what has already been said many times, Isles youth need guys like Martin around at least until they develop team toughness…Get Asham or a Chris Neil, Martin is in minors. Due to lack of depth, including his type of role, Martin has opportunity to learn in the show this year…it is true that picking the wrong hit can take you out of position….Gretzky was probably the best at reading a hit and getting out of the way, causing the checker to be out of position and a 2 on 1 or 3 on 2 the other way, it is why guys like Troy Murray and Brent Sutter, the two most successful centres at checkin Gretzky, didn’t really check Gretzky but rather “shadowed” him…Also, Webb was a guy who hit virtually every shift like a human pinball…playing every regular season game like it were playoffs…it shortened his career. Probably holds record for most bones broken by Isles player.

Players I see as job competition in same or similar NHL role as Martin would be, to name a few:
Min has Nystrom, Sutter in Carolina, Tootoo in Nashville…other plays off the cuff would be Asham and Cooke in Pitts, Cody Mcleod in Colorado, Chris Neil, Jarkko Ruutu in Ott, D.J. in Washington, Rick Rypien in Van, Toronto’s Colton Orr, Nate Thompson and Steve Downie in T Bay, etc., etc. Some guys have a little bit of offense, some are above average in the same peer group.

by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 4, 2011 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Don't forget the better players that play his role and are more important to their team because of it like:

Lucic in Boston, Clutterbuck in minn(without the fighting part), Brouwer of the Hawks, Ott/Neal in Dallas, Clarkson in NJ, and Backes in St.Louis. Sure I’m missing some too.

The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.

by OzzyFan on Feb 4, 2011 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Team toughness...

and having a guy who can fill the role and skate with the stars means the luxury of not having to use a roster spot on a goon

by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 4, 2011 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe Seth Ambroz..

Not sure how well he rates fighting NHL men though…Ambroz has been compared to Tonnelli, but he has slipped from early potential top 5 to bottom of the first round and on some scouting lists early second round.

by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 4, 2011 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks I looked at his profile.

If they get Larsson, I hope they go after both Zibanejad and Ambroz by trading up picks/ getting more picks at trade deadline (Martinek). Dunno much about McNeil.

If they don’t get Larsson, I’d draft Landeskog and gamble on him being the next Richards/Iginla whatever as long as he can keep up with JT and bring the PAIN!! If that happens, I hope they can find a way to draft Zibanejad AND a big nasty RH defenseman who can shoot and headman the puck. Dunno how that could happen tho…

"Seriously that's the last time you guys f#@%ing won?" -RSH (about beating the Penguins in '93)

by Bryan2112 on Feb 4, 2011 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

no problem....

that D would be Hamilton – to a tee literally, but can’t see it happening. He will go anywhere from 5 to 9. Totally agree with you. Read your post on other thread, read it twice. Really enjoyed it, almost precisely my own thoughts on the team’s needs…

by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 4, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

This site is quite the education for me...

…I’ve been refining my views month after month from reading all the intelligent and varied perspectives that the members of this site have to offer, yourself included. This site makes me a more informed Islander fan, and it’s more fun than ever when you get to commiserate, debate, and celebrate with a whole community of witty, good-natured diehards.

Thanks again Dom for starting this place.

"Seriously that's the last time you guys f#@%ing won?" -RSH (about beating the Penguins in '93)

by Bryan2112 on Feb 4, 2011 7:59 PM EST up reply actions  

So much to disagree with here. . . .

Every single player you named is substantially better than Martin.

He is not a heavy weight fighter. Maybe he will be someday, but right now, nope.

“Offensive upside”? Have we basically forgotten everything that Garik has extensively documented? Martin is terrible right now. One of the worst players in the entire league. Not only does he not have offensive upside, he is actually anti-offense — he’s so bad, you wonder if the team will ever be able to generate offense ever again.

I wouldn’t get too worked up about a 4th line player, really. But he’s horrendous right now. If folks think he has some kind of future, he should not be in the NHL right now because it’s beyond terrible.

by AP77 on Feb 4, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

the whole point is...

Martin is getting the opportunity b/c the Isles lack depth – anyone else in that role…the Isles can not afford to repeat what happened last year with star prospects such as JT being taken advantage of by more mature, bigger physical players. Probably same thing will happen with goalies now for a while. A kid is going to get an opportunity they otherwise wouldn’t.

by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 4, 2011 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

interesting idea...

good thinking there mikb…I wonder if there is an Isles blogger out there somewhere who would do it even for just say 10 games or so….might be interesting.

by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 3, 2011 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

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Is It Hockey Or Rugby? - The Scrum in The Crease

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Islanders Schedule

1979-80


May 24, 1980: Tonelli to Nystrom. At long last, the steady build of the New York Islanders from expansion doormat to surprise semifinalist to annual contender reaches the promised land: Buoyed by a late season trade for Butch Goring that gave the team the depth up the middle GM Bill Torrey had been seeking, the Islanders knock off the Philadelphia Flyers in six games.

The victory justified the faith in coach Al Arbour who guided them from their second season to their first Stanley Cup seven seasons later. The Islanders would not be the first expansion team to win the Stanley Cup, but they would be the only one capable of a dynasty.

1980-81


May 21, 1981: This time it was much easier. After falling to "only" 91 points in the 1979-80 season, the Islanders returned to their division title tradition, piling up 110 points -- a whole 13 points over second-place Philadelphia.

Between the quarterfinals (where they beat the upstart Oilers in six games) and the finals, the Islanders reeled off eight consecutive wins -- with a four-game sweep of archrival Rangers in between. As they defeated the Minnesota North Stars in five games for their second Cup, their goal difference in the final was a combined +10.

1981-82


May 16, 1982: Another year, another landslide title. The Islanders won the Patrick Division by a whopping 26 points over the second-place Rangers, and were seven points clear of their nearest competition for the President's Trophy, the still-not-quite-ripe Edmonton Oilers.

A first-round scare against the Pittsburgh Penguins turned in the Isles' favor thanks to John Tonelli's heroics, and a true dynasty was on its way: Past the Rangers in six games, then an eight-game sweep of the Quebec Nordiques and Vancouver Canucks to run away with the Stanley Cup.

1982-83


May 17, 1983: Not so fast, whipper-snappers. The Edmonton Oilers' steadily rising challenge for league supremacy took them all the way to the finals for the first time, where the New York Islanders summarily dispatched them in a four-game sweep. For the Islanders, the Dynasty was secured. For the Oilers, it was a powerful lesson in where talent ends and the demands of playoff hockey begin.

Four years, four Cups, 16 consecutive playoff series wins (a record that would grow to 19 until the rematch with the Oilers the following year). Mike Bossy scored 60 goals yet again, and Wayne Gretzky became acquainted with Billy Smith's crease.


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