A Look at the Islanders and the Draft
by BCISLEMAN on Jan 27, 2011 3:14 AM EST
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PrintOne characteristic of this draft that has become almost a commonplace is that the top three (or four if you include Landeskog) prospects are so close in talent that a team can draft according to need as opposed to slavishly picking the best player available.
Assuming that the Islander scouting staff share this conventional wisdom, how should Garth Snow assess the team's needs? Which position is the priority?
The two basic considerations, as I see it, are that the Islanders need an injection of talent on defense and that no one has yet emerged as a clear candidate for second line center. To my mind, this pushes Gabriel Landeskog out of the picture. It is a choice between Adam Larsson and either Sean Couturier or Ryan Nugent-Hopkins.
On defense, Mark Eaton, Mike Mottau, Jack Hillen, and Milan Jurcina, or any defensemen the Islanders might sign as a free agent in the near future, are really depth defensemen on a good defensive team. Calvin De Haan and Ty Wishart are both likely a season away from serious ice time. It is probably safer to assume that they would be the third pairing going forward.
That leaves Mark Streit, Andy MacDonald, and Travis Hamonic to fill out the top two pairings. And that leaves the Islanders one top four short.
Adam Larsson would be the perfect choice to fill that slot. He would certainly be the most talented blueliner to join the orange and blue since Bowtie Bill stepped up to the podium at Montreal's Mount Royal Hotel on May 15, 1973. And he and Hamonic are both right handed shots to Streit's and MacDonald's left handed shots. What could be better?
The problem at center is that the Islanders have yet to identify a clear cut choice for the all-important position of second line center. Rob Schremp has his defenders on this blog and he is not a bad player. It is, however, hard to imagine anyone seriously suggesting that Schremp could be a second line center on a contending team.
That leaves Josh Bailey, Anders Lee, and Brock Nelson. Lee and Nelson are probably both at least two years away. Josh is the real focus here. He has not yet emerged as the top two center he was drafted to be. Will he ever? How long will it take?
Garth would probably be wise to draft Larsson if he has the choice. He has Josh and Lee and Nelson both seem promising. This summer he can and probably should sign a veteran free agent center. That will take the pressure off Josh and give Lee and Nelson time to develop. On the other hand, Garth will probably never again be in a position to draft a defenseman as talented as Larsson again. If Larsson is still on the board when Garth picks, it has to be him. If not, it will be a choice between the two way center Couturier and the slick playmaking center Nugent-Hopkins.
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Schremp
yeah I really like this guy but he hasn’t been getting on the score sheet lately. We have too many stearky players and need more guys who put something up every night. Bailey is starting to worry me too, he seems to play hard and at times gets to pucks but not putting enough home.
I think we may have missed not taking Cam Fowler, but we will have to wait and see Nino play next season.
Any task BIG or small, Do it well or not at all
Frans
with KO and Grabs is turning into a very formidable 2nd line BC, granted, it’s a new-ish line, but it is showing promise… and garth may see him as the #2 C for a while… thoughts?
NYI Hockey! We'll get that winless month yet!
stop gap measure
On a good team, Frans is what he is…a very good third line center. Plugging him into that hole may work for the short term…like this year. If they want to contend next year, they probably need to sign a FA until Josh or one of the other two can do it. Assuming Garth drafts Larsson, I would like him to move his second rounder up with whatever assets he has including the Montreal picks and the third rounder and get Mika Zibanejad, a terrific prospect in the SEL. He has the makings of a star and Garth can probably grab him around 20th overall. Would probably make Larsson feel better about coming to the Island to see Garth make a move like that to get a talented countryman as well—extra added bonus.
How I see our lines panning out next year...
Moulson JT KO
Grabner Frans/Free Agent Center Nino
Comeau Bailey PAP
Martin Konopka BP tryout spot
Streit Larsson
AMac Hamonic
Jucina Eaton
Mottau
I think
Signed,
Why? Frans is as good a shutdown center as almost anyone in the league, and all great teams need a solid shutdown line(especially a solid shutdown center).
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
well, call me old fashioned but
I am used to the top two lines being SCORING lines and the third line being the shutdown line.
Potato or Potatoe, Nielsen can be called a 3rd or 2nd line center, but is still a needed player on a contending team.
Just a misunderstanding of terminology here.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
didn't sat he wasn't needed
but on a team that is a contender, he isn’t a center on a scoring line is all.
Yep, exactly misunderstanding of definitions.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
of course, in a different role with scoring wingers, who knows?
Just think that Garth drafted Josh to be a playmaking center and it is time that he went whole hog and made him one.
I hope so.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
Really?
He’s better than what the Caps run out as second line centers, and I’d have to go ahead and consider them a contender.
Talent is talent, and differentiating between second/third scoring/checking centers is somewhat meaningless.
The question to me is do they have more faith in Schremp and Bailey as centers, or Parenteau and Comeau as wings. Additionally, do you have more faith in the non-NHL guys at center or wing?
IMO there are zero potential All Star dmen in the system. So I’d roll the dice that Larsson could be that. After that, I feel better about Bailey than any of the other three players in general, so I’d probably be looking wing, not center.
"All star d-men"
I agree with drafting larsson, he’d be a dream to draft and replace streit with. But the terminology of not having an all-star d-man is a very select few, 12 D-men in the entire league are only considered all-stars. All star caliber is meh based on definition, but more then half the teams in the nhl don’t have all-star d-men. I’d go more with saying that the isles have no true #1 d-men in the system, since that is a more reasonable assertion. Anyway, I’m just pitter pattering over terminology so no biggie.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
who is the Caps second line center?
Isles have good wingers but nobody as dominant as Ovi and Semin. They need a superior playmaker on the second line. Hopefully that will be Josh in a year or two. If Garth is confident of that, he may not draft a center. But what reason has Josh given him to be confident?
Lately they’ve been playing Mathieu Perreault there.
Part of my problem with taking a center is you hope that some kid can make a fire rubbing two sticks together with our wings on the second line. Which assumes he’s going to be significantly better than Josh Bailey, who hasn’t been able to do that.
your top two centers are critical positions
I hope that Josh will not be a bust, but you have to allow for the possibility that he will be and you cannot assume that Nelson and Lee will be able to step into that role. Getting a likely guy with the second pick is a safe bet. If Josh really starts to tear it up, you can still develop the player and if there is no roster spot for him when he is ready, you can trade him for a player you do need.
That’s definitely a fair point. The Isles don’t seem to have any A-level players outside of Tavares (potentially) to be honest. But they do seem to have boatloads of B-level guys. So it probably does make sense to put together as many lines on that level as possible. It’s worked for Buffalo pretty well the last 10 years or so.
I'd put it a little differently
The Islanders have a lot of B level talent that may develop into A level. Even Tavares is not quite there yet. Moulson is what he is and is probably a B+, Streit an A-. Konopka is a B+ for what he is as is Gillies. The rest are works in progress.
I guess I’m comparing them to the rest of the league, not how much of their individual potential they have achieved. So when I say we have a lot of B levels, I mean guys who are C-level or worse right now compared to the rest of the league and could be B/B+ types, but that is their ceiling.
I'm less worried about Bailey
He’s shown the talent. As he matures he will get more consistent in the offensive zone. He’s also caught in the Comeau Saga (with RSH’s Saga added). It seems that he is being brought down by his line and situation. He definitely needs to shoot more but the rest of his game is there even when the numbers aren’t. I would like to see him center Grabner and Nino next season. We’ve seen him make some outstanding neutral zone passes to send Grabner in when they’ve been on the ice together. Add a tough guy getting to the net like Nino and that line could work. That’s why Comeau worked at the beginning of the season…the guy actually got to the net where Bailey could use his skills to get him the puck. Bailey has nothing to work with when we have Ballarina Blake.
Larsson is on top of my list by a mile right now. We really don’t get enough goals from our D-Men and our D is small by league standards. If he’s available I’d grab him in a second. If he’s gone and we are, say, 3rd I might even trade down two spots and draft Hamilton. We need a big D man with a shot. We need some more scoring from the wing too. I like what PAP has brought but he shouldn’t be 1st line. JT needs a true top winger to reach his potential. JT makes at least 3 passes a game out in to the slot where a guy should be and everyone is near the boards. If we don’t draft someone then we really need to try and bring someone in for his wing. I wouldn’t write off drafting Landeskog.
If it came down to choosing between RNH & Couturier I might lean to Couturier. A two-way guy might serve us better. If we had Bailey Couturier Nino as a second line I wouldn’t complain (though that’s a REALLY young line).
You mean to tell me shooting the puck from 70 feet out doesn't earn us extra goals?
I am very hopeful about Bailey as well
but Garth can’t afford to put his eggs all in one basket. That is why we have Lee and Nelson, I am sure. As I noted above to Bob, I also think Garth should move up and get a good center prospect this year as well. Mika Zibanejad is a Swedish prospect who is supposed to be the real thing.
Larsson and passion
I just watched on my dvr the WJC Russia-Sweden game. Larsson had a goal and 2 assists and, according to the announcers, played his strongest game of the tourney. He was poised, almost always in position, made crisp breakout passes, joined the rush when needed, and got more and more ice time as the game went along (coach realized how well he was playing.) Excellent, dominant performance.
That being said, I offer a counterpoint. Is he more important to the team than a possible Martin St. Louis-like player (Nugent-Hopkins)? Or a Mike Richards-type complete forward (Landeskog)? I’m not sure, but what possibly biases me against drafting Larsson is his energy and passion. I didn’t see much of it in that game. Maybe that’s a PLUS since he’s so calm and cool for a teenager? Maybe it’s cuz he moves his big frame around so effortlessly? I don’t know what to make of it, but what I do know is the two main things I look for in a player are talent and passion. Nugent-Hopkins clearly has both, but maybe not the size. Landeskog is average size, good-to-great talent but from limited data (improved so much from last year but got hurt), and passion-wise has the heart of a lion. Larsson has the size and the talent, but I question his passion.
I know it’s my bias, but I don’t gravitate towards that calm, cool, collective, traditional European side of hockey. When I watched Larsson, I didn’t see the fiery passion of The Captain. I hope I’m wrong.
"Seriously that's the last time you guys f#@%ing won?" -RSH (about beating the Penguins in '93)
Lidstrom a pretty good captain?
I read something about the Swedes making great defensemen because they are relatively cool and unflappable and you need that to be really good at defense. Now I know that Denis was different that way, but I don’t think that Larsson lacks for heart and desire at all. He’ll be fine.
forward
I just think it is time for D
Nino last season
JT
Bailey
Any task BIG or small, Do it well or not at all
by Rickfansince76 on Jan 27, 2011 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
and because of that and the fact that defensive prospects take longer to develop
our needs on defense are greater.
Good breakdown.
Except landeskog is above average size being 6’1’’ 207lbs at 18yrs old.
And I still don’t understand the MSL comparison with RNH. MSL was a lot better/more dominant of a goalscorer in his u-18yrs then RNH, and because of that, I never see RNH being anything more then a solid 15-20goal playmaking forward(and MSL is a 30gl repeat guy). I can see some similarities, but I see RNH a lot more like a tim connolly then an MSL. In fact, I see almost identical scouting reports when I think of the 2 of them(connolly and RNH). Nothing wrong with that though. Connolly is a 15-20goal/60-70pts center. Just saying MSL is on a whole nother level then RNH.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
MSL MIGHT be on a whole other level
By all accounts, RNH’s talents are on the highest level…and there may be reasons why their production differed. I haven’t compared their respective junior squads and competition. That could be a factor. Also offense may have been more prevalent in juniors then as it was in the NHL at the time. Could be a lot of reasons for that. RNH is a highly skilled player who would make the Islander offense much more potent. But is he the best choice for the Isles? Not, IMHO, if Larsson is on the board.
highest level of what?
Passing/playmaking? maybe. Speed? maybe. Strength? no. Goalscoring? No way. His offensive goals are an inexcusable stat. Great goalscorers score no matter what. Look at JT. 24goals in a rookie season at 18yrs old with no playmakers on his line. Look at Grabner, 36goals in his 1st non-shortened whl season + 39goals in a 25game shortened whl season. That is a goalscorer. Look at nino, 36goals in his rookie whl season, and on the verge of ~45goals in his 2nd whl season. That is a goalscorer. RNH, rookie season, 24goal season + this year, barely on the verge of a 22goal season in the whl. The top goalscorers in that league put up 35-40goals+/season, and he isn’t even close to them. He still has the assists up as expected, but he is no goalscorer. How do you expect a guy who can barely score 20-25goals in the whl to be a real 30 goalscoring threat in the nhl? It’s not plausible. Yes, he has highend skating skills. Yes, he has highend playmaking/passing skills. BUT, he is not close to a goalscorer one would hope for. He is just not an MSL talent, and naming him so is wrong. MSL would have been putting up 40goal seasons in that league, something RNH hasn’t got close to. He is a lot closer to a 15-20goal-60-70pts/playmaking 1st center ala connolly then he is to a MSL. MSL is the highest tier you can go, and he isn’t on that level or he would unquestionably be the #1 consensus pick on every board, which he is not. We wouldn’t be having a discussion at all if he was that high of a talent player.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
Keep in mind that RNH is a center and that MSL is a wing. All else equal, you’d expect the wing to score more goals.
But, yeah, I would put RNH at the bottom of the top 4.
True.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
"True, but I doubt he is a 30goal talent"
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
didn;t he play wing in that prospects game?
he looked good, but he was the media darling too, they were drooling over him making him seem better, player of the game should have been the first goalie, he was a stud in that game
NYI Hockey! We'll get that winless month yet!
most folks are scared off by his size
That may be keeping him from the top spot. And he was on top of the list two years ago, shared the top with Larsson last year. Should add that we have a few goal scorers now and could probably use an elite playmaker which he projects to be.
That's fair, but I just don't see him as a goalscorer close to the light of landeskog or grabner or niederreiter. If you want to call him an elite playmaker fine, but he is no st.louis and fits the bill to more of a connolly.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
Where did landeskog go? Shouldn't he be on the poll?
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
read my intro
Landeskog is great, but you cannot draft everybody and the Isles have more pressing needs.
So you'd be really surprised if the drafted Landeskog? I know the whole needs thing, but if they draft the best player possible, and larsson is off the boards, nobody has been more dominant this year in juniors then GL,
so I could easily see us getting him.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
I thought they needed Big Victor in 2009
and I was pleasantly surprised when they drafted Nino. Thought Kulikoff would have been better than De Haan and Merrill would have been better than Nelson. I will be surprised if I am not surprised. Just saying what I think Garth SHOULD do…but he’s the boss daddy.
Only problem I have with drafting RNH is that he is likely about 2yrs away after being drafted from being nhl ready because his size. Do we really want to go through that wait for a top 3 draft pick?
Other then that, I’m fine with any of the other 3 larsson, landeskog, or couturier.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
hard to say
I thought that about Skinner and look at him now. RNH might do the same or he might need a year or two. Teams will be taking a close look at the Combine for sure. Be HUGE for him and Couturier who has had a substandard year due to a mono bout.
RNH is listed at 6' 165lbs. Skinner right now is listed at 5'10/11'' 193lbs on the hurricanes site.
Big difference. And skinner wasn’t drafted close to what RNH is at. Most places I see Skinner drafted at 5’10’’ 185lbs/187lbs. Not RNH territory at all. RNH is going to be one of the lightest top 10 draft picks to be drafted in a long long time.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
have seen RNH listed at 170 and he will surely be heavier than that at the Combine and even more next Fall
and he is taller—6’1" I think. He is also likely more skilled than Skinner. He will be a star for somebody…maybe even next season.
This year might be too early for a guy his size, but definitely next season if he is 170lbs right now.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
I would put it at 50 / 50, 40 / 60
If Boston selected him, he surely would not. Probably not Devils either, Isles, OTT, EDM, who knows?
I can agree with that.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
Larrson
Is the choice I think if we can get him. I don’t think Wishart is going to be more than solid and same with De Haan. I think Hamonic is going to be the real deal and a steal of a second rounder and with Larrson we may just have two future all star defenseman. We have decent fowards and we still have prospects coming up in the system plus later picks. I think we really need defense as our system seems to be pretty weak there.
Constantly building for the future.
Larrson or Landeskog
I think Larrson goes #1 overall. If the Isles don’t have that pick, I like Landeskog over the rest of the forward options. The Isles don’t really have any players like him. Nino would be the closest and I like Landeskog more. Even if they both worked out, having two competent power forward-ish guys would be great.
It would be great
but I think that they need a second line center more than another PF. We already have KO and BC and BN and AL are also both PF types. If I was totally confident about the team’s options for second line C, I would say go get Landeskog. I am not. Also ESPN Insider is one dissenting voice in terms of Landeskog belonging in the top three.
If ESPN is agin’ it, I’m fer it. Those idiots are wrong about everything.
I think that Landeskog has done more with less supporting talent than the rest of the forward options. Brock Nelson and AL are not Landeskog-level talents, and BC — don’t even get me started on that clown. Landeskog looks a lot like Forsberg, which is very difficult to ignore.
I agree. Landeskog has stood out more then any other forward prospect this year. He took his game to another level and all the other top prospects didn't.
The only other person questionable with him right now would be Larsson because RNH isn’t lighting up the lamp a lot, and Couturier had a mono case that hurt his overall production and numbers(likely).
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
What has spurred the Landeskog surge as much as anything is that he may be NHL-ready and some of the others may not be
What really got me thinking was a Leaf blogger who said he was overrated. He was speculating that Landeskog might be Boston’s pick and naturally he had an ulterior motive. So when he said that their third rounder this summer McKegg had better stats, I thought he was blowing smoke. He’s not. McKegg has 16 more points. Now granted Landeskog has been injured and he probably brings other qualities that McKegg doesn’t, but still. Just not sure Landeskog belongs with the other three talent wise.
I wouldn't trust leaf bloggers, they already have Tavares signed to a 15yr deal in a year and a half. lol
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
I wouldn't either
but it’s hard to argue with numbers. If a third round pick is 15 points ahead of a guy, you have to question if he is top five material, much less top three.
Since landeskog has missed 13 of the 45gms, or more then 1/4 of the gms played so far this year, I wouldn't worry about stat comparisons at all.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
when he's 15 points behind a third round pick, I would
Landeskog 32 GP 25-20-45 1.4 PPG
McKegg 45 GP 31-30-61 1.36 PPG
Even allowing for the injury, they are very close in production. When a third round pick is that close to a guy you are thinking of taking with a top three pick, you have to start to wonder if the guy is overhyped.
This is a joke, right?
Ryan Johansen ppg: 1.17
Nino ppg: 1.12
Connolly: 1.25
OMG, ALL WERE HORRIBLE PICKS BECAUSE BELOW MCKEGG’s PPG THIS SEASON!!!!!!!!
And also all below Landeskog.
Meant to add
Looks like McKegg is having a very nice season. Good for him. Maybe he will turn out to be a steal on the 3rd round. If he put those numbers up last season, he would have been a first round pick.
But it simply does not follow — at all — that Landeskog should be dinged because he is only somewhat ahead of a pick from last season.
Wait
So this McKegg guy was already a 3rd-round pick? So he’s a year further along in his development?
Lighthouse Hockey: "Are you fist-f#$%ing me?!" --P.A. Parenteau
makes perfect sense
He’s only one year behind. He may be worth a top ten pick, but I do not see him as a top three pick. He has been overhyped.
So Johansen, Nino, Connolly — all similarly over-hyped because they are behind third round picks this season despite being the same age?
were they top three picks?
Top three in any draft should be VERY special players right now. Not saying Landeskog is no good. Just that he may not rate a top three pick. If you think my McKegg comparison is unfair, fine. But here is what Gare Joyce of ESPN says and I think he makes some fair points:
“If you go on projections, Landeskog suffers by comparison, due to his low ceiling. Couturier has first-line franchise center upside; RN-H likewise, though more as shifty playmaker. Larsson has All-Star upside, as he is ahead of Drew Doughty and Victor Hedman at the same stage. Landeskog has first-line upside. Will he score enough to merit first All-star status? No. That’s not a criticism, just a reality. He would in fact have to put up bigger numbers than he has in junior and do it at a higher level — something that rarely happens.
Yes, Landeskog’s stock has surged this year, but he is like Tyler Seguin — a kid who came from off the pace, a candidate for the top 10 who enjoyed a breakthrough and established a new level of play. Couturier, RN-H and Larsson are pieces that you build around, while Landeskog would play in support of a center. The latter doesn’t sound like a No. 1 overall pick."
http://insider.espn.go.com/nhl/blog?name=nhl_draft&id=6022533
If there is an argument for picking Landeskog, other than a really cool name, it is this: he has something of Trots in him. He’ll never be the player Trots was, but that’s hardly a knock. He seems to have what Peter McNabb describes Trots having in the video below between 1:29 and 1:52. You know when you play against him, it is going to be a long, tough struggle from opening faceoff to final buzzer. Given the way this team seems to struggle in the first period, that would be an important contribution:
That video is incredible.
I’m always looking for the next-closest thing to Bryan Trottier…Mike Richards reminds me of him. Sucks that we can’t have both Larsson and Landeskog…despite your aforementioned plan that is ;-)
"Seriously that's the last time you guys f#@%ing won?" -RSH (about beating the Penguins in '93)
even I knew it was a longshot
One of the problems of the Milbury era is that there are so few worthwhile assets to use when you want to make a move like that.
You could always trade 2012's 1st rd pick in a package
If 2012 draft is the Year of the Defensman, and we draft Larsson with the 1st overall pick, and if Landeskog is still available when Boston’s Toronto pick comes to the podium, I say trade our 2012 1st rnd pick along with a Blake Comeau for Boston’s Toronto pick and we draft Landeskog…sigh enough daydreaming
"Seriously that's the last time you guys f#@%ing won?" -RSH (about beating the Penguins in '93)
might be Boston's last chance to draft that early for some time
hard to imagine them trading it away.
No one is saying Landeskog is going to be a 40goal scorer like JT.
Does landeskog have legit 30goal scoring talent? Yes. Does landeskog have a solid all around game? Yes. Does Landeskog play with fire? Yes. Does landeskog sound like a protypical power forward? Yes. It’s way too early to judge. Does landeskog have the tools to be a future captain? Yes.
What is your definition of superstar? Because imo, RNH, Couturier, Landeskog, and Larsson all have the raw talent and potential to do so. And no one is ahead of anyone in that stature, because none of them have stepped on nhl ice yet. Do you really trust an nhl analysts word on this? Has he seen all of them play in person? Does he even know their games? Can he even name the team’s they play for without looking at a stat sheet? I’ve heard “hockey analysts” say a number of players pre-draft would be no brainers or superstars or great and turned into big flops. And based on that and more, I’d rather based my own guesses and go off an “expert’s” guess.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
Joyce focuses on the draft and prospects
I feel sure that he knows whereof he speaks…especially since it follows with what others say. Landeskog probably has more heart and fire than the other three and is probably more of a leader. they, however, have more talent and play more critical positions. His heart, fire, and leadership are probably the main thing separating him from Brandon Saad and Tyler Biggs who are similar to him and will likely go between 6 and 12 overall.
Gonna have to disagree with you there.
I think Landeskog has the game to be a repeat 30goal scorer, size of a dominant power forward, sound 2-way game, drives the net, he fights, blocks shots, hits hard and often, loves physicality, “will do anything to win”, and the heart/leadership to be a captain. And that combo in itself is enough for him to be considered a high impact player. The names GL is being throw out with in comparison are salivating: Iginla, Lucic, Forsberg, Alfredsson. And I really can see Landeskog becoming a better defensive lucic. Come on, to say Landeskog doesn’t have the potential to be a high impact and important team player at this stage with his all around game is not comprehensible, that analyst is an idiot for making that statement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01XymQDXh04
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
the analyst is spot on
Players rarely exceed their junior numbers at the NHL level. Landeskog has yet to get 30 goals in junior hockey and you have him doing it consistently at the NHL level. That’s more than a little over the top. Not saying it cannot happen, but it rarely does and you certainly cannot assume that it will.
Have not heard anyone else compare Landeskog to either Lucic or Alfredsson and only AP77 has compared him to Forsberg—a comparison I thought and still think wildly over the top. But since you brought up Lucic, he has never scored 30 goals in a season and only once scored 20. He did have one 30 goal campaign in junior and that fits the pattern. Players’ production goes down in the NHL because defensemen are tougher and goalies are better.
Landeskog does bring a lot of important qualities to his game. He just is a notch below the other three in talent.
Really?
Landeskog before his injury was on his way to having an over 50goal scoring ohl season. Is that enough for him to have a shot at becoming a repeat 20-30goal player? Hell yes. Don’t complain about him not putting it up in juniors, because with the way he was rolling this season, he could have ended up near 60goals in juniors. more then enough to predict him as a possible future 20-30goal scorer. So that’s that. Don’t say he doesn’t have the skills all because he didn’t score 30goals in a little under half a season, he scored 25.
Lucic. The guy who had a full-season equivalent 19goal season at 19yrs old? And Landeskog had a lot more of a goalscorer’s game then Lucic has. Lucic was a 2nd round pick for a reason, and that reason is that not many believed he was high-end talent with high-end tools, something landeskog is predicted to have by some. Plus Lucic is on the verge of a 35goal season at 22yrs old. Very few players peak at 20/21yrs old, and Lucic is an example of that. Not saying he will be a repeat 30goal guy, but he showed this year he could very well be a 25goal player with his skill set.
You just can’t predict landeskog a notch below the other top forwards. He is the #1 forward on some “analysts” boards, and over a handful of people here think he is the top forward in the draft.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
you keep saying these players are on the verge of things they haven't done yet
It is FAR more reasonable to project him as not being a 30 goal a year guy then as being one. He has NEVER hit 30 goals in his career at any level and his NHL production is likely to be less. You are assuming facts not in evidence. 25 goals a year for him might be realistic, but you did lead your earlier post by saying that he would be a repeat 30 goal scorer. Maybe he will, but you cannot assume that.
I do think that it is fair to see Landeskog as a notch below the other two in his skill set. He makes himself more attractive because of other aspects of his game. That’s fine, but you have to see him for what he is. His coach compared him to Mike Richards as to the type of player he is. Will he match Richards’s production? He might. I suspect that would be his ceiling and I also suspect that the other two have higher ceilings…but he does bring other things that make him appealing.
Guess we will have to agree to disagree.
I think Landeskog is on par with the other top 3 forwards all around or maybe even better when you talk the whole package. And I think comparing landeskog to a better defensively/better hands Lucic or a bigger/shoot 1st mike richards is the right choices for comparison.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
We will
I see his talent level as just a notch or so below the others AND the others fill vital positions that a rebuilding team focuses on first. His main attraction over Brandon Saad or Tyler Biggs is his leadership. This could certainly be valuable on a team that routinely mails it in every first period and thus digs a huge hole every game.
For Garth to select Landeskog, Larsson would need to be off the board and he would have to be completely satisfied that Josh would be up to taking over at 2nd center.
Ha
I find this amusing in a light-hearted way because, BC, with all due respect — you’re the absolute king of wildly over the top estimations made by assuming things with no evidentiary support. (Bailey = HOF anyone?)
Even putting that aside, let’s look at it like this:
RNH ppg this season: 1.36
GL ppg this season: 1.4
Now, I can see someone making an argument that Couturier should be ahead of GL because of production. Fine. But you can’t make that argument about RNH. GL has superior numbers, size, and a complete game.
It’s also odd that you’ve latched on this one ESPN “analyst” as conclusive evidence. Central Scouting, of course, has GL as #1.
the analyst' argument and I do agree with it
also noted that a factor was that RNH and Couturier played more critical positions…as did Larsson. These are the positions that a rebuilding team is going to be more anxious to fill and thus make them more likely to be a #1 pick. And Bailey has a future with this organization while your favorite center does not.
My favorite center on the Islanders is JT. I certainly hope he has a future with the team.
Assuming you’re referring to RSH, it may be the case that he is on his way out and that Bailey is not. But if that is in fact the case, it’s got nothing to do with their respective performance on the ice, which has always been my point.
in a sense, actually, it has
For him to win a spot, given that he is older and more developed…AND Josh is the guy Garth drafted to be a top two center while RSH is just the guy he stumbled across on waivers…for him to win the spot, he had to convincingly outperform Josh and he certainly has not. It is possible to look at Josh and see somebody who may develop into a special player. RSH really looks like a marginal NHLer or a really good AHLer.
No
This is our fundamental disagreement.
I don’t give a rat’s ass whether Bailey is the “guy” that Snow drafted him to be. And I certainly don’t care in the slightest whether RSH was picked up on waivers. So was Grabner. OMG, GET RID OF GRABNER
No, I care about results. And, to date, Bailey has done precisely nothing to show that he is superior to RSH on the ice.
Again, you are wrapped on in this meta-story where Snow has some master plan and Bailey is a part of it, so no matter how he actually performs, he must always be a part of your narrative.
In my view, that’s wrong. Draft picks come and go. Some work out, so don’t. This is the inevitable fact. You have to adjust your thinking. If you don’t, you’re destined to say things like: “RSH really looks like a marginal NHLer or a really good AHLer.”
I will say it one more time: identical performance between Bailey and RSH. Anything you say about RSH can apply equally to Bailey.
Anything else that you want to wholly speculate on is, as you put it, assuming facts without evidence.
Bailey was Garth's first first rounder
He picked him over someone who has been consistently one of the top five prospects in the NHL ever since. He picked him to be a top two center. By contrast, RSH was just a chance waiver pickup.
A top ten pick for a developing team is a very important building block. That doesn’t mean that you cannot get important pieces like Grabner and Moulson by waiver and free agency.
It does mean, however, that the latter have to prove themselves and are not as likely to be given mulligans by management. They are not the guys that the team has invested months and maybe years in. Do you think Moulson would be on the roster now if his performance had been comparable to Josh’s his rookie year? Or Grabner?
Garth drafted Bailey with the idea that he would be a top playmaking center for one of the two top lines. To date, he has not developed into one, but he is only in his third year.
I’m destined to say RSH is a marginal NHLer and a more confirmed AHLer because that is what he has shown himself to be after a much longer developmental period than Josh. You can believe what you want. At season’s end, it’s likely that one of the two will be gone and I have no doubt whatever as to who that will be.
Sigh
You’re basically admitting my point though.
RSH has not had a “much longer developmental period” than Bailey. In fact, Bailey has played more than twice the number of games in the NHL. True, RSH has some time in the AHL. Fine. But basically they’re producing in the same fashion right now with comparable development time post-juniors.
What you can’t say is that Bailey is a more important cog simply because he was drafted in the top ten by Snow. That is definitional circular reasoning.
Meant to add
If it comes down to Bailey or RSH, I similarly have no doubt that RSH will be the odd man out.
But as I said before, that won’t be because of anything that Bailey has proven on the ice or otherwise. It will at least partly because of precisely the sort of wrong-headed reasoning on the part of the Islanders that you described above.
Personally, I think the verdict is definitely still out on both of them. But I would not cast aside RSH so lightly simply because Bailey was drafted by Snow. There is absolutely no evidence to date that Bailey will be a better player than RSH. It’s all just aspirational thinking.
RSH has been in AHL h__l because he hasn't earned his way out
He has had those extra years to develop and it hasn’t discovered anything in him.
There are two reasons RSH will be the odd man out. First, it is perfectly logical for a team to give preference to its own draft picks as they are the guys it has put months if not years into scouting, selecting, and developing.
Second, by this point in RSH’s career, it is pretty obvious that what you see is what you get. To have a player of his lack of physicality on the fourth line speaks volumes about where he is headed. Josh stays simply because there is legit reason to hope that he will develop into something more.
No point in continuing this
Again, you keep dancing around the issue — which is same exact performance to date by RSH and JB. Except that RSH has (until very recently) been playing center and Bailey couldn’t even muster that at the NHL level.
You may want to hope and think that Bailey develops into more. We all do. But there are no reasons right now to think that he will except that he’s a couple of years younger than RSH (albeit with substantially more games at the NHL level where he has repeatedly failed to produce).
not dancing at all
when you have two players and one is older and picked up off the waiver wire after spending more than enough time in the AHL to develop into a good NHL player and the other is a player who is several years younger, never had the extra time in junior or the AHL to develop, has had a lot of time invested in him by the organization, etc…it stands to reason that the older player is going to have to show himself clearly better to win out over the younger one.
Josh has not had the chance to develop that RSH has had. He has shown flashes of being much better and I am sure that Garth will give him every chance to prove that he is something more before he gives up on him. It’s only logical.
Sigh
Nevermind the fact that Bailey has had plenty of time in the NHL itself to refine his game and has not done so.
This is my last post on the matter.
not as much as RSH
My point again is that there is reason to hope Josh will improve. There really isn’t any with RSH.
Exactly. He's one of the older players in the league dominating younger teenagers for the most part.
The comparison isn’t close to fair, even if when you run the numbers landeskog comes out ahead in ppg and goals/gm. Landeskog is better and a year younger/less developped too, so this whole debate is rediculous. You can’t compare players like that. Rob schremp after he was drafted threw up a tavares-like 57goals/145pts season in the same league, but that doesn’t close to mean that schremp is a tavares-level talent or that he was deserving to be a top 5 pick or that other 1st round picks that had lower stats that year then him were worse. Example, the same year schremp threw up 57/145, Jordan Staal was the #2 pick and threw up a 28/68 season, he panned out well. Another example, 18th pick Chris Stewart of that year had a 37/87 season and he’s doing great in the nhl too. You can’t compare players in juniors that aren’t in the same age/draft, it’s not close to reasonable as I’ve showed above.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
Forsberg? that's a stretch
No one has put him in that territory. His coach compared him to Richards on Philly and even that would have to be proven. Not convinced he is a better talent than AL. Threw BC—who has his moments—in with the others to illustrate the point that we don’t really have this overwhelming need for PF types. A top defender or a second line center are more needful IMHO.
The type of game he plays is identical to Forsberg’s style. Whether he is successful at it at the NHL level is of course entirely unknown. He probably won’t be because very few are. I’m just comparing playing styles here. Every other type of comparison with current/past players is a waste of time imo.
Simply put, Lee has never competed at the highest level (major junior) and dominated the way Landeskog has. Since he hasn’t, he cannot be considered an equivalent talent unless and until he succeed at the NHL level.
A top defender would be nice. But after Larsson, the next two (Murphy, Hamilton) have considerable question marks. And you can’t draft someone and say: “This guy will be our #2 center.” Look how great that worked out with Bailey.
Some folks were saying Robert Nilsson had hands like Foppa
and then they decided to pick him over Parise. I think scouts try to help folks who cannot see a prospect conceptualize as to the kind of player they expect him to be and no one has made the Foppa comparison that I am aware of.
Lee has dominated wherever he has gone and, with the way US college players have performed at the WJCs, I wouldn’t assume that the level of play there is THAT much inferior.
The idea isn’t to draft someone and anoint him. The idea is that second line center and top pairing defense are critical slots and I would rather have too much talent at critical slots than too little. If I am drafting Larsson, I want to move up the second pick to get a likely talent at C. If I am drafting Couturier or RNH, I am again moving up that next pick for a defender.
Well, I am making the comparison right now. Compare his style and then tell me how it is not very similar (helps that he is also Swedish, of course). Landeskog might be more of a goal scorer than a playmaker though.
The question is what to do if they Isles cannot pick Larrson with their first pick. The answer is take a forward. And I would take the best one available, who I think is Landeskog.
I like that reasoning, and that's why I though landeskog should have been on the poll.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
Look up McKegg's numbers and compare them with Landeskog's
McKegg was picked in the third round. I really question whether Landeskog should be in this mix.
And Landeskog has missed more then 1/4th the season, forget numbers. Plus Landeskog is a top-tier talent and a whole year younger then McKegg, so that comparison is rediculous in more way then one.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
he is hyped as a top tier talent
And he is only one year behind. He ought to have much better numbers than a third round pick. He doesn’t.
Exactly, Nino wasn't even dominating as much as Landeskog is this year, and Nino was #5 overall last year.
Also, read my reply above to your other post.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
Seriously
Now you’re concerned about numbers after you’ve dismissed them in various other conversations?
As Ozzy pointed out, Landeskog has been injured and is younger than McKegg. By your logic, DeHaan was a horrible pick (which he may well have been, but I’m sure you don’t think so) because he is far behind some of the top d-man prospects for this draft.
Never dismissed numbers
Even allowing for the injury, Landeskog’s production is barely comparable to McKegg, a third round pick. Spin it anyway you want, it suggests that he may have been overhyped. And, for the record, I wanted Kulikoff with the #12.
Major Junior vs. NCAA
with the way US college players have performed at the WJCs, I wouldn’t assume that the level of play there is THAT much inferior.
In fact, you can argue that it’s better — not inferior. Junior teams might be deeper in high-end talent, but a big body doing well in NCAA (against 18/19-23 year-olds) is more impressive than a big body doing well in juniors, where he’s mopping up on a lot of underdeveloped teenage bodies.
It’s always a tough comparison and is probably evolving with the poaching between leagues, but when you’re looking at scoring numbers, Behind The Net’s league equivalency puts the NCAA above juniors.
Lighthouse Hockey: "Are you fist-f#$%ing me?!" --P.A. Parenteau
It's too bad Anders wasn't on the WJC roster
then he might have gotten some of the credit he deserves.
that murphy kid
can skate baby… made several nice rushes end to end, i was impressed, even before i heard he’s a league leader in scoring
NYI Hockey! We'll get that winless month yet!
Based on my track record
I have to vote for Larsson. I wanted Hedman, then I wanted Fowler, if you can sense a pattern that I think we need a centerpiece defenseman you are correct. I am not unhappy with Tavares, Nino has left me with few doubts, but after seeing this team go 10 deep on defense with few answers, I’m willing to wait the couple of seasons before Larsson makes an impression. Then again I only see these guys a few times a year and can’t really say I have a soldi opinion on any of them.
Sarcasm is my permanent font.
Yeah, in hindsight, perhaps they should have taken Fowler. I’m still very happy they took JT over Hedman though.
The issue is that Larsson will probably go #1 and if the Isles don’t have that pick, they need a back up plan, which is likely to be a forward because of the dearth of other top-flight defensive prospects.
I know this sounds ridiculous but...
…why is Larsson rated so highly? Is he THAT head and shoulders better than Doug Hamilton? Is he that good that he’s as valuable as the top 3 forwards in the draft? Does playing in the Swedish Elitserien against men make him that much more touted than any of the other big defensemen in the draft? Looking at the top young defensemen in the league and when in the draft order they were selected makes me worry that we’d be wasting such a high pick on a defensemen:
Duncan Keith 54th overall in 2002
Brent Seabrook 14th overall in 2003
Kris Letang 62nd overall in 2005
Shea Weber 49th overall in 2003
Marc Staal 12th overall in 2005
PK Subban 43rd overall in 2007
Dustin Byfuglien 245th overall in 2003
Alex Edler 91st overall in 2004
And then I looked at these high picks and compared them to when the star forwards were picked:
Cam Barker 3rd overall in 2004 (Ovi and Malkin already taken)
Jack Johnson 3rd overall in 2005 (Crosby and Ryan already taken)
Erik Johnson 1st overall in 2006 (taken before J Staal,Toews and Backstrom)??
Thomas Hickey 4th overall in 2007 (Kane and JVR already taken)
Karl Alzner 5th overall in 2007 (see above)
Drew Doughty 2nd overall in 2008 (Stamkos gone, draft loaded with great D)
Zacn Bogosian 3rd overall in 2008 (see above)
Alex Pietrangelo 4th overall in 2008 (see above)
Luke Schenn 5th overall in 2008 (see above)
Victor Hedman 2nd overall in 2009 (taken before Duchene but after Tavares)
Erik Gudbranson 3rd overall in 2010 (Taylor and Tyler already taken)
I guess my point is that it’s rare to take the top Dman over the top forward, so how does one justify it when so many good Norris Trophy candidates are drafted later on?
"Seriously that's the last time you guys f#@%ing won?" -RSH (about beating the Penguins in '93)
Elite defensive prospects will often go at or near the top of drafts because they are comparatively rarer than prolific goal scorers in juniors.
This year’s top forwards don’t stand out nearly as much as the top forwards in the drafts that you cited (Crosby, Malkin, Ovi, Tavares, Stamkos, Hall, etc.). So Larsson gets the nod.
And because some scouts have said he's more nhl-ready/higher talent wise then hedman, and hedman was a no brainer #1.
Larsson has the all around game + the raw skills(offensively + defensively) + the size. He is a no brainer and the safest pick in the draft.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
Okay. Still I'd like to know...
…how has Erik Johnson worked out? Is he still projected to be elite? And is Hedman developing on schedule?
"Seriously that's the last time you guys f#@%ing won?" -RSH (about beating the Penguins in '93)
I did too
He’s had a bit of Johnson-itis (as in Jack) this year though. Dumb plays, inflated head, a little too confident that he’s arrived — and outplayed by his teammate Pietrangelo to boot.
That said, he’s still the full package. Just a bit of growing pains right now; he’s going to have to really screw up to not become a dynamite D-man.
Lighthouse Hockey: "Are you fist-f#$%ing me?!" --P.A. Parenteau
poor kid
In the news most recently for auditioning for a sequel to the Borge Salming classic. He and Halak can have an exclusive St. Louis edition going for them.
PS – the Erik Johnson clip is hosted by Yahoo, which means that many of the comments are brain-meltingly stupid. Spare yourself and watch only the video.
making you Google since 2004
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Hedman, depends on how long you think it will take him to mature fully.
It takes longer for d-men, . But he’s on the verge of a 4goal/32pts season in his 2nd full nhl season at 19, best //- d-man on the team, #1/highest toi d-man on TBL with over 21min/gm, spends time on both pk and pp, and playing against some tougher quality of competition. So I’d say he’s looking optimistically. I’d say he’s on the verge of being a solid reliable 50pts big minute #1 d-man in a few years.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
Depends how you rate a-mac and if you consider streit "on" the isles right now.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
I’d say yes to both questions. Johnson is being a bit overshadowed by his teammate and Hedman isn’t going to steal Stamkos’ spotlight, but watching them play they both prevent scoring chances and transition to offense with the best of them. Look how oftern the Islanders just turn the puck over in the neutral zone and you can seethe value.
Lidstrom was picked 53rd overall, but would Detroit have taken him sooner if they knew he would become the most important player that team has had in twenty years?
Sarcasm is my permanent font.
at that time Detroit was about the only team seriously scouting in Sweden
would never happen today. SI did a piece on it a few years ago.
First and second round draft picks have the highest success rate when used on Dmen, over forwards, then goalies (as measued by games played in the NHL).
Anyways, Larsson was getting good ice time as a 17year old in the SEL. Generally in Europe young guys get minimal ice time. Part of the reason Nicklas Backstrom and Magnus Paajarvi were/are so highly touted is that they were playing big minutes in the SEL at age 17 (16 for MPS, not sure about Backstrom). I’d imagine for D it’s even tougher to get prime TOI than for forwards.
My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
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"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays
by red army line on Jan 29, 2011 6:45 AM EST up reply actions
Hmm…apparently that was the case last year too, per this site. Looks like he’s getting 40 seconds more per game. Maybe less special teams TOI or something, I don’t know. But he’s still close a point every three games (last season he was just over that mark, this season just under).
My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
If you don't know how to use Timeonice, read this.
Behindthenet quick link to QoC/QoT/Corsi/PDO/Zonestarts
"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays
by red army line on Jan 30, 2011 5:55 AM EST up reply actions
not a lock that he will be picked #1
NJ and EDM are the other likely teams to pick #1 and they both need franchise centers which Couturier promises to be. Also, while EDM is weak on defensive prospects, NJ is loaded to the gills with them. So not getting the #1 would not guarantee we would miss Larsson.
Larsson...
This team desperately needs SCORING from the back line. Next year we get a huge boost in that we’ll have a healthy (hopefully) Mark Streit, Andy Mac has been piling up the assists, but not so much in the goal area,,, and we should have two nice point shots in Hamonic and Jurcina. Add to that Larsson/deHaan in 2012-13 and that will be a defense in the top half of the league for sure.
If larsson is gone and Landeskog is available, he’d be my second choice. You can never have enough big hands on the team… never.
Lighthouse Hockey: where "you better check yourself before you rec yourself" -bobl
If your life isn't pathetic enough already, follow me on twitter @JPinVA
Especially when you're the islanders, you can never have enough size. lol
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
Isles Master Plan
I think it is becoming more clear to diehard Isles fans as to just what Snow et. al’s master rebuild plan is….
Isles need 5 chips off the board:
1st line Left wing playmaker for JT, second line right shooting centre, 3rd line right shooting power winger,
Number 2 and 5 defense (I don’t believe you need a number 1 D if you have depth and two number 2 D). All 5 chips need to have size, play with physicality and a two-way game [playoff hockey]. This is why Isles can not be foolish and pull a "Toronto" – give up 2 firsts and 1 second round draft choice for one player when Toronto is at best, 8 players away from contention. You do that move only when you are a few players away and drafting much lower.
In the 2011 draft, barring Larrson, the Isles will most likely be drafting JT’s future winger, one of RNH, Couturier, or Landeskog. Based on where the Isles pick, one of these three will be the man. I am not worried about RNH size, he’ll grow an inch or two more to 6.1 or 6.2., an as he gets his man size, RNH will surely be over 200 pounds.
If the Isles can move up 2nd round pick to around 20th overall, as B.C. pointed out, the Isles may have a shot at big right centre Mika Zibanejad. If that fails, Isles in my view may still be able to take another big right center in Mark McNeil, or draft that big number 5 D (James O? among others)
That would bring Isles down to three chips…Obviously, the top 6 forward spots and the top 4 D will kill a team’s cap if too many have to be signed as FA, and it kills your depth if too many have to be aquired via trade. My main concern with Larsson is that he may not produce offensively. D usually take longer to develop as well, and, too be honest, with Free agency down to 27, i would rather spend 5 mil signing a Shea Weber, trading for another needed "chip" and drafting the other three.
Future:
1st. RNH or Couturier or Landeskog – Tavares – Okposo
2nd. Niederreiter – "Big right centre" – Gabner (both wingers can play either wing)
3rd. Two of Lee, Bailey or Nelson play left wing and centre – "Big right shooting winger"
4th. Cizikas, Ullstrom and Martin.
Off course not all will pan out, but that is why you have extra prospects. If Cizikas or Ullstrom become 3rd liners, great. If two of Bailey, Nelson or Lee make it, excellent – and Bailey already is a 3rd liner now (get rid of RSH – give Bailey centre ice-minutes)
Kabanov, Petrov, Rakshani, Gregoire, are all insurance in case others above don’t pan out.
On D – I am not big on Calvin D, but, he is the same height as Tomas Kaberle, only 25 pounds lighter. DeHaan could very well be same type of player. If not, Matt Donavon IMO is fighting for the same role/roster spot – our insurance. Whomever it is, they will pair on offensive D with either Larrson or that number 2 right D (in addition to Hamonic) when obtained.
Amac and Hamonic are the future 2nd pairing.
Big, defensive number 5 D needs to be acquired, no reason why Isles can not find solid number 6 D and depth through draft or reasonably cheap through other means. If you have to get you bottom D through Free agency, that will screw the cap.
Wysart, and all the others, Kessel, Klementyev are all insurance.
Goalie is obvious Poulin…Backup not a concern with glutten of goalies out there.
Comeau, RSH, Moulson, Streit, Nielson, Pap, as well as a few of the current D are "bridge" players…they will play and be vet presence while prospects develop. Nielson is the only one I percieve as maybe hanging on into future, but he can’t score unless in a shootout. I see him as the vet leader, although this is often neglected to be seen by others. Comeau may very well give a good year next year, his last before UFA. Keep him one more year, but not beyond.
DP – it isn’t the salary but length of time…If we can get 30-40 games out of DP for the next 2-3 years, it is a none issue. It will become a problem down road – but if DP retires, hell, every team in the league is carrying bad contracts against their cap.
I am wondering, if DP’s health can not handle NHL, would he consider being a player-coach in the AHL rather than retiring? My rationale is, a la Redden, send him to minors rather than buyout or retire so as his salary does not go against cap. In two years, Yashin, Witt and Hunter will all be off books. Isles books will be in very good shape compared to most other Teams. Thank you
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jan 28, 2011 7:06 PM EST reply actions
Very good lengthy breakdown.
One of the major things I’d question is the nielsen and dp factors.
Nielsen is only 26. He can realistically be a solid shutdown center for us for a good 5-6yrs if Garth can lock him down. He is reliable, a top-tier defensive center, and has some solid offensive skills. Definitely a player I’d like in our long term plans.
DP has looked really solid lately, and if he comes full back from his injuries without much problem, I wouldn’t be surprised at him being a reliable above average starter for a good 5yrs because he is only 29.
The other thing is RNH. I know he’s around 6’ ~170lbs(BC found), but even if he grows an inch/inch and a half between now and 21, I don’t see him topping out at 200lbs unless he hits the weight room “a lot”, and he isn’t the type of player you see that usually does that. I could see him becoming 6’1’’ 180-190lbs, but 200lbs is likely dreaming for him.
Other then that, I like the breakdown, but you are likely putting way much into the hands of our later draft picks turning into solid nhl players(lee and nelson). Although it looks good now, still too early to be certain to jot them down for the future. I like what I see from the young prospects too though.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
Thanks Ozzyfan
I don’t think our views on Neilson are that far apart. as i said, I think he is the only one of the current players there now as a “bridge” to the future that I can see still there down the road. I do have concerns about Neilson though. His lack of Goal scoring, and, I am not sure Neilson body will be able to handle playoff hockey, he really needs to balk up a bit. Finally, Once the Isles are a few players away from contention, Neilson is the most probable player to bring back what the Isles need in a trade. Not going to get a Shea Weber or a Jeff Carter for nothing.
DP: I don’t know. I hope your right; however, history is not on DPs side. I have serious doubts DP will ever be fully healthy and therefore we will never see his full potential. The situation has been played out before on many teams – guys like Gord Kluzak who should have been one of the best Ds in the league, drafted 1st overall by Boston…Kluzak played through injury after injury until finally forced to retire very young. Never did meet his potential as a result. I hope my fears are wrong though.
I can see you point on RNH – if he grows a few inches (he is about 6 months younger than other three top four prospects (only one born in 93 as opposed to 92) that alone should add 10 pounds to his lanky frame. He will have to hit the gym regardless. I just don’t see 200 pounds as a lot for someone 6’1 or 6’2 plus, but 190s is realistic. He apparently has a very good work ethic though so time will tell, but I agree your opinion has merit and makes sense.
As per the draft picks – I believe Bailey is already a third liner, good defensively and will improve. If Bailey doesn’t become a top six, and does become a solid third liner…only one of Ullstrom, Cizikas, Lee and Nelson need to pan out as a solid third liner…if two them are solid 4th liners, with Martin it is there. If not, fourth line should not be a problem to fill in once you have solid top six and a good 3rd line. I believe Martin will be a very good 4th line energy player. Larsson is probably the best prospect in 2011, and meets the Isles current and future greatest need. I think Ottawa or Edmonton will be picking first barring lottery. The 2012 draft is very good, solid and it is again the year of defenseman…anyone picking top 10 in 2012 will have a shot at a really good D…although I like right shooting left wing, Filip Forsberg for Isles in 2012. Enjoyed reading your posts the last few years Ozzyfan
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jan 29, 2011 8:29 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks. You seem really well informed and have a great analyzing mind. All your points are logical and well put. I see where you arer coming from on those ideas now.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
Too many years in school…grew up in rural Ontario, heart of Leaf country. Fell in love with dynasty Isles…only pro team in sports history that was the best at every aspect of the game with no weaknesses anywhere. The GM, coach and scouts were second to none. The epitome of sport and life – It was a tough place to be in during the drive for five when the entire country (Canada) were acting like the threat of a Canadian team having to share the record of 5 straight cups with an American team was The War of 1812 all over lol. I was the only kid in the entire school cheering for the Isles over Edmonton. Enjoyed your blogg on Parise here and on Devil’s cite…cheers Ozzy
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jan 30, 2011 6:35 PM EST up reply actions
Great backstory!
Thanks for that, lifer. And welcome to the site — thanks for joining!
Lighthouse Hockey: "Are you fist-f#$%ing me?!" --P.A. Parenteau
lol, Thanks. And I forgot to say welcome.
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
Regarding RH/LH forwards...
…is it THAT important to have equal representation in your top 6?
2010 Hawks: LH Toews, Kane, Hossa
RH Sharp, Byfuglien, Broweur
2011 Flyers: LH Richards, JVR, Hartnell
RH Carter, Briere, Giroux
2012 Isles : LH Tavares, Grabner, Moulson, Bailey, Nielsen
RH Okposo, Comeau, Parenteau
Future Isles: LH Niederreiter, Lee, Nelson, Petrov
RH
"Seriously that's the last time you guys f#@%ing won?" -RSH (about beating the Penguins in '93)
Dang phone
Future Isles RH Kabanov, Rahkshani
Besides Okposo, we look pretty weak in RH’ers. Is this a cause for concern?
"Seriously that's the last time you guys f#@%ing won?" -RSH (about beating the Penguins in '93)
Yeah...I think you're right
when Detroit won in 08 their only top RH was Mikael Samuelsson (Zett, Dats, Franz, Holm, Hudler, Filp, Cleary all LH)
When Pitt won in 09 their only top RH was Bill Guerin (and Tyler Kennedy I guess) (Sid, Malkin, J Staal, Talbot, Kunitz, Fedotenko, and Satan all LH)
So I guess having a RH center is overrated.
"Seriously that's the last time you guys f#@%ing won?" -RSH (about beating the Penguins in '93)
Kabanov
I believe Kabanov shoots left…it comes done to angles, passes, etc. And faceoffs too. Lack of Righties is a current weakness throughout the Isles. Doesn’t mean you can’t win, but certainly it is better to have the advantage. Best example I can think of is the drive for five: Isles down two games to none against Montreal. Guy Carboneau, A right handed defensive centre was killing the Isles in faceoffs, and of course, Bob Gainey was shutting down Bossy. Arbour moved to have Brent Sutter, another righty, out there taking faceoffs against Carboneau – it worked – and of course, Trottier charged Gainey, left his feet riding Gainey into the boards dislocating both Gainey’s shoulders,,,Bossy had a better go of it after that….hate to admit it but I think Philly may have the best one-two punch down centre with Lefty Richards and Righty Carter. Both are playoff forwards.
Something that hasn’t been noted yet, the 2012 Draft is very strong, and aside from the first overall pick(a russian named Yakupov), 2012 is the year of defensemen…I like Right shooting left wing Filip Forsberg for Isles in 2012 though.
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jan 29, 2011 8:07 PM EST up reply actions
He's a righty according to youtube videos...Kabanov that is...but more importantly
…great Isles-Habs story, didn’t get to watch my favorite player Bryan Trottier while he was still playing, only videos of old games. It bothers me that the Isles don’t have a Trottier-type player in their organization now, which leads me to irrationally prefer they draft Landeskog over Larsson. I know they need Larsson more, and he’ll probably be much better than Gabriel, but I favor players like Mike Richards and Trots, and I look forward to the day when Garth Snow, who prefers players with character, finds the next complete player like our #19.
"Seriously that's the last time you guys f#@%ing won?" -RSH (about beating the Penguins in '93)
I'm hoping Anders Lee
Turns into that guy…even though it’s a long shot. His size, scoring, and physicality have me dreaming.
"Gervais...he looks danger in the fist with his face!" JPinVA
by Keith Quinn on Jan 29, 2011 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
Good enough
I’ll take that too!
"Gervais...he looks danger in the fist with his face!" JPinVA
by Keith Quinn on Jan 30, 2011 12:53 AM EST up reply actions
Still too early to draft by position
The Islander should still take the best player available. That being said; it looks like Larsson’s the best player available in the draft, fits the Islanders needs the most (right handed top 4 D-man), will be ready to play in the NHL next year and will probable be taken by the Oilers first overall.
Oh well, that will leave the three forwards. One thing Snow has done is look at character, which is one of the reasons he traded down to pick Bailey. While I like Couturier and would be glad to see his size and defensive centerman on our second or third line next year; I like Landeskog.
When you hear his coach compare Landeskog to Mike Richards; the fact that he’s another european who came over to play Junior Hockey (like Nino) in Canada. He’s the captain of his team and he has the size and ability to play in the NHL next year. I think he has more offensice up size than Couturier and will be more of an overall player than RNH.
I’d like to see him on a 2nd line next year: Landeskog-Bailey-Okposo;
with Moulson-Tavares -Nino as the top line and Comeau-Nielsen-Grabner the third.
Although; Larsson does fit even better; Consider this after Streit’s contract runs out;
with a future Isles defense of
Left: Right
A-Mac – Larsson
deHaan – Hamonic
Donovan – Kessel
Wishart
Note: Regarding Neilsen. This kid is a keeper but, long term I think he would be great as the fourth line center and PK specialist on a good team.
The Isles will need another center to go with Tavares. I’m still holding on to hope that Bailey could be that man. I also like Broock Nelson but, he’s two or three years away. Couturier would fit nicely but, then the Isles would need a winger to take Landeskog spot.
You see the Islanders really could use Larsson, Landeskog and Couturier. So take the best player available and continue the rebuild.
Adam Larsson
You said it yourself BC
Adam Larsson would be the perfect choice to fill that slot. He would certainly be the most talented blueliner to join the orange and blue since Bowtie Bill stepped up to the podium at Montreal’s Mount Royal Hotel on May 15, 1973
Although one can argue that Larsson still is unproven … and to suggest, by saying he would be the most talented blueliner since… in comparrison with a certain HOF defenseman with Norris Trophies and Captaining FOUR Stanley Cups is kinda holding Larsson up against ALL the other good and proven defenseman that have doned the orange and blue, and saying he’s more talented than them … We’ve had some good ones … Fellow Swedes, Kenny Jonsson & Tomas Jonsson … then you can argue even for Aucoin, Schneider, Malikov, shortlived Berard and Hamirlik … not to mention even Jean Potvin was a pretty good defenseman.
No you can argue the point of his potential ceiling being higher … but to be honest… I’m not sure where those other guys’ ceiling was projected at the time they were drafted… or if they even fell short, met or exceeded those expectations.
Where exactly does Larsson fit in on the career potential totem pole? I hate comparing prospects with existing or retired players, because I feel every player brings their own game to the rink … and it’s really not fair since the game has changed over the years … I’ve read comparrisions with Lidstrom … but is that because he truely possesses that talent? Or is it because he’s also a Swedish defenseman? It’s just not fair to compare him with a future hall of famer. So I will pose this question.
What kinda impact player does he project to be? Does he take command of the game like Lidstrom? Or even Potvin or Mark Howe? Is he a Coffey / Leetch? How about even a reliable Adam Foote, who can contribute offensively, but is more of a defensive defenseman.
I’ve read draft previews over 3 seperate decades, and I’ve see all these comparisons with star players, but after seeing some of those players careers mature, they had become nothing but a shadow of the player they were supposed to emmulate. Truth be told some players came into their own and threw up some good numbers, but they became the player that “they” were. Not some out of reach legend.
Crosby will probably become a HOF player … but he’s his own player with his own style. He may have Yzerman type numbers… but Stevie Wonder was one of a kind, and so is Sid.
I think the Islanders need a Larsson … Lidstrom had his time, you can’t clone that. Adam Larsson is going to make some team happy… that is for sure.
by 19 Isle in NJ 22 on Jan 29, 2011 5:51 PM EST reply actions
think its a fair statement
None of us are prophets, but I think it is fair to assume that Larsson will be a better defenseman than all of those others including Kenny Jonsson. In fact, really only Kenny and Denis belong in the same sentence…certainly not Jean Potvin. I mean the guy is already projecting better than Hedman and Doughty…in fact, even better than Lidstrom. Hard to make comparisons, but one Swedish commentator called him a Swedish Ray Bourque. We will see.
Don't forget the original "Lidstrom"...
Stefan Persson…may have been second best Isles D ever.
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jan 30, 2011 6:07 PM EST reply actions
I think most folks would award that title to Kenny Jonsson
SP is one of the better ones as are Kenny Morrow, Dave Langevin, Dave Lewis, Tomas Jonson, Darius Kasparaitis, Gord Lane, and Vladimir Malakhov. Denis and KJ are at the top of the list though.
Don't think Kenny J
….would have ever had the playoff success of Persson….love Kenny, but with his concussion problems, hate to say it but I see him as a regular season defenseman…
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jan 30, 2011 8:03 PM EST reply actions
Kenny J didn't have the cast around him that Persson did
Look at that list. Denis and five others played with Persson. NONE of the others played with Kenny. If Kenny was a regular season player, it was because the Islander teams he played on were mostly regular season teams. It is easy to rack up post-season stats when your team routinely makes the playoffs and goes deep AND you have a LOT of other talented guys around you.
Gord Lane
Hard to believe he was once called the worst defenseman on the worst team when with Washington.
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jan 30, 2011 8:03 PM EST reply actions
playing on a great team will make you better
Not only were players like Potvin and Trottier always pushing teammates to be better, having so many talented veterans around a player made it easier to get away with mistakes.
Kenny J
I’d agree with you on the cast of players B.C., but my point about Kenny J as a regular-season player is based entirely on the fact that he had very serious concussion problems. Even if Kenny J played for the Dynasty Isles, or Detroit with Yzerman et el., Kenny was always one hit/elbow/or boarding away from the press box. Not fair, but I do see it as an unfortunate reality. Playoffs and the regular season are two different games.
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jan 30, 2011 8:19 PM EST reply actions
any player could be one hit away
and I do not recall players getting injured any more frequently in the playoffs than in the regular season. Just do not think you can make assumptions about the kind of playoff competitor a player is based on such a limited data as with KJ.
Have to agree to disagree
Kenny J’s concussion problems were very well documented. He was good for 60 to 66 games a year, and you could take it to the bank that he’d have time off for concussions. So it is a stretch IMO to put Kenny J as one in the same with any player…Just as Trottier left his feet, charged Gainey and dislocated his shoulders to stop Gainey from shutting down Bossy in 84, Steven’s nailing Lindros with a “clean” check and Bobbly Clarke’s slash on the Russian Kharlmov is 72, someone would have taken advantage of Kenny. I think if you do some digging, you find many players talking about how the physicality in the playoffs is much more intense…and hence injuries. From Don Cherry’s rants that regular season is Europe hockey and the playoffs north American – to Tie Domi’s response to a journalist who asked why he didn’t play ever game like he did in a playoff game against the Islanders- Domi replied that you couldn’t play like that every game, you’d be injured all the time. Even Gretzky learned from walking past the Isles locker room after 4 straight game cup defeat in 83. That was not regular season hockey.
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jan 30, 2011 8:34 PM EST reply actions
take it to the bank?
He had three seasons where he had 63-66 gp. Most of the rest he had high 70s, low 80s gp. He played in every playoff game the Islanders had except for the Toronto series and the Roberts hit would have likely injured any player. Don’t see how you can draw the conclusions you do. At best, it is an untested thesis and always will be. I wish a lot of more recent Islander defensemen could say that they played as much and as consistently as Kenny.
Sorry...
Again have to agree to disagree…if its a thesis it has been well tested, Re: players with concussion histories…I would never feel comfortable with my playoff hopes tied to a player with a history of concussions such as Kenny J…
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jan 30, 2011 11:41 PM EST up reply actions
B.C., I do enjoy your posts and agree with you most of the time, but I also think it has to be considered that a guy like Roberts may have been targeting Kenny J for a reason, a la Lindros, and others. If given the choice, I’d rather have a healthy Persson. Kenny had so many concussions, there were some calling him “concussion Kenny”, justify trade from toronto perspective. If it were not for the concussions, I would choose differently. Your choice is yours though.
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jan 30, 2011 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
this thesis hasn't been tested at all...and never will be
My point is that KJ had so LITTLE opportunity to perform in the playoffs that your theory is, at best, untested. Of the few instances he DID have to perform, there was only one instance of him being injured and, again, any player likely would have been injured by Roberts’ hit.
My point is that you are free to believe that KJ would have been less durable in the playoffs than Persson, but it is an unprovable thesis at best. I still go with the guy who, to my mind, was more talented. I would probably put either Persson or Morrow fourth. Morrow rarely gets enough credit because he just quietly did his job…shutting down opposing forwards routinely and often scoring huge goals. If Larsson is drafted, he could wind up being the most talented of all—though as a fanatical fan of The Captain, I cannot believe I am saying that!
unproveable, but not untestable
At the very least, we could look at the numbers of games each played and the percentages.
Jonsson played 581 of 656 Isles games in his eight full years here, 88.6%. Persson played nine years here: his first seven break down to 512 of 560, a percentage of 91.4. They were each 29 at this point.
Here, Jonsson went back overseas, in part due to the lockout, and he never came back to the NHL. Persson played two more seasons, and was often hurt, appearing 110 times in 160 Isles games, only 68.8%. So overall, Jonsson eventually edges him out, .886 to .864. Going with year-by-year percentages, Jonsson played 80% or more of the games five times out of eight full Islander seasons, with the three low years coming consecutively – all before 2001-2002. Persson has seven such years out of nine, with his two low years coming back-to-back at the end. I’d call it a wash.
In the playoffs, Persson played 79.1% of the Isles games, 102 of 129; Jonsson played 19 of 21, or 90.5%. Small sample size. The best evidence we have is that he played all ten Isles playoff games the year after his big concussion – but he didn’t play stateside his age 30 and 31 years the way Persson did, and only appeared for two playoff games for Rogle (both in 04-05). I don’t know how many other games he missed. He played regularly for Sweden internationally during the past five years, so… again, eh.
Of course, this game-counting exercise can’t account for TOI numbers, which we largely don’t have available for Stefan Persson… and the possibility that he was DNP-CD from time to time, considering that he played on a deeper team, for a coach who enjoyed exploiting that depth against his opponents.
My own 2¢ – it’s a wash, from what we can tell.
making you Google since 2004
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
thanks for the comparison, MIKB
To summarize CanadianIsles, he rates KJ below SP because, as his theory goes, KJ would never have withstood the additional battering that comes with all those extra playoff games that SP had to play that KJ didn’t.
My point is that KJ’s only injury in playoff competition was on a hit that would have probably injured whoever sustained it—SP included. We will never know how well he would have held up in playoff competition comparable to what SP endured on the NHL level because he never had those games.
to underline your point,
was watching the 1982 Pitt series finale. SP left in the first period with a bruised shoulder and never returned…even though the Isles won in OT after trailing 3-1 with about 5 minutes left in an elimination game. Did he return for the Rangers? Will look at the Vancouver finale to see if he was in that. The dynasty Isles had the quality depth to allow a SP to sit out games. KJ never had that option.
Talking past each other...
Persson NEVER HAD CONCUSSION ISSUES> B.C., anyone who even remotely suggestions that concussions is a “theory”…well what can I say, overwhelming medical data on that subject…that Toronto-NYI playoff series in my view, was the ONLY real playoff series Kenny J played in, certainly that was the only Isles team that had a real chance in a while, and you could say the same about the Leafs team they played. 4-1 first round blowouts that the Isles were never really in, that does not even compare to that series. Playoffs is a war of attrition. I’ve played a lot of hockey, no where near pro, but I know enough that it doesn’t take a genius to understand a coach telling his players that KJ is killing their offense, there are no friends on the ice, do your job. When you cross over the blueline, dump the puck in KJs end, get him turned around and hit him into the boards as hard as you can everytime. That Roberts hit was with purpose and intentional, even if it was “legal” as per Lindros. Kenny J, Brett Lindros, Savard, on and on. you could even look at Travis Green – was he a “gutless puke” or was Green doing his job making that hit? No way Kenny J ever survives in the playoffs long enough for a team to win 16 games – Just as Potvin broke Beng Gustuvan (spelling?) leg with a legal hip check, sending him from Washington back to Europe, Gary Suter’s hit on Gretzky – any team whose defense was that dependent on a very good defenseman with a huge achilles heel like Kenny? I am not disagreeing with you that Kenny was super talented, made Accoun better…Brett Lindros was one of the better checkers in the game too, Marc Savard is a very good playmaker. It is easy to survive when your not threatening anyone, but if it comes down to a fight for the cup, and your a series threat, wouldn’t matter if it were Philly, Toronto or Calgary, Kenny would have been targeted. It comes down to this: if you were coach GM, you’d feel comfortable with your chances going for the cup with Kenny. Me? I’m going to tell Roberts, Tucker and the rest of my big wingers to dump the puck in Kenny’s end, get him turned around and hit him as hard as you can everytime. When Kenny’s out with a concussion, my chances of moving to the next round for the cup are much better. Those two teams were fairly evenly matched, had a shot, but they were no longer even after intentional hits to injury (although the Peca hit was well outside of the rules in my view). There are few injuries in hockey that are more series or on par with concussions.
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jan 31, 2011 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
Peca...
I’m referring to Tucker’s knee sweep of Peca above..
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jan 31, 2011 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
Again, this is speculation
We will not know how KJ would have faired in longer series because the Isles never got that far. It seems strange that, if the Leafs were intentionally trying to do that over and over again, it took to—what?—Game 5 for that to happen.
In any event, it really is not possible to prove what you’re saying. That being the case, I would go with the guy who I think most Islander fans believe is more talented.
has me thinking...
Bossy went through same thing towards end with his back…lou Francisgetti or however you spell his name cheap shot artist – Ken Morrow would have played longer most likely if not for all the playoff hockey, and I think Lindros, if we played for someone like Atlanta the last decade, avoided playoffs – we probably too would have had longer career…don’t think Kenny Morrow would trade in his rings though
by CanadianIsleslifer on Jan 30, 2011 8:44 PM EST reply actions
All that playoff hockey -- and those Canada Cups, too
It amazes me how much intense, high-stakes hockey the Dynasty’s core played back then. It’s no wonder so many of them were on fumes or retired by the end of the ’80s. In that context, pretty impressive that Trottier lasted as long as he did.
Lighthouse Hockey: "Are you fist-f#$%ing me?!" --P.A. Parenteau
Larsson looks like a lock for #1 to me
Note my fanshot. He has been playing with a groin injury for most of the season and now seems to have recovered.
Oil may be our main competition for the #1
If they get it and we are #2, Boston will likely have the #5. If they are willing to give up their second first to move up, we draft Murphy with the #5 and use the Boston first to get Oleksiak—Chara sized and Chara like defenseman. There’s a star quality top pairing for the next 15 years. Use other picks to move the #32 up to get a center.
I have the sinking feeling
…that Toronto will “win” the draft lottery and the Bruins are landing Larsson.
making you Google since 2004
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Non-hockey scribblings at nightflyblog
You take that back! lol
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
Of course Toronto cannot win since its slot belongs to Boston
The odds:
30th: 48.2%, 29th: 18.8%, 28th: 14.2%, 27th: 10.7%, and 26th: 8.1%. So it is heavily weighted in favor of the 30th place finisher and the 26th overall odds are huge as it should be. The fact that none of the slots has flipped in a few years doesn’t change the odds.
50% chance at landing the pick is great odds. And wouldn't that 48% be greater then 48% technically because all 4 of it's competitor's have less then a 19% chance of beating it?
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
gotcha, that makes sense
The Isles future looks brighter then most would think with these young core guys in place:
Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, Niederreiter, Grabner, Moulson, MacDonald, Hamonic, and DeHaan.
Regarding Larsson
Living in Sweden and seen Larsson play on numerous occasions. Don’t get fooled by his point production this year. He hasn’t played as much PP as last year. Though he has one of the SEL:s best +/- stats. Guess the oilers will pick him first as mentioned in another thread so Couturier/Landeskog seems like a possible reach.
Thanks for the insight, David, and don't be a stranger!
As I have pointed out and as you may know, he has also been battling a groin injury all season and that not only helps explain his lack of production but also speaks well of his character. I had noticed that his ice time was down, but hadn’t been sure why.
As to the Oil, they are tanking at quite a rate and they may wind up with the worst record, but there is still the matter of the lottery. So it is far from clear that he will wind up with the Oil. Also, they need a franchise center just about as much as a franchise defenseman, so it is not a lock that they would pick Larsson even IF they get the #! overall pick. Thanks for commenting!
Thanks BC
Yeah you’re right about that that groin injury. Apparently a problem almost the whole season. And remember, David Rundblad has been absolutely outstanding this season and Tim Erixson has been good as well hence the limited ice time with Skelleftea.
Yep, the lottery might be our chance. Can’t really see Oilers pass on him although they need a pivot as well.
I’ll try to get in touch with a Skelleftea supporter and see what their opinion is regarding Larsson.
it's very close right now
Oil—40 pts
NYI—41 pts
OTT—42 pts
Isles have two games in hand on Ottawa and the Oil one. So conceivably the Isles could have 45 points and the Oil 42 and Ottawa would be in position to get the #1 because of a larger goal differential. Depending, of course, on the lottery. Ottawa and the Oil have been in free fall, so they may rebound and move ahead of the Isles in the standings. The picture may be clearer after the trade deadline on Feb. 28th.
Yes, I know that Rundblad and Erixon have been quite good this year and that, in fact, Skelleftea has been dominant this year. Hadn’t thought of Erixon as that much of an offensive player. Of course, any info on Larsson you can offer would be appreciated. We are also interested in Zabinejad.
You wonder what Ottawa will look for if they get the #1 pick? I mean, Erik Karlsson and David Rundblad are two very promising d-men selected with 1st round picks. The end of this season will surely be exciting when it comes to the draft and who will finish where.
Zibanejad. Oh my God. This kid is having a superb season. Almost made the WJC for Sweden. Anders Ostberg (one of the best pundits when it comes to Junior hockey in Sweden) thinks this guy is #3 among the Swedish players this upcoming draft right behind Larsson and Landeskog. He predicts Mika will go in the 1st round so I believe we will have to focus on other players in the 2nd and 3rd round.
Yesterday Zibanejad actually signed a new two year contract with his current club Djurgardens IF.
If we were to get someone from Sweden I would go for Jonas Brodin or Oscar Klefbom from Farjestad if they are not taken in the 1st round as well obviously. Brodin has had a tremendous season with the senior team.
I hope all of you excuse me for spelling and grammatical errors. English is not my first language so I hope it’s not too annoying reading my posts. :)
Your English is fine!
If Couturier is on the board when Ottawa picks, they will resolve to God that they will live better lives from now on and select him!!! They need a franchise center of the future and drafting him might make it easier to trade Spezza and really make it a thorough rebuild.
Most mocks also have Rakkel going in the first as well. Some have Brodin and Klefbom…more often Brodin…going in the first. My guess is that if Garth gets to pick Larsson first, he will go for a forward with the second pick. I also am guessing that he will package his lesser picks and move the second round pick up into the first as it is a top heavy draft and he has been doing that the last few drafts anyway. Drafting Larsson and Zabinejad would be ideal, IMHO. If, on top of that, Garth could work a trade with the Pens of Parenteau for their big hulking snarly LW prospect Eric Tangradi, that would be absolutely perfect.
Not a bad way to fastern a rebuild by trading all your vets for high picks. Trade fisher, alfredsson, and spezza for 1st round picks.
Not to mention, that would be one hell of a fun draft day with 4 1st round picks.
Proud Islanders fan, the organization that iced the greatest team to ever play the game and won 4 straight cups. Best overall player in the nhl right now=Pavel Datsyuk.
don't think they will trade Alfredsson
and don’t know if they would get a first round pick for him if they did. Not sure if they would trade Spezza. They might want both of Boston’s first round picks. Don’t know if Boston would part with them. Also, it would be tough to trade your best player to your division rival and have to see him play against you 6x a season.
Spezza
Not high on Spezza at all. Send him to the dessert or some non-hockey place. Fisher is by far the better all around player. I wouldn’t even want him. Spezza is a slower version of Yashin who scores less goals.
by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 16, 2011 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
I get that you don't like him and Fisher may be a better two way player
but Spezza has much better production and even better +/- plus he is much more the face of the franchise.
Let’s say we will finish outside top four in the draft lottery. What players would be available between 5-8? I know Huberdeau of St John’s? Who else?
Don't see that happening, but...
Brandon Saad, Tyler Biggs, Dougie Hamilton, Ryan Murphy, Joel Armia are all possible.
Duncan Seimans – not necessarily saying I would draft him but he is projected bottom end of top 10….big, physical Left D
by CanadianIsleslifer on Feb 16, 2011 8:50 PM EST reply actions
Thanks David
Another Swedish friend of mine emailed me that video, which I have posted as a fanshot.. Apparently, as per my fanshot this AM, there were a number of scouts at that game, so Mika’s grit became widely known and much discussed in the Swedish media.
Okay, sorry about that. Will post in fanshot section next time. Trying to learn the rulers here. :)
Yeah, he’s really been impressive the last month or so. Probably going to be one of the guys to watch in the WJC-18 this spring. From what I heard kid’s doing most things right at the moment with Djurgarden. Killing penalties, scoring goals and his work ethic has been widely discussed. Very popular among the fans as well.
Yes, I guess he's heating up in terms of scout interest as well from published reports
The ideal would be to draft Larsson with the top pick and get Zibanejad by moving the second rounder up into the first round. Apparently Mika has two years left on his Djurgarden contract and that’s fine because it will probably take that long for him to be NHL-ready.
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1979-80
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May 24, 1980: Tonelli to Nystrom. At long last, the steady build of the New York Islanders from expansion doormat to surprise semifinalist to annual contender reaches the promised land: Buoyed by a late season trade for Butch Goring that gave the team the depth up the middle GM Bill Torrey had been seeking, the Islanders knock off the Philadelphia Flyers in six games.
The victory justified the faith in coach Al Arbour who guided them from their second season to their first Stanley Cup seven seasons later. The Islanders would not be the first expansion team to win the Stanley Cup, but they would be the only one capable of a dynasty.
1980-81
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May 21, 1981: This time it was much easier. After falling to "only" 91 points in the 1979-80 season, the Islanders returned to their division title tradition, piling up 110 points -- a whole 13 points over second-place Philadelphia.
Between the quarterfinals (where they beat the upstart Oilers in six games) and the finals, the Islanders reeled off eight consecutive wins -- with a four-game sweep of archrival Rangers in between. As they defeated the Minnesota North Stars in five games for their second Cup, their goal difference in the final was a combined +10.
1981-82
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May 16, 1982: Another year, another landslide title. The Islanders won the Patrick Division by a whopping 26 points over the second-place Rangers, and were seven points clear of their nearest competition for the President's Trophy, the still-not-quite-ripe Edmonton Oilers.
A first-round scare against the Pittsburgh Penguins turned in the Isles' favor thanks to John Tonelli's heroics, and a true dynasty was on its way: Past the Rangers in six games, then an eight-game sweep of the Quebec Nordiques and Vancouver Canucks to run away with the Stanley Cup.
1982-83
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May 17, 1983: Not so fast, whipper-snappers. The Edmonton Oilers' steadily rising challenge for league supremacy took them all the way to the finals for the first time, where the New York Islanders summarily dispatched them in a four-game sweep. For the Islanders, the Dynasty was secured. For the Oilers, it was a powerful lesson in where talent ends and the demands of playoff hockey begin.
Four years, four Cups, 16 consecutive playoff series wins (a record that would grow to 19 until the rematch with the Oilers the following year). Mike Bossy scored 60 goals yet again, and Wayne Gretzky became acquainted with Billy Smith's crease.
