There Is No Replacing Mark Streit
by Dominik on Sep 27, 2010 7:00 AM EDT
in Big Picture Musings
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The Mark Streit injury news, however it turns out (there is a very bad possibility and there is a worse possibility), has got me down. So first, a fun update from the Daily News on a beloved original- and Dynasty-era Islander: Garry Howatt is roping steers in Arizona. Of course.
Don't care how you like your hockey, or how old, mature or immune-to-stardom you get, there is something about your faves living up to the narrative you'd have constructed for them. So the ol' Islanders tough guy ropes steers. And Howatt's fellow Albertan Brian Sutter (my dad's favorite Sutter, the first NHL Sutter) fell off a horse, broke his ribs and collapsed a lung -- yet kept riding for four days and waited another week to see a doctor. He didn't realize he was that hurt. Of course.
Although Newsday reports Streit will get a second opinion [sub.] on what sounds like a massively injured shoulder, I don't suspect the Islanders will ask him be an Albertan about it. Doug Weight rehabbed and played through a bad shoulder injury last season, and we suffered (none more than him) his extremely diminished results; he had surgery this summer after all, saying he shouldn't have tried to play through it. Come to think of it, the aforementioned Brian Sutter's playing career was shortened by a bad shoulder -- one he played through to steadily diminishing returns before going behind the bench.
So assuming Streit is lost for the extent of the season -- guess we can close this poll -- what now?
All Is Not Lost; It's Just Considerably Worse than Before
Streit anchored the defense, had the third-most points on the team, and led all Islanders in ice time last year by a full 5 minutes per game over the next guy. Is there a position the Islanders could less afford to lose in 2010-11? Probably not. (And how Satherific is it that, two summers after two very different free agent decisions, the Rangers are trying to bury the remaining $23 million on Wade Redden's contract, while the Islanders are mourning the loss of Streit, who's got just $12.3 million left on his?)
Garth Snow upgraded the blueline over the summer because 1) it needed it badly, but also 2) blueline injuries happen. Carrying 8 one-way contracts was smart insurance; and now we see all too painfully why. Of course, when I proposed last month that training camp injuries might sort the blueline out for us, I never dreamed it would be this devastating. While we're seeing training camp injuries all around the league (Minnesota's Josh Harding the latest, with a severely injured knee), none have been as important to his team as Streit.
It's not that I think all is lost or we should give up now; it's just that I've seen calls for Snow to do something! -- and as we'll get to in a moment, I don't believe there are any do something! options out there.
Ripple Effects
The biggest problem with a top-tier injury like Streit is suddenly everyone has to move up, everyone has to take on assignments above their paygrade. Sometimes that produces revelations (such as Andrew MacDonald after Radek Martinek's injury last year), but more often it produces overexposure (Bruno Gervais playing too many minutes).
So now James Wisniewski becomes even more important, although his career thus far has shown he's no #1. Martinek's health becomes more important. MacDonald's role and Jack Hillen's role each increases. We probably end up seeing a forward on the powerplay point more than we'd like -- and we might see Wiz on said powerplay shoot more than we'd like. Mark Eaton and Milan Jurcina, brought in to fill the depths behind a likely top pair of Streit-Wiz, now shoulder more.
Maybe this gives Gervais a new lease in his walk year and creates a better opportunity for Dylan Reese, Mark Katic or Dustin Kohn (while also hurting Bridgeport's defense). Maybe the chain effect means Travis Hamonic or even Calvin de Haan see the NHL sooner. Or maybe new invite Anders Eriksson brings the "veteran savvy" juice to camp and gets a real contract out of it. Despite my overall pessimism, I actually do expect one or two guys to show us more than we knew they had as a result.
External Options: Tom, Dick and Harry
But no matter what, the Islanders are now a weaker team and, barring a major revelation (hey, Albert Pujols' career started after Bobby Bonilla got injured in camp), Streit's absence will translate into more losses over the long haul of this season. For a team with a thin margin to be in the playoff picture, that hurts. But that's what losing your #1 does.
And the external options that immediately come to mind just don't do it. At all. Sheldon Souray still (presumably?) has a slapshot but a Martinek-like (or is it Witt-like?) recent injury history and two years left at an unpalatable figure ($5.4 million cap, $4.5 million actual salary, age 34), save for via re-entry waivers. While I'd accept a desperate play for Souray, particularly for free and at re-entry's 50% discount, I strongly fear he'd disappoint those who think he can still be the answer.
Meanwhile, Wade Redden's play and contract is far worse. I've actually seen Mathieu Schneider's name -- seriously -- thrown out there a few times, which is ... unspeakable unless someone erased the last decade of my life. (Excluding the Islanders, I've also read theories about a Souray-Redden arrangement between the Oilers and Oilers East, as wherever there are mutual problems there are people putting the two together.)
If it's just a powerplay cannon we're after, might as well throw a bone to ex-Isle Marc-Andre Bergeron rather than bring Souray in to throw bombs on the PP and either play deficient at 5-on-5 (like MAB) or be miserable because he's not being used more 5-on-5. (At least MAB is used to that bit role.)
So with no real replacements available, whether internally or externally we're going to see guys share the duties to fill in and likely suffer somewhat as a result. It stinks, but that's the reality when you lose a blueline anchor in late September.
Can this franchise ever catch a break? I don't know, but throwing my Streit depression aside -- and this is what's great about hockey -- I can't wait for the season to start so we can find out.
* * *
P.S. This is why I HATE doing season previews before games have even started!
P.P.S. Worse Islanders injury since Peca, or did DiPietro's All-Star injury in '08 take that title?
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Screwed
We are massively screwed…There is NOBODY on the current market, either via trade or free agency, that can take Streit’s place on the Islander blue line. And to think, it was an innocent light shove by Moulson that caught Mark off balance. What a blow.
Ken Danyko
I was listening to Hockey Night Live the other night and they were previewing the Islanders…..Danyko was talking about the key fort the Islanders this year and it he thought it had nothing to do with roster moves or individual performaces/statistical goals.
Danyko talked about attitude and character. He talked about Heart and belief in oneself.
He said that the key for the islanders is that they look one another in the eye and tell each other that WE ARE A PLAYOFF TEAM…We are not a rebuilding situation.
The Streit news is tough….very, very tough news. Lets hope the players in that room, along with Coach Gordon and Garth Snow can channel their energies properly after this news. Maybe they can use this event to develop an “Us Against The World” mentality…..“Nobody thought were a playoff team before this….and Now we are considered to have no chance”.
Lets Go Islanders!!
FB4Real
"Past performance Is Not A Guarantee For Future Results"
by FB4Real on Sep 27, 2010 8:54 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
FB4Real Rules
This is the best comment I’ve read in weeks. What’s even better is that based on a lot of the quotes in papers and online, the players on this team have the attitude that 4real is talking about. I just wish the fans would be a little more optimistic. You would think that we should just forfeit the season based on the comments at IPB.
Dominick is right
Thanks for the support Nyntwun….. Dominick is right though….I mean seriously…THERE IS NO REPLACING MARK STREIT. It can’t be done and more importantly, the Islanders shouldn’t even try to replace him.
FB4Real
"Past performance Is Not A Guarantee For Future Results"
Not giving up here
Yeah, just to reiterate, I’m by no means throwing in the towel. I’m still excited for the season. I’m just very unimpressed with what external options are out there, and think most are not worth the trouble.
So if Snow stands pat or only brings in a depth guy, I’m not going to be crying that he “did nothing to replace Streit.” Things like this happen, and they force you to learn more, sooner, about your players. I’m not sure they can know what might need to be done now more than say, in November when they’ve gotten a better look at how the squad has progressed (and also at who else has gotten hurt).
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
I'm reminded of some TV wisdom
Head Coach Lou Grant once famously said to his star player, “You’ve got spunk…. I hate spunk.”
IOW, as much as I love playing with heart, and “He doesn’t think it’s a show, he thinks it’s a fight” and scrappy gritty gutty play – it’s not a substitute for skill. If the Isles don’t get a very large surprise contribution to replace what Streit brings to the team, they are not making the playoffs this season.
That being said – a healthy Martinek, a leap from Wiznewski, and continued improvement from MacDonald and Hillen MAY bridge the gap.
(Of course, they could call up that new kid I saw on the graphic on that Hockey Night Live broadcast – Travis Harmonic – he may be a player, though I can’t remember hearing about him during camp.)
82 days into my latest contract approval process
Me too
I mean, a realistic scenario is they bust their arses covering for Streit’s loss, with some revelations and some disappointments, and then fall short. A lot of skill lost that heart cannot replace.
It’s sort of like the rebuild: In the room, you want them hellbent on making the playoffs and all that, but last year in particular you know what’s realistic.
I really feel bad for Streit. Hopefully the final two years of his contract are a competitive payoff for him for his hard work. He deserves that.
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
The whole 'heart' thing is bogus anyway.
What are people suggesting? That the Isles weren’t prepared to play hard and give it their all until Streit went down? Like ‘Uh oh – Streit’s hurt – now we’re really going to have to try our hardest – I was hoping to take it easy this season’ . Its totally bogus. Guys are basically trying their hardest all the time unless they’re disillusioned for some reason. I hope some of these young guys make big improvements and it makes up for his loss – but it won’t be because Streit’s injury inspired them to try harder.
by TMS on Sep 28, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I mostly agree
Though I do leave a small percentage of room for “renewed clarity of focus” or “heart” or “come to Jesus moment” or whatever it shall be called, that can inspire players, or any practitioner of any trade, to take things more seriously and discover untapped potential.
We can’t account for it, no way to quantify it (and it’s surely small anyway, and can’t compensate for skill), no way to separate it from luck — but it’s all too human to be a relative passenger at times and then have someone or some event shake you into realizing what you thought was full effort or a cushy job before is actually not max effort, or not a secure job at all.
I mention this sparingly because it’s always MSM shorthand for any narrative (annoying soccer phrase: “they lacked belief”), but I do believe it’s a real element of some kind. It’s just impossible to peg, quantify, or separate from most forms of luck that aren’t as obvious as, “Thank God Steve Smith shot that puck in off his own goalie.”
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
I always thought Fuhr was more to blame for that – I thought he was standing too far out in front of the net
I agree – events can shake things up and give a person new motivation especially if they create new incentives that weren’t there before. The opportunity to shine as a PP point man and/or a top 4 D-man may do that.
The problem with the situation that results from an injury to a key player is that now you will have to try even harder (on top of already trying hard) just to achieve the same as before and there’s no guarantee that you will. That’s actually somewhat discouraging – not really motivating. In a situation like that you just have to circle the wagons and commit to doing the best that you can with what you’ve got. After a few weeks everyone will just be focused on winning games with the lineup they have.
Yeah, it can definitely blow up in your face…and provide subtle subconscious excuses to fall short.
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
Not exactly.
Think about Josh Bailey in juniors. I dont think there was any question of his talent or that he was going to have a wonderful season. But when his teams Captain and good friend died, Josh reached deep inside and found more there than anyone, perhaps even he himself, though was in there. He surprised everybody with the amount of ass he kicked.
Now I am not saying that Mark hurting his shoulder is the same as someone dying. What I am saying is that when someone faces unexpected obstacles those situations can indeed cause people to find somehting in themselves that they may not have otherwise found. And it isnt because they werent tryong or didnt give a shit before.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Sep 28, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I know what your tring to say, but we really need to fill in streit's hole outside the system.
Be filling the hole within our system, we are not replacing a streit with a Hillen/A-mac, we would be instead replacing a streit with a jurcina/gervais/hamonic/de haan, and although defensively reliable as #6 d-men, they will no way in hell replace the 24mins/gm and 10goals/50pts that would could check off for streit this year. IT’S NEAR IMPOSSIBLE to fill in a guy like that’s whole on a team. For example, it’s like taking Doughty from the kings or Keith from the Hawks, it’s hurts the whole team greatly and needs to be replaced by out of the system. If Hamonic or De Haan were 1 year older, I’d say we could possibly live with the slight loss, but Gervais/Jurcina aren’t 40pt goal scoring d-men year in and out, hell, they aren’t even 20pt d-men year in and out. Unless we fill this hole with a trade for a 40pt d-man, I’m tossing playoff hopes to a near longshot for us this year.
Go isles or Go home.
it's hard either way
The only option may be from within – 10g/50pt defenders are rare and not generally available on the market for the kind of return that the Isles would offer. I mean, what would Chicago demand for Keith or Seabrook? It would be present-wise, future-foolish.
The only way this could get solved out-of-house is if Snow had a bead on a guy just like Streit, seriously undervalued by his present team – or else, a guy with issues (a la Jack Johnson) that may be available on the cheap, that the Isles would hope got his act together. Now, rolling the dice with a third-round pick on a very young guy like Kabanov is one thing; trading serious assets to bring in an older headcase is another kind of hockey… altogether.
Quickly moving up the depth chart
MAB or even a healthy souray would be cheap and great replacement if the other d-men can take some more even strength ice time.
Go isles or Go home.
???
How is Souray cheap at $5.4 million dollars? He’d pretty much have to be Nik Lidstrom at that price to be considered a bargain.
re: MAB – he was already through the Island once; I really don’t see him getting a return engagement.
Quickly moving up the depth chart
Cheap to acquire, I should have been more specific,
it won’t cost us much to get him, but he does get paid a lot.
Go isles or Go home.
5.4 is the cap hit
he is being paid 4.5 mil the next two seasons. Still over-priced but more reasonable. The bargain is that he can be had for nothing in return.
This guy broke Potvin’s record for most PP goals in a season by a D-Man just 3 years ago. I really don’t think he could have fallen off that much. He was injured half of last year and has been on the outs with Tambi for at least as long. Prior season he was 23-30-53. I think with a new situation and a thorough physical he is worth the shot.
Yes, no question in my mind about that,
the guy is a tremendous talent and is by no means a grandpa in the nhl. Last year he broke his hand in a fight, by no means did he tear his shoulder muscles or something. I’m sure his slapper is still ferocious and at a high level. He adds size to our d too, and from what I have read→can still play defense at a bottom 2 to top 4 level (so he isn’t near a defensive liability). He’s worth it as long as he can pass a physical. And, according to his stats last season, he was about a 10goal/30pt d-man in a full-season on the 4th worst offensive team in the nhl. He’s worth at minimum a consideration, I’d honestly give a shot. What’s the worst that can happen from the trade? He earns his paycheck in the minors and we lose a 4th rounder? Let’s be real here. He is completely worth the risk in every way possible. If his stats from 2 seasons ago don’t say something, then I don’t know what does.
Go isles or Go home.
THERE IS NO REPLACING MARK STREIT. It can’t be done and more importantly, the Islanders shouldn’t even try to replace him.
I agree. Isles are better off just working on their kids being sound defensively and seeing what the Wiz can do PP-wise. I dont want to see someone like Souray or MAB or Redden on this team, it does nothing to help us because there is NO REPLACING MARK STREIT. There just isnt.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Sep 28, 2010 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Saying it doesn't help us is a lie,
Without Streit, our powerplay is going to be one of the worst in the league again like last year. If we brought in a souray or a mab (redden is done), our powerplay should automatically jump to the middle of the pack in the nhl standing or better depending on how well wiz plays and how well the pp gels(especially with a souary or mab). Maybe some of you guys don’t realize, adding a 40pts/10goal defenseman to our powerplay makes it average to above average(where it would be below average to bad right now) and it in essence should increase our goal production as a whole team by 15-20goals(should be what we lost with streit). If any of you don’t think a 15-20goals loss in production is big, then you need your head examined.
Go isles or Go home.
Maybe some of you guys don’t realize, adding a 40pts/10goal defenseman to our powerplay makes it average to above average(where it would be below average to bad right now)
It’s not that, it’s that I don’t believe Souray still represents that player, and even if he does represent that player on the PP (I could buy that), I’m not sure the minus he represents at 5-on-5 is worth it. I could be wrong and I certainly have my doubts, but seeing him even before the latest head and wrist injuries gave me the impression he was once-effective blueliner about to fall off a career cliff.
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
When I did a little research of his 5 on 5 totals,
I think he still plays like a #4/#5 d-man on defense, so not really a defensive liability. MAB is more of a defensive liability though. If you want, I’m sure you could give more d-man 20min/game and cut down souray’s/mab’s if we got them. It’s definitely able to work around for them to fit if they were acquired. Defensively, our loss of streit could be filled by more minutes added to eaton/martinek/hillen and maybe a-mac if he’s up to it, but offensively the loss of streit is just so impacting to our pp and team as a whole that his gap must be filled or we are going to have a major negative impact from his whole.
Go isles or Go home.
A"LIE"?
Not it is not a “lie,” it is my opinion- which FYI is just as valid as your own.
I really dont like this response. Do not tell me that I “need to have my head examined” because I dont think adding a defensive liabiliy schmuck like Bergeron to our teams lineup makes them a middle of the pack PP like you do.
Opinions are like assholes- and Id appreciate you not being one when you disagree with mine. Get it?
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Sep 28, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
wow, guess I struck a nerve. sorry.
I disagree then becuase I see no way how adding a 10goal/40pt d-man who can play 4/5min+/gm on the PP and 9/10min or less/gm on 5 on 5 can actually hurt a team at all. Sure, souray isn’t what he used to be but still should be able to play d like a bottom 2 and bergeron plays d like a #7/8 d-man. How either’s time on ice and what they should bring to the game(say a-mac or eaton or martinek is paired with them for most of their minutes, they’d definitely be livable d-men then) should hurt us is beyond me. They automatically bump our pp to a much higher level and will have slight to no effects of hurting our defense due to the limited minutes they will be given.
Go isles or Go home.
Opportunity Knocks Down the Streit
There are 8 defensemen on one-way contracts… and now there are 7. Katic was an AHL All-star, Kohn needs to show something more than mediocrity… Hamonic is trying to make a case to bypass the A, and deHaan should look at the extra PP time in camp to show what he can do in the role which was being held for him in the first place.
Somebody needs to step up! Will they be able to be the Mr. Everything that Streit was… most likely not, but the off season aquisitions were brought in because Streit shouldn’t be the Mr. Everything he was.
This team is still better than last year’s version, and hopefully “indefinitely” isn’t nearly as bad as DiPietro’s “day to day”.
My cup is 3/4 empty, How 'bout yours?
They would need to stay in the playoff picture until March
before Streit gets back. Ugh. That’s a real tall order. What a shame. I saw them as a borderline team with him in the lineup, this is just a blow.
However, they have depth MacDonald and Hillen are a year further, and I really like the way they’re developing – especially Hillen. Reese is a like a Hillen Jr, (maybe). This provides an opp for guys like Eaton and Wiz to really step up and stand out, so maybe it’s not all bad…plus think of the boost he would bring if he comes back and this team is still in the running. You couldn’t ask for a bigger charge than to realize you got this far without your best player.
So that’s my silver lining….
A chance for Calvin
As bad as this is, and it’s very bad, there are a few silver linings. It is a chance for De Haan, also a lefty, to step up, make the roster, and show everyone why he was drafted #12. Also, if the Isles do really struggle this year as a result of possibly losing Streit for the season, it could result bin another high draft pick which would give Garth a chance to draft a defensive stud like David Musil who could become the Isles’ token Czech if Martinek isn’t resigned.
It will be ironic if there is some kind of silver lining like a draft stud. I figure the East bubble-to-dregs will be tight again this season, so if Streit’s loss does theoretically represent 2-3 wins, you could see that being the difference in multiple draft slots.
But we’ll cross that bridge when we get there. For now, just win (or try to win), baby.
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
Hey BC
He’s back!!! Wait a minute…Streit goes down and BC returns from silence…mmmmm come to think of it I’ve never seen the two of them in one place…
to add to the irony...
I am on LI recovering from surgery while my wife and daughter “patiently” wait for me back in BC.
Rest well!
Umlauts or no umlauts
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
THANKS
My downtime hopefully will not be nearly as long…but then I am not being paid $4 mil to be a #1 NHL defenseman!!! I am, however, trying to arrange a fundraiser with the Canucks and the Terrace River Kings for our church run homeless centre and soup kitchen in Terrace via long distance.
good luck on that BC
…both on your recovery and your charity work. Once you get it worked out, post the details in a Fan Shot or something.
82 days into my latest contract approval process
This means more Okposo on the point
I was really hoping that the Isles would work Okposo to the side of the net for the PP but with this loss it looks like he is going to be stuck on the point. However, I agree with BC about the possibility of DeHaan getting a shot. Sure he is small and possibly still under weight (I haven’t seen an official weight for him this year) but what if impresses in his preseason games again this year. Why not keep him around. He is Streit Jr anyway, right?
It is official, I am moving back to Long Island in about 2-3 weeks.
just an aside
I was chatting with a non-Islander fan (Leafs fan I think) a month or two ago. I questioned whether Calvin was ready to make the jump. He assured me that he watched him play on a regular basis last year and that he definitely was.
I hope no more Okposo on the point
I prefer him down low too, and think there are better options at the point (even Frans at the end of last season).
de Haan has reportedly filled out, by the way.
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
Souray, Bieksa, Hamonic
Souray- I was part of the small minority that was pro-Souray before Streit went down. He might be more worth the chance now. Don’t get me wrong; I know he is no replacement for Streit. There is no one available in the system or the market who could fully replace what he gave this club. But if we got the healthy Souray he would certainly save the power-play. We have the cap space the next 2 years. He can be had for a bag of pucks. If you are worried about his health then maybe we can get a conditional pick. A 3rd rounder or something if he plays less than 30 games.
Bieksa- from Vancouver is a possibility. They are still over the cap and he is the only one of their top 6 without a no trade clause. I’m not sure what the price would be but it is worth looking in to. He’s a solid 2 way Dman.
Hamonic. Man do I want to give him a shot. Don’t know if he’s ready. Coming in to camp I thought he should wait another year but the fire this guy plays with really makes me want to see him with the club.
Reese & Kohn are OK but I think it still leaves us too vulnerable. deHaan definately could use another year. If AMac can step up again we could get away with using BP talent but I’m not sold this is the best way to go.
Redden & Schneider- Don’t even go there.
i'm baaaaack...
god it’s been a while…
horrible news, even worse if we trade for a replacement, lets see if anyone wants to step up, a chance for the Wiz to really make a name, for a kid to earn time and shine, it probably means we will be lucky to finish the calendar year near NHL .500 but hey, it is what it is…
for certain tho, we’re going to have 7-8 d-men on board, healthy scratching rotations, trying to keep them all fresh after losing a guy who ate up 30 mins a game
a profound return... i still love sammy octoberfest :-)
wow… bad news gets tehm crawling out of the woodwork!
Welcome back!
My cup is 3/4 empty, How 'bout yours?
bob's back too!!
Welcome back!!! I’ve missed all of your funny picture posts…this wall has turned into a reunion of last years big contrubuters….wonder when David H. will pop up again. It’s like the first day of training camp!!!
We're going to break into Dave's Greek class
and drag him out by his εαρς
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
by Dominik on Sep 28, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Several Comments about this News
(1) What does this do to the Isles Cap situation? We were at or near the floor going into camp. If Streit’s 4.5 Million is on IR all season, does this mean we need to go spend more money to meet the floor? A question for some aspiring Capologist to answer.
(2) If the answer to Question (1) is “We need to spend more”, FOR GOD’S SAKE DO NOT get stupid with that. We do not want or need Sheldon Souray. When we were looking at the lineups before the Blue and Orange game, we were commenting about how we had 14 (count em, Fourteen) defensemen who were capable of playing in the NHL this season. If we’ve EVER had this kind of depth, even in the dynasty years, I don’t remember it. The Leafs fans on TSN are drooling about the possibility of sending Tomas Kaberle to us for all our young forward talent. If Bieksa can be gotten for a song (like the Wis trade, perhaps), I would consider that, but do not trade anything of value for a short term fix.
(3) As a corollary of (2), remember that DeHaan and Hamonic are the core of the D for the Contending Team (note the caps) that we are building here. Please do not panic and rush them to the Show just because Streit is down. If they are ready, then bring em along, but do not hurry them to fill a perceived hole.
(4) Keep your eyes on the prize, boys and girls. This is a bump in the road, no doubt, but it’s no reason to throw the Holy Hand Grenade.
by Nova Scotia Isles Fan on Sep 27, 2010 11:01 AM EDT reply actions
my take
De Haan probably is ready but probably would have spent another year in junior anyway if this hadn’t happened. Now he may get his chance.
Don’t you think that, of the two, Hamonic is more likely to get the nod? After all, he is NHL or AHL this season, while DeHaan is NHL or Junior.
by Nova Scotia Isles Fan on Sep 27, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
No
Hamonic will no doubt get ice time, but he is a defensive defenseman and he was likely to see ice time this season regardless. Streit’s injury makes it far more likely that De Haan may get a shot and really has no effect on Hamonic’s chances that I can see.
Hamonic=heavier shot, but no where near streit's yet, De Haan=better more accurate passer,
both honestly aren’t offensively ready to fill the streit spot. If we are honestly talking about fixing within, we’d be better off starting 2 out of the 3: Jurcina/a-mac/Gervais on defense and put a-mac or hillen with wiz on the 1st pp with 2 right handed shots. Both of those 2 should be more productive in streit’s pp role then de haan/hamonic right now. BUT I am a firm believer that this problem can not be near close to solved by inside the team. We need MAB or souray asap.
Go isles or Go home.
disagree
don’t want either one. And Pointblank has already noted De Haan practicing at the point. He’ll get a real shot.
CDH
BC, welcome back. Does anyone have info on Calvin De Haan’s weight at camp this year? I am curious as to how he filled out, as that has always been the biggest concern with him. All in all I wouldn’t be surprised if Calvin got a shot with the big team out of Camp this year. It seemed that the coaches really fell in love with his game last camp and the only thing holding him back was his size. He has more offensive upside than Hamonic (junior stats aside) and despite his small frame is no slouch in the defensive zone either. He projects as a polished all-around defender who can take on a number of roles. I see Hamonic as a defensive defensman with a big shot who will primarily be used as a shutdown guy but might get some time on the pp.
+10 to 15 lbs., maybe an inch too
According to CDH and the NHL reporter who interviewed him, he’s added 10 to 15 lbs., maybe even grown an inch, and looks bigger compared to last year this time.
I’d have a hard time believing he spent that much time in rehab without bulking up some. When you’re not allowed on the ice, you’ve got to channel that energy and frustration somewhere, so you put it toward the weights.
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
If you're not shootin' yer not tryin'
or something like that.
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
Last I heard, De Haan was ~185lbs.
I agree with all above. But De Haan’s not ready, especially considering pre-streit injury, Hamonic had the best chance out of any ahl player(not counting a-mac) to make the team. De Haan is still too small and young/immature(physically and all around) to fill a role without being more then a 20pt d-man who will have a rough time adjusting to nhl speed(less this) and nhl sized forwards. Remember, De Haan was still playing in oshawa, the nhl is a huge jump for him, and I expect him to play like a #6 d-man with offensive upside IF he makes the team. Any higher expectations out of him is crazy considering his size, skill-set, age, and other intangibles.
Go isles or Go home.
A good year for de haan will be a 4goals/20pts season with a negative +/-.
That’s way too much pressure for him, his body isn’t ready, and his all around game definitely isn’t. You know he is coming off an injury too right? If anyone thinks de haan can fill this gap right now better then a Gervais or Jurcina, I think they need to relook the whole situation.
Go isles or Go home.
One thing this does if the Isles want both Hamonic and de Haan
In theory, they can put de Haan on the team and put Hamonic in the AHL. If de Haan proves too green, they could send him back. The whole junior arrangement makes it more compelling to try de Haan first anyway, since there is no AHL option with him.
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
smart thinking Dom
If the Isles send de Haan back to juniors that’s it for the year; they can call and re-call Hamonic any time.
82 days into my latest contract approval process
Not a bad idea,
but I just don’t see either of them coming to close to bridging the gap made by a missing streit. As much I hate trading away for stop gaps, if Garth really wants the isles to make the playoffs this year, he needs to bring in a 10goal/40pt d-man for the powerplay. End of story, there is no other way around it other then by adding to the team from outside.
Go isles or Go home.
Cap
It has no bearing on the Islanders situation. A player on LTIR is still counted against the cap. The only thing that can happen is that the salary of the replacement player can be ‘written off’ so that the replacement does not push the team over the cap. Being that there is no way we are going over the cap this will mean nothing to the team. The full Streit contract still counts towards the minimum.
Correct. No impact
There is a bad meme out there that this drops the Isles below the floor (it doesn’t) and forces them to spend. In short, LTIR is designed to help cap-pushing teams in case of emergency, not cap-floor teams.
Rationale: If you’re at the floor, you’re a cheap or budget team already, and a guy going on LTIR does not save you the cost of his salary (you still have to pay it). There is actually a limit to how much you can go over your cap via the LTIR route, too, so you can’t automatically replace a $6 million guy with a $6 million guy.
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
but it’s no reason to throw the Holy Hand Grenade
technically, we CANT throw the holy hand grenade of antioch…
Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. see, without #2, we can’t get to 3 and therefore cannot throw it :-)
a profound return... i still love sammy octoberfest :-)
Hallelujah, sir
(3) As a corollary of (2), remember that DeHaan and Hamonic are the core of the D for the Contending Team (note the caps) that we are building here. Please do not panic and rush them to the Show just because Streit is down. If they are ready, then bring em along, but do not hurry them to fill a perceived hole.
(4) Keep your eyes on the prize, boys and girls. This is a bump in the road, no doubt, but it’s no reason to throw the Holy Hand Grenade.
All that and more.
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
MAB???
Sorry for the repeat , put comment into the wrong post. Bergeron is soft inevey way, except his slap shot on the PP. Could be cheap pick-up in the present crisis, bet he is being checked out by Snow.
Ginormous kick in the teeth
Damn that hurt. Thought we had a real shot to get in the playoffs w Mark. That being said, I am already over it. This team is still on the way up, this will give the younger D a real shot, and will force responsibility across many players now that Mark isn’t there. Our record may not be where I thought it was, but I believe something like this can make the Isles better in the long run. How’s that for a positive spin comrades….
This is terrible. Why couldn’t this happen last season when we were trying to Tank for Taylor Hall?
As for the material impact on the Islanders . . . meh. I think they were probably going to sit on the playoff bubble for a while and then likely not make it. That’s still possible. But if this means that Gervais seems more ice time, then —> OMG.
Honestly, I would have taken Seguin, not Hall – but hey, Nino should be just fine, he’s just a year further away. (And FWIW, Hall is on such a lousy roster they couldn’t send him to Junior even if he needed it. I hear that Magnus Paajarvi and Jordan Eberle are looking good out there, though.)
82 days into my latest contract approval process
We can somewhat have a chance to make the playoffs, but 2 things need to happen:
1. We MUST pick up a d-man to replace him on the 1st PP point. Whether it be Bergeron or Souray or another person who has THE streit slapshot we need to be effective. Honestly, there is no one that can fill that spot internally on the 1st PP, as others said that’s why Wiz was brought in, no one has close to the shot and passing skills streit had on the pp. I’d prefer Bergeron bc how cheap he comes, but he does take a roster spot, preferably as a botttom 3 forward with minimal non-pp minutes. Give Bergeron his 4ppm/gm and 4minutes or less of 5 on 5 as a forward so he doesn’t hurt our d. BUT NO QUESTION HE FILLS STREITS ROLE as A 40pts goal scoring d-man.
Souray isn’t a bad option either. Pending he can pass a physical and shoot hard still, he would be a monster. Thing with him is, he’s going to be playing bottom 2 minutes off the PP so he isn’t a defensive liability. Souray can definitely play the limited role with gusto. He still should be a 10goal/30pts pp specialist at the worst, and an ok replacement for streit, but he gets paid like a king for 2 years in this role, but we don’t have many choices out there.
Other then these 2, everyone else comes WAY TOO EXPENSIVE and aren’t worth it. But beggars can’t be choosers, and if garth wants any possibility of playoff hopes, this BIG hole needs to be filled.
2. 80-90% of our forwards and d-men need to meet pre-season expectations. And Rollie needs to play good, if not we need DP to step it up, and if not we need lawson to step it up or have to make another big trade just to keep us in playoff contention.
We definitely have a chance to fill this hole and still have most things go right to make a 7th or 8th spot. BUT this whole process of us having a shot to make the playoffs BEGINS with Garth bringing in a suitable replacement to fill streit’s role. No Bergeron/Souray like 10goal/35-40pt+ d-man in streit’s spot on the pp and more, I believe our chances of making the playoffs would drop from 45% to 20% with everyone else playing up to expectations.
Go isles or Go home.
Bieksa might be cheap enough
I mentioned him earlier. Vancouver is over the cap by more than 2 million right now. They have 6 defensemen signed for over 3mil. Bieksa is the only one without a no trade clause. In the 2 seasons he was able to play fully he scored over 10 goals each. He’s effective in both zones. He’s not afraid to fight either. He’s not a full replacement but he would be top 4 on this team. I don’t know if we could get him Wiz cheap (depends how despirate the Nucks get) but he should be cheap enough (C list prospect, pair of late round picks). With the off season acquisitions they made he is expendible and the cap means he needs to go within the next week and a half. Unless there are a lot of other buyers (unlikely) the deal should be palatable.
Bieksa,
is not going to come close to cheap with his production, age, and livable salary. They do have a lot of scoring d-men now, but I just don’t see them giving up a 10goal/40pt d-man for less then a 2nd round pick and/or a somewhat impacting prospect. MAB and Souray are much cheaper to fill the hole fine.
Go isles or Go home.
Vancouver has other injuries, too
I’m not sure Bieksa is as “available” as he appeared earlier in the summer.
I don’t really want to add anyone (well, if we specifically just wanted a PP cannon for cheap I could add MAB), but I’m open to it. What I’m not open to is having to give up anything meaningful, which I think Bieksa might require. I also think Bieksa like Souray has lost a lot, but that’s my own subjective and only half-informed opinion.
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
Hamonic has all the tools but still seems to miss a ton of assignments in his own end. He did it in the rookie games and again in the last scrimmage.
.
To me, you have to go with de Haan. He really impressed me in the scrimmage, I’ve read some good scouting reports on him and I think he’s “ready enough” to step in and see if he can make an impact. There’s at least a chance that he comes in and plays really well.
.
I trust the Isles to do what’s best here. This front office has been very methodical, prudent, and opportunistic the last 2-3 years.
.
Basically I’m trying to convince myself I’ll get more de Haan and less Gervais.
Bruno
Even with this news, that cannot give more ice time to Bruno. He scares the crap out of me every time he touches the puck and has not made a good breakout pass in two years! I would rather have MAB I think and his defensive liabilities..LOL
DeHaan might be ready with the added bulk, I think the smart move is to send Hamonic back for more seasoning. More ice time for Milan and Eaton than originally thought might be in order.
I would not even touch Souray, unless its on re-entry waivers for half the price. Then I think its a no brainer. Would absolutely LOVE to add Bieska, but think he would be too expensive in terms of compensation going back to Vancouver.
Just read that the Isles might call the Devils about Salvador or White. DONT DO IT! Let Lou sink in his salary cap mess that he tried to circumvent.
Just read that the Isles might call the Devils about Salvador or White. DONT DO IT! Let Lou sink in his salary cap mess that he tried to circumvent.
Yeah, that’s the thing. Both are still solid NHL blueliners, but do they offer upside that in-house prospects don’t? I don’t think so. If we were bulking up for a major playoff run I’d be more interested, but at this point I don’t want to give up assets to find out that Salvador/White is a sorta-kinda pricier older upgrade of AMac.
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
RSH
If you YouTube yourself some Schremp, you’ll notice that he played some type of point man hybrid for his junior and AHL teams. If he can play point (and I have no doubt that he can be a puck distributor), then all we need to look at is a defensive body which one of the kids (MacDonald/Hamonic can probably handle. Also gets another skill guy on the ice more often.
by Keith Quinn on Sep 27, 2010 1:45 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
He makes me nervous there at the NHL level
(Not that we’ve seen him there at the NHL level, but…). His kind of creativity is awesome, and even necessary on the PP, but I just imagine it blowing up in our faces too many times at the point. Down low, you’ve given up possession and maybe cost yourself time in the zone. At the blueline, it’s a shorthanded breakaway. I don’t know if I’d want to put that burden on him — can you imagine how quickly fans turn on him after a couple of bad breaks? — when he could also work magic down low.
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
I hear you but...
A couple of things:
I think you are stuck on the “defensive responsibility” thing which applies to his play as a center, not as a power play point man.
He actually has some experience doing it. I don’t think KO or DW really did prior to practicing it at the NHL level.
RSH is not going to be down low that much anyway because PP1 will be centered by JT and as you (I think it was you) noted the other day, PP2 usually gets the remaining time after PP 1 is gassed. PP 2 can be Franz, Bailey Comeau.
Will he really be any less defensively responsible than MAB? Also, you are essentially fielding 4 forwards anyway, his D pairing can be a stay at home who anticipates the opposing breakaway. I would like to see them try it. His shot is sick. He gets 1 timers off quick (hull style…not equal, but style and at that scrimmage the other day, it was hard.
by Keith Quinn on Sep 27, 2010 2:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
In this case
I’m not really thinking about his D responsibility in terms of center, but rather decision-making at the point. Streit, Hillen, Weight, even Okposo and Frans all have that creativity but with an undercurrent of caution, of fundamentals, that they use to decide how much risk is too much risk at the point.
Schremp just strikes me, from watching him, as the type whose “Hell, let’s try this move” instinct is very strong — and that’s a big part of his game. He is still the type to try a fancy move at the opponent’s blueline. It’s unfair of me to pass judgment on him without seeing him in the role (outside of juniors, where you frankly can get away with SO much more than in the NHL), but I don’t know if he has that caution in his game, or whether it’d be even good for him to try it. (Yeah, in this instance I could see him being less savvy than MAB with those decisions.)
Just my hunch. Again, not fair of me to rule it out without trying it. His one-timers were indeed blistering the other night (though wide). I’d actually rather see him there than KO again; I just have doubts on whether it’d work out, particularly if Wiz is as prone to shoot into shinguards as Hawks and Ducks fans claim.
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
Im with you
and the guy below us at the same time! We are officially at an “ahh WTF?” moment! It could be and probably would be feast or famine, but definitely cheaper and would allow us to develop young guys instead of giving some schlock a shot b/c he has a hard shot. (Looks out of the corner of his eye at MAB).
Interesting idea
Now’s the time to try it. We have 2 weeks to see if it can work.
We need a cannon passer and cannon shooter from the point,
not a tricky guy with quick hands. No way in hell I want Schremp on the point, I’d rather Gervais there in all honesty.
Go isles or Go home.
It's funny
I agree with you on his shot. But man I watch those videos and think 1) Wow that’s a lot of 5-on-3s, and 2) Man those junior PK units are horrible! I guess that was the London PP unit that racked up 8,000 points or something silly too. Can’t fault them for dominating the competition.
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
His shot is nice....from the faceoff circles,
he is just not built to be a hard slapper and passer from the o-blue line that we need to be effective on the pp. Schremp is great from the faceoff circles and down low, but around the blue line he just doesn’t have the power or even instincts to play it effectively and keep penalty killers honest on him for his slapper. I like schremp on the pp, just no way as a point man.
Go isles or Go home.
Idea
If we are looking for a hard shot Alexei Semenov has just been released from Rangers Camp. 105 shot. 6’6". It’s Zdeno without the skill! Could be worth bringing in to camp though.
Definitely worth a try-out, not sure how much he has though given his last stats 2yrs with the sharks
Go isles or Go home.
He was in Russia
He rejected a deal with the Rangers at the time and went to the KHL for more money. Came back to Rangers camp this year.
I made this same exact comment last year. Then they tried Frans on the point and it seemed to have some measure of success.
As they employ a single point, half-board centric PP, I don’ t think they are locked in, in terms of having two defenders on the ice. they are just trying to put their best five offensive players.
I’d even go as far as to say that Weight (much more than Okposo) was the PP QB over streit when they were on the ice together. I didn’t see KO as successful in that role, but frans was, and I think RSH would have been very good as well… but that’s just speculation.
My cup is 3/4 empty, How 'bout yours?
Oy
Oy…
I mean I know we have the extra dmen and some promising guys, but you feel bad cause he is obviously far and away our best dman. Then you add in how he’s been playing the last two years, and you feel bad that there was a chance for this team to make the playoffs and he can’t be a part of it after playing so hard.
Trevor Gillies: Giving an all new meaning to "Mustache Ride"
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Very well said,
I don’t know who has it worse off. The isles or streit for having to sit on the sideline all year and not able to lend a hand at all for the team.
Go isles or Go home.
by OzzyFan on Sep 27, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
OT for the jersey hounds
Apparently nhl.com is running free customization on jerseys you buy there, today only. I only mention it because, best I can tell, that ends up being cheaper than the average jersey + custom hosejob.
(I just saw this in comments at another site, so there are no strings or ads attached on my end.)
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
gross…
anyone know what # nino’s leaning on?
a profound return... i still love sammy octoberfest :-)
I wonder if #25 is the number
Seems like if you’re a camp longshot you get a higher number, but he has #25 at present. And his junior number (#22) is taken by some guy I can’t remember. #23 too (some other guy), and Marti has #24, so maybe that’s how they got there. 25 sorta looks like 22 doing 69.
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
25 sorta looks like 22 doing 69.
LMAO!
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Sep 28, 2010 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Did I hear that they were going to sell new customized jersey’s for $99 at the coliseum on Sat during the scrimmage?
Well… I just checked and they are $99 today with free customization… HELLO, MATT MARTIN JERSEY!
My cup is 3/4 empty, How 'bout yours?
I see my future
Mrs. LHH: “I thought you were fixing the front door?”
Me: “This NIELSEN jersey will last longer and give me greater joy.”
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
by Dominik on Sep 27, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Although this sucks – supporting the Isles gives you that ability to be always hoping that something good comes of the worst things. Here’s to hoping that there is a cloning loophole when a player is injured.
Also, I hope the media doesn’t seize on the pun-worthiness of Streit’s name by using headlines like ‘Isles in Dire Streits’ or the like.
I hope the media doesn’t seize on the pun-worthiness of Streit’s name by using headlines like ‘Isles in Dire Streits’ or the like.
If the NY Post saw that they would actually start covering the Islanders just to be able to use it.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Sep 28, 2010 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Can this franchise ever catch a break?
Hilarious. I’d say you’re still coming out on top with 4 consecutive Cups. The Caps have been tanking post-seasons to underwhelming competition for literally my entire life. Well, that’s not entirely true, they hadn’t ever made the playoffs until I was 3 or 4 years old. Granted, Milbury did a number and you’re still recovering, but at least he wasn’t Isaiah Thomas, right?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Oh, and I feel terrible for Streit. I’ve really enjoyed watching him come out of nowhere and prove people wrong the last couple years. I thought his Olympics was downright incredible and anyone that doubts him after that is either ignorant or insane.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
The laugh's on us lately
Welcome to the board, FaB! It’s nice to be reminded of the good old days; we just want some good new days as well.
Granted, Milbury did a number and you’re still recovering, but at least he wasn’t Isaiah Thomas, right?
Welllllll…. considering that he almost actively tried to get fired in the late 90’s? Let’s move on.
I’d say you’re still coming out on top with 4 consecutive Cups.
Fair enough… but it was also 27 years ago. The reason Rags fans accuse us of living in the past is that it’s kind of true – a high school senior today would not have been born when the Isles made their seminfinals run in ‘93, even. There are college graduates out there whose big Isles memory is Bates’ penalty shot in 2002, in an opening-round series the Isles wound up losing. Frankly you guys have had the better of things recently, with a Finals appearance, AO8, Kolzig, and a lot of promise for the next few seasons. You’re a lock for a top-three seed this season, probably next as well – you need to get the hot goalie one of these runs and you’ll go far.
Quickly moving up the depth chart
Then I can just point to the playoffs. I can do it in the 80s. You surely remember Easter. I can do it in the 90s with what felt like record breaking numbers of losses after leading series 3-1 (and the start of being dominated by PIT). I can do it into the 2000s with the horrible Jagr experiment. And now we can proudly claim to be the only team to ever be eliminated on home ice 3 straight seasons. I can appreciate that you’d like more recent success, but at least you have banners that matter.
I think the Knicks don’t have a 1st until 2014 or something insane like that. That’s when I realized how terrible Isaiah was.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
at least you have banners that matter.
Damn, the WNBA attendance banner isn’t even safe on a Mark Streit post!
Anyway, if we’re comparing Isles history to the Caps, Isaiah Thomas, or the reasonable expectations of any sane fan, we’ve been well short on breaks since 1993. (Actually, now that I think of it, even that year some Caps legend committed one of the most cowardly acts I’ve ever seen on ice, leading to a pretty damn bad break.) I guess the Dubie shootout heroics were a nice break — making the playoffs on a skills competition pokecheck? Crazy. — but of course it only came about because Franchise Goalie was beginning a series of unfortunate events.
Plenty of pain to go around. Reassemble the Patrick Division!
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
Definitely reassemble the Patrick Division! I’ve been on that forever. Going back to that format and away from the regional format is one of the easiest ways to get around the fact that the teams are all so heavily located in the Northeast. And getting back in touch with history would be nice.
If and when the Caps win a Cup I’ll come off my position, but until then the Isles fans have led a charmed existence compared to Caps fans.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
by Rob Parker on Sep 28, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If the Caps win a Cup, it will certainly have been well-earned for the longtime fans.
Fandom is always a funny concept. Are Isles fans who are 20-25 years old “charmed” now? I identify with some team histories from before I was born/could speak, but only to a point — and probably mostly contained by the stories my father told me or pointed me to.
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
That’s definitely a fair point. I am a Steelers fan but until the Big Ben years all I had known was misery despite the historic teams of the ‘70s. Anyone my age or younger probably doesn’t even have any memories of the Isles Cup teams, so, yeah, the only thing they really know is pain.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Karma deficit
Sorry you guys have had it rough as well but as far as the Caps go, I believe you still have a few more futile decades in store for you as a result Dale Hunter’s hit on Turgeon in ’93
Yeah, I’m pretty sure this is an accurate representation of how sports works. You guys must be sure glad there’s never been a dirty play carried out in a NYI uniform.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
There's actually a little chant we're used to hearing from MSG ...
musical interlude … %otvin $uck$, but the idea of being a fan is to turn a blind eye towards your own indiscretions and hate the other guy’s. Besides our number 5 isn’t coming down anytime soon so I insist it wasn’t his fault; It was bad MSG ice.
Heh, if only it were an actual play I could somehow rationalize it to some minimal degree. As a petulant post-whistle reaction to being scored on, though, it enters a realm, a line crossed, that I can’t recall seeing elsewhere in pro sports.
Not related, but reminiscent of same: I was always awed by the free shot D-men used to be allowed on forwards the instant after they scored. There is this charade of plausible innocence at play, as if “oh, I’d no idea play stopped” that is total B.S., and it used to be tolerated. (Not comparing that to Hunter’s, which was far later and far worse.)
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
Hunter’s is definitely one of the worst cheap shots I’ve ever seen. I’m almost embarrassed to watch it. Do you remember the shot Sutter laid on Kariya that gave Kariya his first big concussion problem? That was definitely one of those “oh I didn’t know the goal was scored” type of plays. I’m not sure how that absolves the fact that it was a crosscheck to the face, though…
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Hunter’s is definitely one of the worst cheap shots I’ve ever seen. I’m almost embarrassed to watch it.
Almost? I dont see how you couldnt be embarrassed to watch it. I know Im embarrassed of Simons skate stomp, and I liked the guy. And that wasnt jack shit compared to that horrible career and organization-altering low class blow. Its honestly the shittiest thing Ive ever seen someone do to a player. IMO its worse than what Bertuzzi did because, as messed up as that was, at least in that split second there seemed to be a reason. There is no reason for what Hunter did to Turgeon. None.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Sep 28, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not embarrassed because I literally had nothing to do with it. That’s pretty much my reasoning. I don’t identify myself personally with the activities of pro athletes. I don’t care that some athletes are assholes. I’d prefer everyone be a good human, but that’s not reality.
There was no reason for what Bertuzzi did, and I believe it was easily worse than what Hunter did. Not that either are great, but there is no level of analysis where Bert was more justified or less vile than Hunter. What was the split second reason for Bert? That Moore had thrown a hit in a previous game, and that Moore had already fought to answer for it? At least Hunter had the emotional pain of knowing he was just eliminated from the playoffs. And don’t forget Simon’s baseball swing to Hollweg’s face. Shit happens.
I also disagree that Hunter’s act was “organization-altering.” I’m pretty sure Milbury did more to kill the Islanders than Hunter ever did.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I also disagree that Hunter’s act was "organization-altering.
You can disagree all you want, but that hit, and what it did to Pierre, forever changed the New York Islanders.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Sep 28, 2010 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you’re overvaluing Pierre Turgeon and underestimating the damage that was coming from Milbury regardless. Unless you think that was directly related to Milbury getting the job I just don’t see it. I’d like to hear that argument.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Not a clear argument to make
However, a healthy Pierre Turgeon would have been a great help against Montreal… and had the Isles extended or even won that series and made the finals, it would have been far harder to dump Turgeon to the Canadiens for Kirk Muller. A never-hurt Turgeon maybe has a better 1993-94 season, convincing Don Maloney to hold onto him as an asset, pairing him with Zigmund Palffy (that would have been a sight to see). Maybe a team that seems closer to contention with a bona-fide superstar scorer is not torn down for no reason, and the chain reaction of trades that followed never has to happen. Most importantly, though – if none of that happens, then Don Maloney is never run out of town, and maybe Milbury never steps foot on Long Island.
It MAY have turned out far differently; it may not have. In one of the “what if” threads a while back, Dominik suggested that with Turgeon healthy, the Isles may never have beaten Pittsburgh because the Penguins would have taken them more seriously. But maybe instead the Isles close them out in five games and are rested for Montreal. Maybe Turgeon snipes Roy a couple of times in those OT games and the legend of St. Patrick never gets going. Maybe the Isles snag HIM instead of Muller because the Habs think he’s just a choker. Who knows?
Maybe with a healthy Turgeon pairing with Palffy, the team is more interesting to follow, and better ticket sales means a bigger budget. Milbury, for all his faults, is a great judge of talent. When he finally did have money to work with he put together a strong team on very short notice.* Maybe he never has to cut bait so quickly on good prospects, and now you’re looking at Turgeon-Palffy-Bertuzzi on the top line; Ferraro centering a dangerous second unit with Steve Thomas and Derek King; Benoit Hogue still on the third line; a defense with a properly-developed McCabe, Berard, and Brewer; maybe they keep Matheiu Schneider, Zdeno Chara, and Darius Kasparaitis (and MM always says that he regrets that trade above all else).
It could have been very different indeed.
- And here’s why we get a little nuts around the Lighthouse – the ‘02 team was ALSO shot down through the deliberate use of dirty hits – Roberts on Jonsson, Tucker on Peca, and Corson on anything that moved. We’re very suspicious when other teams’ elbows and sticks get aimed high.
Quickly moving up the depth chart
I agree to a point,
but based on what Milbury did and the decision makers, Turgeon would probably have been traded like palffy. Not a thought in my mind says turgeon would have stayed given milbury’s history and the team’s “budget” so to speak. But with Turgeon we should have been a repeat playoff team for another year or 2 at least. I don’t think we lost a stanley cup with him gone, but definitely a playoff year or 2.
Go isles or Go home.
Baloney
That’s an awful lot of maybes. I can accept that losing Turgeon hurt the Isles in the ‘93 season. But he had 94 points the next year, without playing a full schedule. He could have had more, but the Isles still made the playoffs. Turgeon also had several more high scoring seasons and played all the way until 2007. The hit didn’t ruin his career. The Isles made the playoffs the next year and (for the second straight year) lost to the eventual Cup champs. They didn’t just fall off the map. It was the terrible ‘94-’95 season (in which Turgeon wasn’t particularly good, and certainly that cannot be blamed on Hunter as he had already recovered) that led to the changes.
Milbury was an excellent judge of talent? For real? Need I remind you of his trade record?
How about this for a crazy conspiracy theory. I blame Ulf Samuelsson for the Isles woes. Ulf throws that dirty knee-on-knee hit to Cam Neely. Neely plays 22 games over the next two years (compared to Turgeon who played 118 over the next two) and his career was never the same. Losing Neely threw the B’s into a tailspin, causing… MIKE MILBURY to get fired and ultimately land on LI. Thus, Cam Neely is as much to blame as Dale Hunter.
Unfortunately this is so late nobody will see it.
/lawyered
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Suter on Kariya
Oh man, was that in a Canada Cup or something? (Actually, maybe I’m thinking of Suter on Gretzky there.) I know I’ve seen it but only a time or two on blurry highlights or something. That takes the “whoops…play stopped?” to the absurd extreme.
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
Suter on Kariya was in the NHL. After re-watching it happened a little closer to the goal than I had remembered, but it’s still a pretty terrible hit. Even if Kariya had the puck it’s a dirty hit.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Kariya's been smacked around like a rag doll his whole nhl career.
I feel bad for the guy. He actually was a great hockey player too.
Go isles or Go home.
Definitely. I’ll be shocked if he returns. Between the Suter hit and the Stevens hit that’s two of the most severe head shots I’ve seen. I know he wants to win a Cup, but is it really worth continuing to punish his brain?
(Related, check out Elliotte Friedman’s piece on Laperriere.)
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Nice read,
Lappy is a hell of a team player. Gotta love the type of player’s that will do whatever whenever to help their team try to win. Whether fighting, throwing the body around, or diving in front of pucks. Those men are the legends that never mark up the stat-sheet with big numbers, but always have a big place in our hearts. Stevens later in his career was this guy, Witt was this guy, Lappy is this guy, volchenkov is this guy(aside from the fighting), and more. I live to watch those players and have them on my team. What a joy it is to watch them.
Go isles or Go home.
Yeah those guys always tend to be fan favorites. It’s just sad (all except for the part that it hurt the Flyers) that he hurt himself blocking a shot in garbage time. That game and series was over and yet he still went head first to block a shot. I admire the guts, but not necessarily the judgment.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Lappy
That just sucks, sucks, sucks. Never minded him because he was one of those kids who arrived kind of stupid and wild but really grew and learned that role to be more effective (and gutsy as ever) without killing his team.
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo were important to this team.
I’d say you’re still coming out on top with 4 consecutive Cups.
True, though one wonders when the debt for those is finally paid off. Considering that was a generation ago, and the interim has seen a number of crooks run the franchise, and you can understand the pain.
But I know not to get into a “woe is us” war with a Caps fan. I’ve felt bad for the Caps going all the way back to the ’80s, when they had some damn fine teams that league history has practically forgotten.
Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.
I actually think the 4 Cups is the only reason the NYI have a chance at staying on LI. There is definitely a devoted fanbase that grew up watching that dynasty and if that entire generation hadn’t been so cemented the team may have already wilted away following the Milbury debacle. I constantly have to correct people that don’t understand how good a fanbase the Isles have on LI. Attendance is not the same as fan support, especially when you are talking about a team that has been locked in the basement.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Agreed,
the 4 cups is what keeps them on LI and is the main reason for their huge fanbase, along with some promising and fun prospects to watch. If it wasn’t for the huge fanbase, they’d be in Canada or KC or who knows where by now. Hopefully some winning, a playoff run, and a big name player coming here will help the attendance. But, a new stadium would no question help attendance greatly, problem is we don’t have a signed deal for that yet.
Go isles or Go home.
I’d also say the 4 Cups are probably a big part of the growing strength of LI hockey. It wasn’t very reputable when I was growing up, but now you have Scuderi, Komisarek, Higgins, Gilroy, Nystrom all playing in the NHL, and some other guys that had success in the NCAA or minor league levels. I see a parallel between that rise in Long Island hockey (approximately 20 years after the NYI dynasty) and the rise in hockey in Southern California (approximately 20 years after Gretzky was traded to LAK). I think that’s a big thing the anti-sun-belt crowd is overlooking, that it takes decades before you see the product of putting hockey roots in a community.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Amen
I think that’s a big thing the anti-sun-belt crowd is overlooking, that it takes decades before you see the product of putting hockey roots in a community.
Something bailout owners like Huizenga and Disney overlooked, too. This stuff doesn’t happen overnight.
That’s one area I don’t fault Bettman and his BOG puppetmasters: If you really want to expand the league’s footprint, you’re right not to bail on new markets after a decade. (Of course, if you really want to expand the league’s footprint, you should choose better partners to own those teams.)
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo were important to this team.
The idea of the sun-belt strategy wasn’t bad, but in many places the execution was. I think the biggest problem with the NHL right now isn’t a lack of player talent or fan interest, but a lack of quality owners.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Thats a great point.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Sep 30, 2010 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed
One problem is that it was so fast… in effect, we had a hockey bubble, and expansion clubs from Ottawa to Phoenix have very nearly wound up in a sheriff’s sale. (Lot 136: slightly-used Zamboni. Also comes with Martin Gerber. Do I hear $50,000? Forty?)
Another problem was that hockey has always been gate-driven, unlike the other major leagues, whose revenue derives mostly from television contracts. Before a single down is played, NFL payrolls for the year are covered – the gate receipts and concessions are pure gravy. Contrast that to the NHL, where Minnesota can’t clear a profit even though they’ve sold out the building every night!
A little more caution could have resulted in a better revenue stream from the broadcast rights, divided fewer ways until the league proved it could handle this many teams. The newer franchises would have had secure financial footing while they grew their fan base. With HD and cheaper large-screen TVs at home, the game is much easier to follow on television now, so a patient approach would have paid off for the networks as well – they have a more viable product. NOW would have been the time to add the last two or four teams; to move from regional cable networks and a “game of the week” on a national carrier, to a league-run network or a full-time national broadcast deal.
Quickly moving up the depth chart
Lack of quality owners
100% yes. Maybe there just aren’t quality owners available in hockey (i.e. rabid fans with the requisite billions). Or maybe they’ve stayed away because until 2006 [or insert your own moment here] they didn’t think the financials work.
But to me that was the biggest fault in the rush to the South: The ownership pool has been poor. Though I can’t fault the BOG for rushing to take Disney and Blockbuster money for Anaheim and Florida at the time; at the time, those weren’t money sources you wanted to say no to.
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo were important to this team.
Paging Calvin de Haan, Paging Calvin de Haan...
Calvin de Haan, your future’s calling…
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1979-80
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May 24, 1980: Tonelli to Nystrom. At long last, the steady build of the New York Islanders from expansion doormat to surprise semifinalist to annual contender reaches the promised land: Buoyed by a late season trade for Butch Goring that gave the team the depth up the middle GM Bill Torrey had been seeking, the Islanders knock off the Philadelphia Flyers in six games.
The victory justified the faith in coach Al Arbour who guided them from their second season to their first Stanley Cup seven seasons later. The Islanders would not be the first expansion team to win the Stanley Cup, but they would be the only one capable of a dynasty.
1980-81
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May 21, 1981: This time it was much easier. After falling to "only" 91 points in the 1979-80 season, the Islanders returned to their division title tradition, piling up 110 points -- a whole 13 points over second-place Philadelphia.
Between the quarterfinals (where they beat the upstart Oilers in six games) and the finals, the Islanders reeled off eight consecutive wins -- with a four-game sweep of archrival Rangers in between. As they defeated the Minnesota North Stars in five games for their second Cup, their goal difference in the final was a combined +10.
1981-82
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May 16, 1982: Another year, another landslide title. The Islanders won the Patrick Division by a whopping 26 points over the second-place Rangers, and were seven points clear of their nearest competition for the President's Trophy, the still-not-quite-ripe Edmonton Oilers.
A first-round scare against the Pittsburgh Penguins turned in the Isles' favor thanks to John Tonelli's heroics, and a true dynasty was on its way: Past the Rangers in six games, then an eight-game sweep of the Quebec Nordiques and Vancouver Canucks to run away with the Stanley Cup.
1982-83
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May 17, 1983: Not so fast, whipper-snappers. The Edmonton Oilers' steadily rising challenge for league supremacy took them all the way to the finals for the first time, where the New York Islanders summarily dispatched them in a four-game sweep. For the Islanders, the Dynasty was secured. For the Oilers, it was a powerful lesson in where talent ends and the demands of playoff hockey begin.
Four years, four Cups, 16 consecutive playoff series wins (a record that would grow to 19 until the rematch with the Oilers the following year). Mike Bossy scored 60 goals yet again, and Wayne Gretzky became acquainted with Billy Smith's crease.
