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SBN/NHL Mock Expansion: the re-alignment assignment

During our expansion and protection discussions, we briefly touched on where the league would actually put two extra teams once they had them - not just the cities, but the divisions and conferences. For fun, Dom and I kicked around an idea that we've apparently worked on separately for years - four 8-team divisions.

Because the southern and western teams are much more sparse it becomes a challenge to get together groups of eight without putting them at a severe disadvantage compared to the northeastern teams. For example, it doesn’t work to just re-assemble the classic '80s divisions and add the extra teams. (Pity, that.) Who gets nudged to a less-convenient location?

Boston, for example, makes much more sense playing the Flyers, Rangers, and Isles six times a year, than Ottawa and Toronto.  The Bruins and Canadiens need each other to hate. So Boston-Montreal-Rags-Isles-Philly-Jersey, plus… well, Quebec?  Toronto and Buffalo, for the old Adams Division purists?  Where do the Penguins go?

Based on this and our similar theories for NHL '93-'94 lineups, I suspect that Dom and I are long-lost twins or something.  But we want to let everyone else in on the fun as well.  With Winnipeg and Quebec now in the fold, the league has to re-align - how do you think it should get done?

Star-divide

 

The best I can do is:
Patrick: Islanders, Rangers, Jersey, Philly, Boston, Montreal, Buffalo, Quebec
Norris: Toronto, Ottawa, Columbus, Detroit, Minnesota, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Washington
Adams: Tampa, Florida, Atlanta, Carolina, Nashville, St Louis, Colorado, Dallas
Smythe: Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, San Jose, Anaheim, LA, Phoenix

 

The Smythe is the only one that I can’t see a quibble with… the other three all have problems. Washington doesn’t really fit anywhere easily. Colorado fits a few different places. The new Norris is kind of sprawling and awkward.  (When I first did this with Seattle and Hamilton instead of Winnipeg and Quebec, I had Washington back in the Patrick, with Hamilton taking their place in the Norris, both to take advantage of the natural Tor-Ham rivalry and to make up for splitting the Leafs and Sabres.  Montreal is sort of isolated in that example, but they were always bitter rivals with Boston so it wasn’t too bad.)

Having both nation’s capital cities in the same division is cute, but hardly essential.  You could swap Washington for Quebec if you had to, or even Pittsburgh for Quebec.  I prefer the above because Pittsburgh has more of a natural rivalry with Ohio and midwestern teams, instead of the East Coast teams.  It’s also fun to see the Wings and Pens in the same division after having contested the Cup from different conferences in the past.  The conferences would be the Patrick and Adams in the Prince of Wales conference, and Norris and Smythe in the Clarence Campbell conference -- just like God and the 1980’s intended.

Now – how would we get these teams into a schedule?

The simplest schedule is four games within the division and home-and-home against everyone else.  That’s 28 divisional games, 16 conference games, and 32 out-of-conference games, for a total of 76.  The less-packed schedule helps with things like travel times and ensures that fans get a chance to see everyone in the league at least once a year, live.  The downside, though, is obvious – three fewer home games per year, angry owners, and thus less revenue.  Not all that likely.

There are a couple of schemes you could use to get back up to 82 games, both a bit confusing.

PLAN B: six games against your division and two games against the rest of the conference; then, you’d alternate playing home-and-home and just a single game against the other two divisions.  IOW, the Isles would get 42 games in the division, 16 against the Adams, 16 against the Norris, but only 8 against the Smythe.  The next season, they’d then play only 8 against the Norris and 16 against the Smythe.  Either way, that’s 82 games. It wouldn’t be too hard to make sure that you alternated home and away games against those divisions so it would even out in the end.

PLAN C: this takes the "alternating schedule" bit and uses it within the division.  You keep your home-and-homes against the other three divisions (48 games) and four games against everyone else in the division (28 games), and then you make up the other six games with three additional home-and-home sets against three of your divisional opponents.  You can either rotate them from year-to-year the way baseball rotates the interleague matchups, or go with two extra games against certain arch-rivals every year.

I far prefer Plan B.  It means less cross-country travel for everyone, and it also keeps people from mentally dividing the divisions into two sets of four, who always play each other more often – the whole point of the exercise is to create four 8-team divisions, not a de-facto eight 4-team divisions.  However, abuse mockery ahem, constructive criticism is always welcome in the comments!

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If you really want to be more fan friendly, then dump the classic names and go with regional names.
North-East-South and West would be an easier way to name the divisions.

  It might be easier to convert non fans if you don’t have to spend an hour explaining Norris and Smythe after you just finished explaining “Lord Stanley”’e Cup. Not many current fans even have a clue who 3 out of 4 of those guys are. I do know a descendant of Patrick was associated with the Rangers and I think even the Pens.

Get out of the sticks, Charles, move to Queens!! Come, Get some respect a Professional team deserves!!

by Martys301 on Sep 2, 2010 6:47 PM EDT reply actions  

Disagree

I’ve never met anyone but a hockey-hater who ever said, “What the hell is the Smythe anyway?” To me those names always held more charm — and more identity. When I think of ‘80s-era Smythe, Norris, Adams, Patrick — I know what kind of game I’m in for.

And the new die-hards who never had an association with those names, I figure they’ll develop ones quickly when they don’t sound exactly like the divisions in baseball, football and basketball.

Lighthouse Hockey: An always-open repair shop for mikb's sarcasm module.

by Dominik on Sep 2, 2010 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

this

re-naming the divisions was one of the stupidest things the NHL ever did. It was one of the awesome things that made hockey unique, and now they look like they’re just copying their big brother leagues.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Sep 3, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

big brothers??!?

Hmph. The NHL is older than both the NBA and NFL, and major league baseball didn’t split into divisions until 1969. This naming thing was Hockey’s idea, first to last – all those other cats wimped out on their conference and division names, and Bettman watered us down to be like them!

The unique names added to the overall character of the league, and scrapping them was a clear sign that Bettman and Co. think of the league as just another thing – in itself maybe not so much, but taken hand-in-hand with the sudden huge expansion, the pity points, the ticket prices and new arenas and work stops… it tells. The man needs a clue-by-four.

Heck, those guys should have copied US. How awesome would the Lombardi Conference, the Doubleday Division, and the Mikan Conference sound? Everyone knows Tampa is in the Southeastern US, dammit.

82 days into my latest contract approval process

by mikb on Sep 3, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just meant big brother in terms of revenue/media exposure

And, I agree, the other sports should have copied the NHL. I mean, technically MLB still has named leagues, with the National and the American, but the conferences are stupidly split into geographical regions.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Sep 3, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

sorry

I did know what you meant, but I was too busy ranting, as usual. Didn’t mean to lump you in!

82 days into my latest contract approval process

by mikb on Sep 3, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you really want to be more fan friendly, then dump the classic names and go with regional names.

But thats what they have now- and I dont think its fan friendly at all, I think its boring. But more importantly, its not very accurate. Nearly all divisions have a team or two that do not actually reside in the area their division is named. Washington in the south east? Um, no. Tennessee NOT in the south or the east, but in the central? Thats just dumb. If the divisions we have now continued to exist but simply werent labeled with area-centric names, they would make a lot mroe sense.

Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)

by TheMetalChick on Sep 3, 2010 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

In fairness, there’s a lot of overlapping in each region of the United States.

The Mason Dixon line is technically the border between PA and Maryland, so if you use that for the difference between north and south, DC is in the South.

The Mid-Atlantic region includes both Virginia and Maryland

At the same time the Southeastern States usually include Virginia and Not Maryland

Since two of the major sports leagues include a Baltimore based team (NBA and MLB) the Washington DC based franchises in the same league are supposed to try to attract in fans from the Northern Virginia (Down to about Richmond) Metro area due to Richmond Virginia being a major population center but not having a single sports team.

But this is the same NHL which placed the Flyers in the West, so I doubt it’s supposed to make sense.

Trevor Gillies: Giving an all new meaning to "Mustache Ride"
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.

by Mark D on Sep 3, 2010 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Looks pretty good, but it got me thinking. What if you just follow the NFL and make 2 conferences, four divisions in each, four teams per division:
(i didn’t bother with division names)
EAST
1. Isles, Rags, Devils, Flyers (this is the most obvious one)
2. Boston, Montreal, Quebec, Ottawa
3. Pitt, Wash, Toronto, Buf
4. TB, Florida, Atlanta, Carolina (this one’s easy too)
WEST
1. Detroit, Chicago, Min, Winnipeg
2. St Louis, Nashville, Columbus, Dallas
3.Colorado, Phoenix, Edm, Calgary
4. LA, SJ, Anaheim, Vancouver (the “Left Coast” division)

Some of these divisions are a little rough travel-wise, but that’s gonna be the case in the west no matter how you align them. I haven’t worked the math out yet as far as how the schedule works. But divisional rivals would probably see a LOT of each other.

"That was a joke, son, don't you get it?" - Foghorn Leghorn

by cunch punch on Sep 2, 2010 7:07 PM EDT reply actions  

It's this or the 4 8-team divisions.

Both models are good, but the rivalries would get looser with 4 8-team divisions then 8 4-team divisions, so I’m leaning towards 8 4-team division with more inner division games for the season. And if I had to make a model, I’m liking cunch punch’s choices in every spot, especially the introduction of Pitt and Washington in the same division. All cunch’s selections work really well.

Go isles or Go home.

by OzzyFan on Sep 2, 2010 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm partial to the chaos of bigger divisions myself

I loved when the Patrick had four teams making it, and half that amount being on the outside.

Lighthouse Hockey: An always-open repair shop for mikb's sarcasm module.

by Dominik on Sep 2, 2010 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

ME TOO Dominick

I makes the 4 divisions like mini-leagues in themselves. The Playoffs would have nicer intensity in the early rounds as well…..those in-division games during the regular season just have more meaning I think.

FB4Real
"Past Performance Is Not A Guarantee For Future Success"

by Michael C. Ryan on Sep 3, 2010 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Obviously I dig four divisions over eight

The NFL only plays 16 games, and if you don’t win your division, you have a very poor chance of making the playoffs. It’s more intense. You couldn’t have 8-team divisions because then you’d only play divisional games until the playoffs! Hockey has a longer schedule so you need some variety.

I also wanted to avoid the “division winners automatically get the top seeds” because there’s little I like less than seeing the weak-sister division winner get smoked by the stronger six-seed. (That’s a rant for another day!) IF you gave the top two seeds to the division winners, it would still leave strong teams filling out the other two top seeds and be much more fair than FOUR division winners taking home ice from better teams (or even pushing better teams out of the playoffs).

FWIW I think cunch punch’s groupings do make sense, though I would swap Buffalo and Ottawa – Sabres/Bruins is a big deal, and the Sens have this raging inferiority-complex deal going with the Leafs, that adds interest to those games.

82 days into my latest contract approval process

by mikb on Sep 3, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

The NFL only plays 16 games, and if you don’t win your division, you have a very poor chance of making the playoffs.

Yeah, that occurred to me too. Divisional rivals play each other twice in the NFL. With an 82 game schedule it would just get out of hand. I was just noting the symmetry in two 32 team leagues.
Alright, you won me over to your side :) And I absolutely agree with having the top four seeds in the division play each other in the first 2 rounds. I miss the old Patrick division days. And remember: New York Islanders, last ever Patrick Division Champs. (David Volek, what?)

"That was a joke, son, don't you get it?" - Foghorn Leghorn

by cunch punch on Sep 4, 2010 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’d love the new realignment if it included playoffs for Divisional Championships

Trevor Gillies: Giving an all new meaning to "Mustache Ride"
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.

by Mark D on Sep 2, 2010 8:20 PM EDT reply actions  

AMEN!!!!

Definitely….The Isles and Rangers could potentially play 13 times against each other in one season (Which is no different than it is now except the likelihood is greater since the playoffs work within the divisions first).

AMEN!!!!!

FB4Real
"Past Performance Is Not A Guarantee For Future Success"

by Michael C. Ryan on Sep 3, 2010 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

that could be done

I didn’t consider playoff seedings originally… four teams per division could work. I’d only have one worry. In the “16 out of 21 teams are in” days, there was pretty much no chance of having a superior team left out of the playoffs anyway; or if they were, both teams in question were fairly bad anyway so it wasn’t a big deal. With this many teams, though, if one division were much stronger, you could legitimately have an above-.500 team (a REAL above .500) left home in favor of a below-.500 team, and that would bother me.

82 days into my latest contract approval process

by mikb on Sep 3, 2010 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

JUICE

I guess you could be right about the potential for a below .500 team getting in….However, you have to agree that the first rounds of the playoffs would certainly have more JUICE (i.e. animosity, intensity, local feel) to them that way. The Isles would almost certainly be playing a local or more tarditional rival in the first/second round

Plus…in respose to the Above .500 teams not getting in….I would simply say that you had 42 games against your division this season…you didn’t prove to be as good as those teams.

It’s kinda like how I respond to 7th pace teams in the Big East complaining about not getting in the NCAA Tournament….“you’ve been playing teams in your division/conference all year and you have proved that you are not as good as them”

Gives a little bit more meaning to the Regular Season….NO?

FB4Real
"Past Performance Is Not A Guarantee For Future Success"

by Michael C. Ryan on Sep 3, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

yes and no
….I would simply say that you had 42 games against your division this season…you didn’t prove to be as good as those teams.

The only difficulty is that you may be getting 42 games against terrific teams while the other guy’s getting 42 games against a bunch of weak-sisters. Then I think the team that fought hard against good teams, who would be a stronger playoff opponent (and thus a better game to watch for the fans), would have a legit complaint.

In our rec league, we have A and B divisions… you play a majority of your games in the division against similar-strength teams, and a few against the others. There’s always one B-team that winds up 8-2 and complains that they should be in the A division for the playoffs, but all those wins were against fellow slouches. They may be tremendous slouches, after all, but any 5-5 A-team is going to roll them right off the rink. I’ve seen it over and over.

In the NHL the differences are much smaller between those teams but it’s still there, magnified by the best-of-seven format (instead of our one-and-done opening rounds, then best-of-three finals). And especially after a long hard season, I want to see the best teams rewarded and the best playoff hockey possible. That makes the regular season just as meaningful. You may struggle in your tough division, so you have to make it up against other opponents – it’s harder to make up the ground that way because the teams you’re chasing may win at the same time.

As a result, the divisional playoff format has a bug – maybe not a fatal error, but something to be considered.

82 days into my latest contract approval process

by mikb on Sep 3, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Too Shay

I understand what you are saying…I do. Maybe your scenario would happen a lot and cause a problem. If so then maybe you are right. I’m guessing that it probably wouldn’t happen all that much. when teams play unbalanced schedules there are always differences.

I think the idea of a post season with more natural rivalries and a little animosity between teams is what really appeals to me. The Isles and Flyers play 6 times during the year and then meet in the playoffs there are gonna be some reg season issues that carry into that series. I LOVE THAT STUFF.

If one division is stronger than the other…I think thats not such a bad thing…look at MLB….The last few weeks of the season are gonna interesting for the Red Sox (Third best record in baseball I think and 6 teams (including the NL) with worse records would make the playoffs instead of them if the season ended today.

But it makes the next month in that division fun to keep an eye on.

FB4Real
"Past Performance Is Not A Guarantee For Future Success"

by Michael C. Ryan on Sep 3, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I do think there is a point where, if you haven’t finished so high in your division, you don’t have the right to feel wronged for missing out in the playoffs.

I don’t know what that point is, but if you’ve played the same schedule as four other teams and finished below all of them, you probably can feel unlucky, but not slighted.

Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.

by Dominik on Sep 3, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hear you guys

Believe me, I LOVE divisional rivals in the playoffs, with high stakes. That really builds the fanbase. The one great thing about the old overall seeding system was that the Isles and Flyers met in the Cup Finals, for the highest stakes of all. If I go to Philly in my colors, I STILL hear “Leon Steckel” and it’s awesome. It got too impractical once the league expanded beyond the Mississippi, but within a conference, it has proved doable.

82 days into my latest contract approval process

by mikb on Sep 3, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

We need a new section title or something

“In Praise of Leon Steckel”

Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.

by Dominik on Sep 3, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Going Forward....

Going Forward….Dominick…I’m gonna write to you what I am trying to say and then you write it for me hahaha…its bad luck but not unfair. Your schedule is your schedule (Unfortunately for some).

FB4Real
"Past Performance Is Not A Guarantee For Future Success"

by Michael C. Ryan on Sep 3, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha, that sounds WAY too much like my regular job.

Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.

by Dominik on Sep 3, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

So my submission is a little different

Sort of moved by the fact there used to be an odd number of teams, meaning uneven conferences, I decided to bow to geographic realities and offer an uneven realignment: 18 teams in one conference, 14 in the other:

CAMPBELL
Smythe: Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, San Jose, Anaheim, Los Angeles, Phoenix
Norris: Dallas, Colorado, Winnipeg (Central time anyway), St. Louis, Minnesota, Chicago, Nashville

WALES
Adams: Ottawa, Toronto, Quebec, Montreal, Boston, Buffalo, Detroit, New York, Long Island
Patrick: Florida, Tampa Bay, Carolina, Atlanta, Washington, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, New Jersey, Columbus

It sort of decimates the old Patrick, the NY-metro rivalry, and screws the Isles and Rangers with a bunch of Canadian trips. But it keeps Isles-Rangers together, also keeps Battle of Pennsylvania together, absorbs the natural NJ-Philly overlap, keeps the southeast together, as well as the old-time Adams. You can also swap some orphans like Columbus or something if any of those need nudging.

Naturally, it would never happen. But I think at least uneven conferences (if not uneven divisions of 9 and 7, 9 and 7) might be the way to go.

Lighthouse Hockey: An always-open repair shop for mikb's sarcasm module.

by Dominik on Sep 2, 2010 10:43 PM EDT reply actions  

That I don't like.....

I like your original idea better.

FB4Real
"Past Performance Is Not A Guarantee For Future Success"

by Michael C. Ryan on Sep 3, 2010 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think you mean mikb's original idea, right?

Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.

by Dominik on Sep 3, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes....Whoops....

Sorry about that

FB4Real
"Past Performance Is Not A Guarantee For Future Success"

by Michael C. Ryan on Sep 3, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

it's cool

I consider it a compliment to have my posts mistaken for his. And we are long-lost twins, after all…

82 days into my latest contract approval process

by mikb on Sep 3, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

And I'm loving that everybody keeps mistaking you and WB's posts for mine

It’s like, “Oh yeah, I wrote that too, that’s the ticket…I’m all that.”

/muffles WB and mikb with duct tape

Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.

by Dominik on Sep 3, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

muffle muffle

Trevor Gillies: Giving an all new meaning to "Mustache Ride"
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.

by Mark D on Sep 3, 2010 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

that's an interesting idea

It’s got an old-school, AL and NL feel to it.

The unbalanced divisions would cause some schedule concerns, but nothing insurmountable. My only thought would be that if the Rangers didn’t have the Flyers and Devils in their division any more, there would be a huge stink. I got away with splitting Montreal and Toronto because I could get Quebec back in there, and because the league’s put them in different conferences in the past (poor Doug Gilmour). Same goes for Buffalo/Toronto. I do admit, though, that Winnipeg and Phoenix are not helped AT ALL by having to make three trips to each other’s city every year. At least it’s not too bad a time shift, but that’s a long-ass flight, charter or not.

82 days into my latest contract approval process

by mikb on Sep 3, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

My only thought would be that if the Rangers didn’t have the Flyers and Devils in their division any more, there would be a huge stink.

Yeah, I think you’re right. And certainly two of those owners are pretty important and would get their way.

Your Winnipeg-Phoenix travel problem in your mock-up brings up another point…Western travel is so bad, that’s actually what first made me think we need to consider uneven conferences.

Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.

by Dominik on Sep 3, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great Post

The thing I don’t like about the post is that it is bringing me back to a time and a scenario which I/we will never see…..I totally LOVE the old division names idea and the idea of 4 8-Team divisions. Those old division names were great and I always felt like other sports should have considered such a change when they went through their re-alignments.

PLAN B is definitely the best as far as scheduling goes…I like that because it heats up those Division Rivalries as well. That way when the playoffs come around…the Isles and the Flyers have six games during the season to build enough a little good old-fashioned animosity that never hurt a playoff series that I have ever seen.

Don’t forget the PLAYOFFS either: Top 4 in each division make it regardless of records of other teams in other divisions and the first two rounds of the playoffs are with-in the Division as well.

EXAMPLE:

1st Round Patrick Dvision
Isles v. Rangers
Flyers v. Bruins

Winners play each other (ex: Isles v. Flyers)
Winner plays the corresponding winner from Norris (ex: Isles v. Washington)
Wales Conf Winner (Isles) play Campbell Conf. Winner (Edmonton)…..OH and ISLES WIN THE STANLEY CUP!!!

FB4Real
"Past Performance Is Not A Guarantee For Future Success"

by Michael C. Ryan on Sep 3, 2010 9:49 AM EDT reply actions  

If the Isles get to play the Oilers, I think they may actually be able to pull it off!

82 days into my latest contract approval process

by mikb on Sep 3, 2010 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

OH, AND ONE MORE THING

It hardly needs to be said – in the SBN/NHL, there are NO PITY POINTS. One twenty-minute OT, long change. Two for a win, one for a tie, lose and you get NOTHING. You LOSE. GOOD DAY, SIR.

82 days into my latest contract approval process

by mikb on Sep 3, 2010 10:37 AM EDT reply actions  

Death to the pity point!

You want to see an increase in scoring, Commisioner Who Shall Not Be Named? Then do away with the pity point! Even the NFL has ties! I think that people can wrap their head around them JUST FINE.

(Ok, so maybe I feel a bit strongly about this one.)

by MTBVibe on Sep 3, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

You are not alone

There are other members of this secret choir, and one day we will rise up and … well we’re gonna do something by golly.

Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.

by Dominik on Sep 3, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Dear Commissioner

“We are appalled by your decision to award pity points for losing National Hockey League Games. You choice in foisting them upon us goes to prove that you are the leading ******* in the state.”

And if that doesn’t work, we will have no choice but to send you yet another strongly-worded letter!

82 days into my latest contract approval process

by mikb on Sep 3, 2010 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

We might even bite our thumbs at the commish, if he’s not careful…

Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.

by Dominik on Sep 3, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Harumph, harumph, harumph

“I didn’t get a harumph out of that man!”
“Harumph!”

"That was a joke, son, don't you get it?" - Foghorn Leghorn

by cunch punch on Sep 3, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is a real Pet Peeve of mine

Contrary to, well, almost all talk of scoring in the NHL, the magical invented point is NOT going to the loser, it is actually going to the winner. The point the loser is getting is the point they should rightfully get for completing a tie game and remaining tied after OT. They invented an additional point to give to the make-pretend “winner” of what was actually a tie game.

I did a writeup aboutt his a while ago- I explain it more in detail here if youre interested. Its too old to comment on, but you can still read it. :)

Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)

by TheMetalChick on Sep 3, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

I just Read Your Old Post

You are Right…..Cal it a “Not-Winner” Point. Hahahaha

FB4Real
"Past Performance Is Not A Guarantee For Future Success"

by Michael C. Ryan on Sep 3, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it would help if they gave 3 points for a regulation win

3&0 for regulation
2&1 for OT/SO

Give teams a reason to chase a regulation win and not sit back for OT. Also I want to see penalties taken in the final 2 minutes of OT carrying into the shootout i.e. if you hook someone with 15 seconds left your team looses a shot in the shootout and the player is not available no matter how many rounds it goes.

by Anarcurt on Sep 3, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

my league already does this

If you’re in the box when the game ends, you cannot take a shootout round, though you still get your three shots.

The pity point is actually a loser point if the team loses in OT, though – they keep their point because they were tied after regulation. Gabe Desjardins did terrific work on this at Behind the Net; he observed that teams are far more conservative in the last minutes of tied games, choosing to just bank the point and take their chances in the OT/shootout.

82 days into my latest contract approval process

by mikb on Sep 3, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

The pity point is actually a loser point if the team loses in OT, though – they keep their point because they were tied after regulation.

I addressed this idea in my old linked post as well. Before 1983, all NHL teams got a point if there was a tie at the end of regulation. So does that mean it was 80 years of “loser points” or were they simply what they were- ties at the end of regulation? If you reject the 1 point to a team for a tie after regulation then you are rejecting three quarters of a century of hockey.

Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)

by TheMetalChick on Sep 3, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

au contraire!

The league had overtimes earlier… they suspended regular-season OT on November 20, 1942, due to the War, and left it out until 1983. Whenever they DID have it – including from 1983-1999 – the team losing in overtime lost the point as well, which says to me that the point was never for a tie at the end of regulation, but a tie at the end of all actual hockey.

82 days into my latest contract approval process

by mikb on Sep 3, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just pointing out, that is not “au contraire” to what I have been saying- either way of looking at it was addressed. I dont see the point in re-typing the entire thing, it was a big post.

Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)

by TheMetalChick on Sep 3, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know, I read it!

It was a good post. I subscribe to theory #2 – that the single point is for the tie at the end of the complete game, including any OT. That’s hockey history, too, and I daresay just common sense. And I have been saying “PITY point” not loser point, because it’s pitiful to give out extra benefits to shootout winners.

I dig that you’re passionate about it – so is everyone else here, I suspect. It’s probably why we’re in a spat about something we agree on.

82 days into my latest contract approval process

by mikb on Sep 3, 2010 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dig that you’re passionate about it – so is everyone else here, I suspect. It’s probably why we’re in a spat about something we agree on.

Ha, what a great line. Kinda explains hockey fanatics in the offseason, doesnt it!

Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)

by TheMetalChick on Sep 4, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

We may have to resurrect that post when the season starts

For the next round of “loser” talk…

Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.

by Dominik on Sep 3, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe we can work on a collective writeup trying to look at all sides of the subject and their ramifications on other eras.
It would be nice to talk about it and get a lot of input from people.

Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)

by TheMetalChick on Sep 3, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

That'd be fun

“TMC and Dom Fix the NHL in 3 Easy Steps.”

Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.

by Dominik on Sep 3, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

4 on 4 still as well…we want winners….no ties and as few shootouts as possible

FB4Real
"Past Performance Is Not A Guarantee For Future Success"

by Michael C. Ryan on Sep 3, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like ties! Well, I *tolerate* ties...

Of course I would say “no shootouts and as few ties as possible” — I only want winners who won the game. (Alternatively: The 3-point reg. win system that Anarcurt mentions.)

…but I know this is practically like a political debate, lol. There is no end.

Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.

by Dominik on Sep 3, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lets get crazy

No conferences at all. 4 divisions of 8. Top four of each division advance.

NE: NYI, NYR, NJ, Phi, Bos, Mon, Que, Ott
SE: Was, Car, TB, FL, Nash, Atl, Dal, StL
Mid: Det, Tor, Buf, Chi, Min, Win, Pitt, CBJ
West: Van, Cal, Ed, LA, SJ, Ana, Pho, Colorado.

42 games in division (6 games against each opp) 40 out (2 against one div 1 against the other 2).

Seeds would be given out 1-4 for champions based on points with the remainder falling in based on points (but only 4 teams from each division).

by Anarcurt on Sep 3, 2010 12:09 PM EDT reply actions  

That's not bad either.

No need to stick to conferences necessarily. But I think the driving factors should be travel and time zone, with a nod to historic rivalries (which are usually protected by travel anyway). But those doggone Western cities are just so spread out no matter how you group them.

Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.

by Dominik on Sep 3, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the hardest thing with this alignment is separating Toronto & Montreal. But if I keep them together then you need to move Philly to the mid which doesn’t really make any sense.

by Anarcurt on Sep 3, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

i'd keep Buffalo with Boston and Ottawa with Toronto

But other than that, these are excellent. Washington lumping in with the southern teams is probably for the best, and I love Winnipeg out of the Phx group and into the midwestern, with Colorado (further south) taking their place. I think we have a winner!

82 days into my latest contract approval process

by mikb on Sep 3, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

That would work, I think

I’m trying to remember, I’ve never thought about this with Quebec and Winnipeg before — usually with Hamilton/Toronto 2 and K.C. KC, while not a great market in my unqualified opinion, makes realignment a little easier.

Lighthouse Hockey: Trying to reconstitute the Hogue-Turgeon-Thomas line from NHL 94.

by Dominik on Sep 3, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought of that. My criteria centered around geography first and with that I felt they should be grouped in with the other Great Lakes teams. Switching them wouldn’t add too much travel time so that fits fine. The biggest thing I wanted to do was get teams like Detroit, which is in the Eastern Time Zone, out of some kind of Western Conference. The western teams are scattered further but some just don’t make sense. I mean Columbus? I know there is no way to make a 15 or in our case 16 team conference without them but why do we need conferences anyway?Just set up divisions, play a lot of in division games with a couple versus the others. Division champions advance with wild cards or whatever you want to call it filling out the rest of the top 16. This might cause some playoff travel but that’s no big deal.

by Anarcurt on Sep 4, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

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Josh Bailey 12 LW 10/2/1989 190 6-1
Rick DiPietro 39 G 9/19/1981 190 6-1
Mark Eaton 4 D 5/6/1977 215 6-1
Michael Grabner 40 RW 10/5/1987 185 6-0
Travis Hamonic 3 D 8/16/1990 203 6-2
Milan Jurcina 27 D 6/7/1983 253 6-4
Andrew MacDonald 47 D 9/7/1986 196 6-1
Matt Martin 17 LW 3/8/1989 210 6-3
Al Montoya 35 G 2/13/1985 203 6-2
Mike Mottau 10 D 3/19/1978 190 6-0
Matt Moulson 26 LW 11/1/1983 205 6-1
Evgeni Nabokov 20 G 7/25/1975 200 6-0
Nino Niederreiter 25 RW 9/8/1992 205 6-2
Frans Nielsen 51 C 4/24/1984 184 6-0
Kyle Okposo 21 RW 4/16/1988 205 6-0
Jay Pandolfo 29 LW 12/27/1974 190 6-1
P.A. Parenteau 15 LW 3/24/1983 193 6-0
Rhett Rakhshani 49 RW 3/6/1988 190 5-10
Marty Reasoner 16 C 2/26/1977 205 6-1
Dylan Reese 42 D 8/29/1984 201 6-1
Brian Rolston 11 LW 2/21/1973 215 6-2
Steve Staios 24 D 7/28/1973 200 6-1
Mark Streit 2 D 12/11/1977 197 6-0
John Tavares 91 C 9/20/1990 202 6-0
Tim Wallace 36 RW 8/6/1984 207 6-1
Calvin de Haan 44 D 5/9/1991 187 6-1

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