What the Hornqvist, Little deals mean for Kyle Okposo, Josh Bailey
I know it was just yesterday that I ventured you might be tired of salary talk.
(If you are, my answers to Arthur are now up at Anaheim Calling. In other links, Andrew MacDonald's Twitter Q&A was fun. ... And Ken at Okposo Net has been filing some quotes from the summer prospect camp (Brock Nelson right here, Travis Hamonic right there) ... And Bruce Peter at Puck Worlds has been covering that World Hockey Summit, including a nice post on the juniors question here, and another on the Europe transfer issue here -- on that note, Rene Fasel sure came off like a tool in that Puck Daddy bit betraying his entirely Euro-centric slant as "International" hockey head.).
Anyway, two league salary stories from this week are relevant to decisions the Islanders will face next summer: Namely, the next contracts for Josh Bailey and Kyle Okposo. Nashville's RFA Patric Hornqvist, 23 and coming off a Matt Moulson-like surprising 30-goal season, signed for 3 years, $9.25 million. Meanwhile, Atlanta's Bryan Little, 23 in November and coming off a severe drop after a 30-goal season two years ago, signed for 3 years, $7.14 million.
Now, Bailey and Okposo are each younger than those two and also have one more season to put up data before their second contracts are due. But for a hint of what's to come it's worth taking a gander at how these players look next to each other:
Player-Season (age) |
GP |
G |
A |
P |
+/- |
PP |
PK |
Corsi/QoC team rank |
Rating team rank |
Sh% |
| Okposo 2008-09 (age 20) | 65 | 18 | 21 | 39 | -6 | 3:10 | 1:21 | 5th | 5th | 10.9% |
| Okposo 2009-10 (age 21) | 80 | 19 | 33 | 52 | -22 | 4:17 | 1:49 | 6th | 14th | 7.6% |
| Bailey 2008-09 (age 19) | 68 | 7 | 18 | 25 | -14 | 3:10 | 0:03 | 8th | 7th | 9.5% |
| Bailey 2009-10 (age 20) | 73 | 16 | 19 | 35 | +5 | 2:07 | 0:32 | 11th | 3rd | 14.3% |
| Hornqvist 2008-09 (age 22) | 28 | 2 | 5 | 7 | -3 | 0:55 | 0:02 | n/a | n/a | 3.7% |
| Hornqvist 2009-10 (age 23) | 80 | 30 | 21 | 51 | +18 | 2:50 | 0:02 | 9th | 1st | 10.9% |
| Little 2008-09 (age 21) | 79 | 31 | 20 | 51 | -5 | 4:00 | 0:02 | 5th | 4th | 18.0% |
| Little 2009-10 (age 22) | 79 | 13 | 21 | 34 | -6 | 2:58 | 0:02 | 12th | 6th | 7.9% |
Those two ranking categories (Corsi relative to Quality of Competition, and "Rating," which is a relative +/- within the team) are from Behind the Net, and I include them here just as a rough way to get an idea of how important -- and how tough the assignments -- each guy was to his team at 5-on-5. ... Shooting percentage, meanwhile, can give you a strong hint on whether a guy's year was a little luck-aided (Little in 08-09?) or luck-harmed (Okposo in 09-10?), since players don't generally suddenly forget how to shoot or suddenly learn to shoot twice as well as before.)
Further Reading: Dirk Hoag at Predators blog On the Forecheck has an argument praising the Hornqvist deal, stating he's no flash in the pan and noting his shooting percentage hardly screamed "fluke!" Adam Gretz has a post at FanHouse focusing on both deals, and examining why Little's production dropped so much (a drop in PP time being one factor).
Where These Guys Stand
Now, these forwards are of slightly different ages and different pedigrees. Okposo was a 7th overall pick in 2006, just five spots ahead of Little in that same draft. Bailey was a 9th overall pick two years later. Hornqvist was now famously an afterthought -- a 7th rounder in 2005.
We've talked before here how Okposo's tough minutes and bad luck likely fed that poor plus/minus last season. (I also suspect he's been relied on too heavily at this age.) Put that aside and consider his age and all-around deployment -- the only one in this group to be used on both special teams units -- and you could picture him, after this coming season, clearly being the best player among this group. He's already its highest single-season scorer by points.
Bailey, on the other hand, has typically had less demanding assignments and has experienced a position shift (possibly temporary) that has reflected a more stuttering development. Is he a left wing or is he a center? That question may not be answered by next summer, but I bet it affects his contract negotiations. While the Islanders likely see his future still as a center, it's been on the wing that he's played his best so far as an NHLer. If this season represents more growing pains for the youngest member of this group, it might depress his asking price, which wouldn't be the worst situation for the Isles if they happened to lock him up for longer at that lower price.
But looking at the numbers and ages, in Bailey, Okposo, Hornqvist and Little we have four players with similarly uncertain track records in their early 20s. (Such ups and downs are hardly surprising for any player, but especially so for players early in their development.) As it happens, Okposo and Bailey are the two who have followed the more "expected" curve from one year to the next -- Little, in contrast, saw a big drop, while Hornqvist saw the unlikeliest of Moulson-esque jumps.
Guess the Contract
[Update: After sleeping on this a bit, I decided I need to clarify the question.] Fortunately the Isles have another year before they have to put an RFA value (and term) on these two. But given their age and growth curve so far, what do you suppose those numbers and terms will be? And if either Okposo or Bailey does not improve last year's counting stats, which one has more to lose at the negotiating table -- Bailey, right?
It all depends on how 2010-11 goes, but right now I'd bet next summer Okposo signs a Hornqvist-like contract (maybe a little over Hornqvist's 3 years, $3.083 million cap hit), while Bailey gets something closer to Little's (3 years, $2.383 million cap hit) or David Perron's (2 years, $2.1 million cap hit with a $2.5 million top salary).
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I think we are in good shape if we can get them to stay at around $3million/year
I would like to see contracts like that…maybe an option for a 4th year
Any task BIG or small, Do it well or not at all
A bigger question will be in the 2012 summer
When Tavares’ contract is up. Do they give him a big 5+ year contract or just a three year one and sign him long term later but lets worry about this year first before we talk about next summer or the one after that
2012, 2013, 2014
One of the things I enjoy about this question is: Imagine we had a Tavares/Okposo type we had to extend this summer. It’s harder to know where each salary slot fits when you don’t know what the guys due next summer will command, isn’t it?
In other words, when the Isles need to sign/decide on:
-Okposo/Bailey/Comeau/Schremp … they’ll be a year away from knowing JT’s number;
-when it’s JT’s turn…they’ll be a year away from knowing the number of any rookie who begins this year (Hamonic? Nino? de Haan?)
Best-laid plans as you build and lock up your core, but there’s bound to be some surprises from one year to the next.
Lighthouse Hockey: More defensemen than we know how to spell.
What about the next CBA?
Dom, I get the nervous shivers when you put all those names on a time-line like that. The current CBA only goes through the 11-12 season and expires just before the start of the 12-13 season. So what happens when we have to resign KO and Bailey after this year (and Schremp/Comeau/Hillen are all RFAs after this season too) and take into consideration that after the first season of any deal they get, we might be in a drastically different salary space? (AND we have to think about Moulson next summer too…)
We already know the NHLPA and NHL are behaving contentiously about the next CBA. So what will Garth do? (Is it even legal to construct a deal tied to potential changes in the salary cap caused by the next CBA? And if it currently is, would they leave that ability in the next one?) We are seeing, although in a vastly differing economic, legal, and social situation, what the effects of that sort of contentiousness on pending CBA negotiations can have on player management over in the NFL right now, with teams unwilling to extend players while the CBA is up in the air for them.
(Every thought just creates more questions!)
Also, hockey is one of the few major “North American” sports which has competitively comparable leagues outside of the continent. We’re already seeing players depart North America for Russia and elsewhere when they can’t get the deal they want with an NHL team. Fortunately I think the Islanders current NHL youth core isn’t particularly at risk in that particular sense.
Overall, I think that your projections of ~3mil a year for KO and ~2mil a year for Bailey are likely to be accurate, but the big question is going to be term and structure. I’d start to speculate here about what we might see in the next CBA, but that really deserves it’s own post…
The big IF is their performance this season. Logically, if either of them see a 20 point increase from this season, their price tags will go up. Likewise, if either of them are unfortunately to be injured and miss any sort of time, the tag will go down.
My bet? We’ll see Garth try to lock them both into deals with an option to mutually void some of the later years in the event of major CBA changes, assuming they can make the language for that void agreeable to the league and insulated from misuse.
Answering my own question....
Correcting my absent link:
I’m putting together a FanPost with a bunch of other things I noticed in a quick read of the document just now. (472 page pdf, quiet day at work…yeah.)
Oh man
The CBA contains lots of fun and confounding clauses.
The stuff on mortgage expenses, fees given to players in the event of franchise relocation, and the definition of a life “partner” are awesome.
Lighthouse Hockey: More defensemen than we know how to spell.
Great questions
As you noted, voiding/option years are not possible. But the CBA expiration is a massive elephant — to me the CBA is “working,” or should be allowed longer to work and expose its own consequences, but obviously the owners either don’t see it that way or see the current union weakness as an opportunity to extract more concessions, which could mean a smaller share of HRR for the players.
So as for how Snow anticipates that? I have no idea. I guess he’ll have a slightly better clue by next summer.
Of course the other X-factor for us is how much Wang will be willing to spend, and if he’ll even know what venue his team will play in just a few seasons into the next CBA.
Lighthouse Hockey: More defensemen than we know how to spell.
I could say Okposo for Bobby Ryan (and every Isles fan would kill me)
ummmm, yeah, we should talk, Dom. Things like this are simply not said, not even in jest.
Nice interview.
by Nova Scotia Isles Fan on Aug 25, 2010 8:48 AM EDT reply actions
I was under duress!
:) Yeah, it was funny, I looked at their roster and the NYI roster and absolutely could not contrive anything desirable that made sense for either side. They have guys who are either too old or are slightly older, pricier versions of what we hope our guys become.
Lighthouse Hockey: More defensemen than we know how to spell.
Dom, why don't you take a seat right over, we've got to talk about loyalty in our family,
lol, jk. Not worth the trade right now. Ryan wants $5mil/yr or more and still isn’t signed(i believe) for some reason. And unless KO has a 70-80pt+yr, I don’t think he’s getting more then $4mil/yr in hopefully a long term deal.
On trading for ryan, we could make a deal, but it depends if the ducks like prospects or not. I don’t see why a schremp, joensuu, draft pick(and maybe one more average prospect like rahk or reese) trade wouldn’t pull him away at this point with all the negotiation problems they’ve been having.
Go isles or Go home.
"Hey Fredo, we're going fishing..."
Ryan’s a major asset though. So I figure the only thing on our roster that could pry him away is the few pieces we wouldn’t want to give up.
Lighthouse Hockey: More defensemen than we know how to spell.
off subject
i read at nj.com that the nhl had rejected the second Kovi contract. anyone can confirm?
by Lakewood Islander on Aug 25, 2010 11:11 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Supposedly
They rejected a proposed “structure,” according to Puck Daddy. So not a formal proposal, but a framework I guess.
Lighthouse Hockey: More defensemen than we know how to spell.
thanks,and DO NOT mess with KO!
by Lakewood Islander on Aug 25, 2010 1:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The great thing about being near the floor
Is that basically we can pay these guys just about anything and not worry about it.
BTW: I still say Bailey to Wing, Schremp to center unless Schremp suffers enormously this season which I doubt.
Dominik signed me for 20 years, and all I got was a press conference and a voided contract...
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Here be monsters
That is nice, but it does carry some risk that worries me: One or two wrong moves and suddenly you have good money sunk into an average player. Perhaps worse: even with a new building the Islanders will probably have some kind of internal budget ceiling.
Lighthouse Hockey: More defensemen than we know how to spell.
I think we’ll be alright as long as there’s no more 15 year deals.
Dominik signed me for 20 years, and all I got was a press conference and a voided contract...
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
All our problems/future depend on:
if these young guns want to sign longer term security deals with hometown discounts over 1year prove myself contracts. We lose a bailey or a ko in free agency, we have a somewhat BIG problem to fill.
Let’s say:
KO has a 30goal/70pt season. Now, on the open market KO will fetch around a $4-4.5mil/yr 1-2yr deal most likely. We could, get him at hopefully a 3-5yr contract at $3-$3.75ml/yr. Question is, will he do it or does he want to immediately move to a contender? If KO wants to stay, he’ll stay. If KO wants to go, he’ll have no problem finding suitors. But the big question is not really how much we need to pay him (since we can fit a big number if needed), but does he want to still play for the isles.
Same with bailey, but to a smaller extent. Say JB has a 25goal/50pt season. He’ll be looking at the same stuff and questions KO is, but at a smaller budget.
I don’t think the problem is how much we pay them, since we have worked with cap hits, a $4mil/yr goalie who’s seen very little playing time, and have a very solid team for working on the cap floor. The problem is, do KO and JB want to stay on the isles or do they want to venture elsewhere with their career? That is the main question I believe on this subject. AND, I’m a firm believer of getting KO’s deal-multi-yr extension done during the season because of his importance to our team, and get JB’s contract done asap after the season.
Go isles or Go home.
Beggars can't be chosers
I had this arguement with another writer named Rob Mcgowan, Would the agents get involved and try to negotiate a max 3yr deal for KO and 4yr deal for JB because at the end of the deals both would be UFA (26yrs old) and maximizing their next and biggest contracts. So basically taking a Jordan Staal deal 4yrs at 4mill, then again seeing what Toews and Kane got for 2nd contracts(5yrs)kind of gives players better job security.
my guess – KO – 3yrs at 2.95mil
JB – 4yrs at 2.50mill
Yes, a lot of these second contracts are negotiated in a way that if you extend them past UFA age, then the salary escalates. So you either pay them less on a shorter RFA-controlled term, or you pay them more as you “buy out” some of their UFA years.
It will be an interesting negotiation.
Lighthouse Hockey: An always-open repair shop for mikb's sarcasm module.
OT - Dom
Hockey’s Future re-did top 20 prospect list with El Nino at the top with
but has Kirill Kabanov ranked 7th but a higher ceiling rating 8.0 not sure what they base their rankings on – ( also no Martin)
LOL
Yeah, someone posted that in another thread a few days ago, and we were all … “confused” would be the word.
Lighthouse Hockey: An always-open repair shop for mikb's sarcasm module.
hockeyfutures.dum
I think they throw darts at a Ouija board, with a few d20 and old O-Pee-Chee trading cards in French. I’m surprised Carol Vadnais and Bob Boughner aren’t on the futures chart.
My latest contract is for 31 years.

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