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Around SBN: An Explanation For Some Of The Perplexing HOF Snubs

Calling Anaheim Calling on Andy Sutton, Jason Blake, the Bob Murray Experience

Update: This was a tit-for-tat thing, so my answers to Arthur's questions are up over there at Anaheim Calling.

It's August. You've probably had enough of me rambling about salaries and depth charts and talent ceilings. And we still have over a month to ponder chemistry issues like how well Butch Goring and Howie Rose will work as a booth tag team.

So today, something a little different: All of the SBN hockey sites are pairing off to exchange Q&A's. Here's Arthur from Anaheim Calling's responses to my questions about the ex-Island-- er, I mean the Ducks. Topics include former Islanders Jason Blake and Andy Sutton, the Bob Murray regime, some old-time college hockey (you know Blake, Sutton, Paul Kariya) and what it's like to see your team win a Stanley Cup when you're old enough to enter a bar.

Lighthouse Hockey: We'll start Islanders-centric: Jason Blake was quite popular among some Islanders fans (the underdog mystique and hustling your way to 40 goals will do that), but overall I'd say his post-Islanders life has been predictable: His walk year screamed of a peak year, and now he "suffers" the fate of being paid more than his natural production would command. What did you know of him before he arrived from Toronto as human salary relief, and did he do anything at the end of last season to change your mind? What do you suspect his role will be with the Ducks?

Star-divide

Arthur from Anaheim Calling: Ducks fans are pretty familiar with Blake, as he came up with the Kings. I also remember him from his time with NoDak before that. He was good back then, but I don't think anyone expects consistency out of him, certainly not the level of consistency that a cash team (i.e. not a cap team) expects from a guy they're paying $3 million.

He played well after a slow start, but I think the minimum expectation is that he'll put the puck on net. The Ducks tend to pass too much, so I think they were really hoping for that out of forwards like Lupul and Blake. If Lupul isn't healthy out of the gate this year and the Ducks don't sign anyone else, then obviously that expectation becomes more important, but I doubt the team would come to expect more of a contribution from him.

 

LHH: Similarly, what did you know about Andy Sutton before the Ducks signed him? Was he on your radar as a free agent target -- or were you just trying to decipher what Bob Murray's grand plan for the post-Niedermayer blueline was?

Arthur from Anaheim Calling: Funnily enough, Sutton also got his start in the WCHA and the Pacific Divison, but I didn't remember him as well as Blake.  He was on my radar at the trade deadline, and I think he found his way onto everyone's radar after he smoked Jordan Leopold into the penalty box in the playoffs, but I think he just happens to be exactly what the Ducks need to round out the corps.

Bob Murray might still make a play for a top tier defenseman via trade this season, but in terms of creating working pairings, Sutton's basement value replaces what the Ducks got from Aaron Ward last year: size, sandpaper and shotblocking (perhaps all potentially limited by injury).  I think he makes life easier on a small guy like Visnovsky or he gives us some much needed PK minutes alongside Lydman. Anaheim's working with a very thin blueline this year and really didn't bring much to the table in terms of grit last year, so in many ways, Sutton was a significant acquisition.

 

LHH: You gave us thoughts on James Wisniewski at the time of the trade, so I'll just ask this: Do you see it as a wise asset shuffle to bring in Sutton for two years at $2.125 million per + a 3rd round pick while discarding Wis at 1 year, $3.25 million (and his inevitable departure as a UFA)?

Arthur from Anaheim Calling: It's tough for me to see Wisniewski in terms of his on-paper value. I tend to think of him as a player that other GM's knew Murray wanted to take to arbitration a year ago and was trying to move for Cam Barker in February. He was also a player whose ceiling value to the team grew increasingly evident last season. He drew the following quote from Ducks' beat writer Eric Stephens:

"It’s likely that the Ducks don’t view [Wisniewski] as [a number 2 defenseman] and had to play him so much more out of necessity than desire."

In those terms, I would have taken a bus pass and a pack of Newports for Wisniewski and called it a shrewd deal.

But just looking at the assets in context, Wisniewski wasn't an Anaheim draft pick.  He was acquired in a deal for an expiring contract, and there was no reason to search desperately for a way to keep a guy you can't use.  It was a question of fit.  And if one guy needs a pair of chopsticks and the other guy needs a Slurpee straw, then I think it's a good deal for both of them regardless of the on-paper value of the chopsticks when compared to the Slurpee straw. In that sense, I think it was proper asset management.

 

LHH: If I understand it right, you were drawn to the Ducks first via your college hockey fandom. How did you get into college hockey and hockey in general? (As an evangelist for hockey in new markets and as someone from a "traditional market" who grew up with hockey from the crib, I'm always curious how this great game hooks people who weren't spoon-fed it as children.)

Arthur from Anaheim Calling:  When I moved to Las Vegas in the early 90s, I bought a pair of inline skates, and I started playing street hockey with some neighbors who were transplants from more traditional hockey areas. They were die-hards for the college game, and they introduced me to the sport. Before that, I had been to a Kings game and watched hockey movies like Youngblood (repeatedly) and Slapshot, but I grew up in San Francisco during the Sportschannel America era, so I hadn't seen much in terms of NHL action.

I'm definitely a college hockey fan first, and I think spreading the college game can really benefit the pro fan bases.  I'm probably an example of that; I don't know if I would have become a Ducks fan if I didn't watch Paul Kariya and Maine take down Brian Rolston and Lake Superior.

 

LHH: For a fanbase increasingly made up of people who either a) weren't alive for the Islanders Cup wins or b) mostly remember it through an Atari-blurred haze, do tell us: What is it like to see your team win it all as an adult? Has reaching the ultimate prize altered how you experience "normal" seasons that inevitably end, more often than not, well short of a Cup win? What I'm getting at is: Winning it all changes a fan, doesn't it?

Arthur from Anaheim Calling:  I think when you see your team win it as an adult, you understand how rare it is. You need special players who are also the right players, it has to be the right season, etc. Being able to understand those things makes the victory sweeter, but it also makes it impossible to harbor the expectation that it will happen again. I think you have to watch your team win multiple Cups, sometimes against all odds, before you start "expecting" anything. And I definitely haven't lost my tolerance for the "normal" season yet. The Ducks climbed high, but it wasn't all that long ago that they crawled out of the cellar.

 

LHH: So much can change in three seasons, which is how much remains on Ryan Getzlaf and Corey Perry's contracts: With them, Ryan (presumably), Hiller, Lupul, and Visnovsky all locked up through 2012-13, do you think the ingredients are there for Murray to build another legit Cup contender? How much does having a potential star in Cam Fowler dropped into your lap affect that equation?

Arthur from Anaheim Calling: Since you included Murray in the question, I have to say that I don't know if Murray can build a legitimate Cup contender.  His vision for last year's team was a gross miscalculation. Luckily, he's shown an aptitude for trading his way out of a jam, but if you're fixing last summer's mistakes every March, then you're probably not a playoff team. Also, assuming there isn't another lockout, I think the Salary Cap for 2012-13 may be determinative, but you're right that the pieces are in place.

In terms of Fowler, there's actually a lot of talent in the cupboard surrounding him, such that I wonder if the Ducks couldn't keep Getzlaf and Hiller and make a run with a completely different crew. The Ducks may send Cam down this year, even if he has a really good 9 games.  I think it's going to be a situation where having a player that good dropped into your lap motivates you to get seven of his best years out of him.

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Great stuff Dom!
I think it’s going to be a situation where having a player that good dropped into your lap motivates you to get seven of his best years out of him.

Can somebody text this to Garth Snow repeatedly for the next two months.

Is JW chopsticks or a slurpee straw? This team definitely needs chopsticks… actually it needs silverware, but we’d settle for chopsticks.

My cup is 3/4 empty, How 'bout yours?

by JPinVA on Aug 24, 2010 11:34 AM EDT reply actions  

I loved that line too

You go through all the pain and patience demanded of a rebuild, there better be a really compelling reason to suddenly toss patience out the window and rush an 18-year old.

Lighthouse Hockey: More defensemen than we know how to spell.

by Dominik on Aug 24, 2010 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Chopsticks are okay by me

…just so long as we keep away from the fish sticks!

by oxposo on Aug 24, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh dear God. How long until WebBard unleashes his freakish jersey design from a couple of years ago?

There are few things in this world I enjoy more than the English getting beaten like a rented mule.

by David Hanssen on Aug 24, 2010 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

The aqua technicolor dreamcoat?

I give it 24 hours…

Lighthouse Hockey: More defensemen than we know how to spell.

by Dominik on Aug 24, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lol,

Am I one of the few who thought the fishsticks man logo wasn’t kind of cool looking?

Go isles or Go home.

by OzzyFan on Aug 25, 2010 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

"was kind of cool looking",

Misphrased. I liked it.

Go isles or Go home.

by OzzyFan on Aug 25, 2010 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

College Hockey

I think Arthur makes a very good point about spreading the college game benefiting the pro fan base and vice-versa. This is something I would have never thought of before moving out to Minny, but nearly everyone I have talked to out there is a college hockey fan first and rather “Meh” about the pro game since the North Stars left. While they follow the Wild and the NHL, they are first and foremost Gophers, Bulldogs, Badgers or what have you fans. These are people that love hockey but don’t get into the NHL too much because A) The guys they followed in college are poorly marketed (A few didn’t even realize hometown hero KO was with the Islanders, same with Ness being Islanders property) and B) They were abused by the NHL and are still hurting from it.

There are few things in this world I enjoy more than the English getting beaten like a rented mule.

by David Hanssen on Aug 24, 2010 2:42 PM EDT reply actions  

It is so different up there

My Gophers friend had NHL season tickets for a while until the lockout, then went back to strictly college hockey.

I bet if the Wild saw some success again they’d rope some people in — certainly they don’t suffer attendance issues. But absolutely I think the college game helps breed fans.

Lighthouse Hockey: More defensemen than we know how to spell.

by Dominik on Aug 24, 2010 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Marketing

Warning: This gets a bit Soapbox-y so read on of you dare-

I think if the NHL did a better job of promoting the American born ex-collegiate players in the NHL they would wind up attracting a larger American audience. Outside of Ryan Miller and Jonathan Toews, they really haven’t promoted too many of the ex-NCAA guys. I’ve always thought the NHL was really missing something big here, especially when you take someone like Kyle Okposo into consideration. Here’s an African-American kid, only the second US born player of African descent to play in the NHL, playing in New York and how much exposure does he get from the NHL? None. How much pub does Zach Parise, one of the best skill players in the NHL and playing in New Jersey get? Not much. Ditto for guys like Jamie Langenbrunner, Erik Johnson, Ryan Suter, ect.

Think about what message the NHL is sending to people too when Patrick Kane, a guy who decided not to go to college and seems like is on course to be Theo Fleury 2.0, is probably the best known American born NHL player and a guy like Zach Parise doesn’t get much pub other than a NJ Literact Awareness bilboard on the Jersey Turnpike?

There are few things in this world I enjoy more than the English getting beaten like a rented mule.

by David Hanssen on Aug 24, 2010 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Interesting...

I’ve never really thought about this before. I think subconsciously, I always figured certain guys got marketing attention because they were already known in Canadian circles when they were teenagers (“a good Saskatchewan boy who was a star at Moose Jaw…”) and so there is built-in awareness of them.

I wonder if part of it is there’s just not that much awareness (relatively) in the U.S. period when compared to Canada, so the college connection is just one more void maybe? I don’t know. But I probably don’t know what I’m saying, since I’m a guy who used to crack up when NFL broadcasts would say “the tight end out of Ohio” or whatever — because as a non-follower of college sports, I’d think, “Why the hell do I care where this guy went to college?”

Lighthouse Hockey: More defensemen than we know how to spell.

by Dominik on Aug 24, 2010 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

You list some Canadian NCAA guys and some Americans that played juniors in Canada, so I’m not sure if you’re asking about marketing where people went to college or their nationality, but on the topic of telling people where someone went to college, I’ll actually second Dominik’s aside that some people don’t care. It depends on how deep youth hockey runs in your particular market. In Minnesota, where players went to high school is important. Paul Martin, Elk River, tells them something. So does Zach Budish, Edina High, namely ‘cake eater.’ Some people care, some people don’t.

I care to the point that when Dominik said Blake and Sutton, I instantly thought ‘NoDak’ and ‘big Michigan Tech guy, had trouble early on in the Sharks system.’ They do a good job of telling you that much during the Olympics, when most people would care. They used to point out that Leetch was an East guy, Hull was a Bulldog and Chelly was a Badger. Same thing in the last Olympics, though Burke put together a very college-heavy squad.

I think it’s also relevant that the NCAA is considered a free development league. Immediate superstars aren’t as common, and it’s harder to lay the marketing groundwork on players in a free dev system than it would be to do it for high draft picks headed into a maximum two year stint in the CHL. But you have the NHL granting money to College Hockey Inc., which basically went to war in the press with the CHL, and you have NCAA alum like Tim Burke in San Jose and Garth Snow (who backstopped Kariya on that ‘93 Maine team) who are picking skill out of the college ranks. I don’t think it’s worse than it used to be or anything.

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Aug 25, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only Canadian NCAA-er I mentioned was Toews and the only American CHLer was Kane. And I pointed them out as the exceptions to the rules, that Toews and Miller are the only NCAA products to get a serious PR push from the NHL and possibly the biggest PR push for an American is a guy who decided not to go to college and instead went through the OHL.

My point was that I believe the NHL is missing out big time by not marketing as many ex-collegiate guys in the US. Sure you (and sometimes I do as well) immediately think of someone like Parise as a Fighting Sioux, the Miller clan as Spartans or Okposo as a Gopher, but we’re in the heavy minority across the US. Again, I am reiterating my point that I think the NHL would be able to draw in many more fans in the Wisconsins, Minnesotas and Dakotas of the US if they marketed the guys who developed there more aggressively.

There are few things in this world I enjoy more than the English getting beaten like a rented mule.

by David Hanssen on Aug 25, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jamie Langenbrunner was a Pete, and a very good one. And every first-year superstar in the NCAA is a seeming exception to the marketing rule. People know where Paul Kariya went to college and the American-born counterpart would probably be DiPietro. It’s much harder to lay a marketing groundwork for a player like Matt Gilroy, who wins the Hobey Baker and NCAA Championship as an undrafted senior. And players like Kariya and DiPietro are just examples that you can grab attention in your draft year from the NCAA. Players still end up choosing the college game for education or its sense of history and tradition. The NHL grant to College Hockey Inc. addresses concerns about the Kanes of the world, because they’re educating prospects on that decision and the possibility of still gaining attention.

But the attention created by the NHL itself once the player joins the league is totally up to the team, and most teams can’t pick up many longterm fans by marketing a player to his home region, not if it isn’t local. Wisconsin residents know Pavelski is with the Sharks now, but would they become Sharks fans from their TV market in Wisconsin, stay Sharks fans if he switches teams? Is there a benefit to San Jose to market him as such and try to even pick up Sharks fans in Wisconsin? As for the Wild, many of the players in the Badgers and Sioux programs are actually from Minnesota, many of the non-athlete students are as well. Do the Wild pick up fans they wouldn’t already have? Do they even pick up Minnesota fans if they are, as Dominik and I described, more concerned with the college or even high school game? I think trading Leddy spoke volumes on what they think building up a local boy can accomplish.

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Aug 25, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dom

Did he interview you? You should post that link too. Interesting to see what other people are asking about us.

by Keith Quinn on Aug 24, 2010 3:15 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Yep

I only got him my answers today though, so I will post a link whenever they are up.

He asked me (before I sent him questions) mostly about Okposo/Ness/college, Rhett, and a bit on 1980. I was predictably long-winded.

Lighthouse Hockey: More defensemen than we know how to spell.

by Dominik on Aug 24, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

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Josh Bailey 12 LW 10/2/1989 190 6-1
Rick DiPietro 39 G 9/19/1981 190 6-1
Mark Eaton 4 D 5/6/1977 215 6-1
Michael Grabner 40 RW 10/5/1987 185 6-0
Travis Hamonic 3 D 8/16/1990 203 6-2
Milan Jurcina 27 D 6/7/1983 253 6-4
Andrew MacDonald 47 D 9/7/1986 196 6-1
Matt Martin 17 LW 3/8/1989 210 6-3
Al Montoya 35 G 2/13/1985 203 6-2
Mike Mottau 10 D 3/19/1978 190 6-0
Matt Moulson 26 LW 11/1/1983 205 6-1
Evgeni Nabokov 20 G 7/25/1975 200 6-0
Nino Niederreiter 25 RW 9/8/1992 205 6-2
Frans Nielsen 51 C 4/24/1984 184 6-0
Kyle Okposo 21 RW 4/16/1988 205 6-0
Jay Pandolfo 29 LW 12/27/1974 190 6-1
P.A. Parenteau 15 LW 3/24/1983 193 6-0
Rhett Rakhshani 49 RW 3/6/1988 190 5-10
Marty Reasoner 16 C 2/26/1977 205 6-1
Dylan Reese 42 D 8/29/1984 201 6-1
Brian Rolston 11 LW 2/21/1973 215 6-2
Steve Staios 24 D 7/28/1973 200 6-1
Mark Streit 2 D 12/11/1977 197 6-0
John Tavares 91 C 9/20/1990 202 6-0
Tim Wallace 36 RW 8/6/1984 207 6-1
Calvin de Haan 44 D 5/9/1991 187 6-1

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