Islanders Enforcer Debate, Episode 72: Yablonski, Yzerman
Regular readers know my views on fighting's bizarre place, so I won't repeat them other than to sum up: As long as fighting's part of the game, enforcers have their place; but enforcers who can't play hockey rarely help you. 'Tis much better to have an actual player who can fight than to have a fighter who cannot play. The enforcers available last summer and this -- Andrew Peters, Donald Brashear, Derek Boogaard -- how do I put this?...They can't really play hockey at the NHL level, which is why the first two were not retained by the teams that signed them, and the third was the recipient of the most widely-mocked contract this summer.
With the signing of Jeremy Yablonski -- an experienced AHL fighter who has hardly sniffed the NHL for a very good reason -- Chris Botta writes:
It was just a year ago that Islanders management laughed at the idea of having frequent fighters in the organization... {snip} ...That’s quite a change in philosophy in one year.
Is it really quite a change though? Last year this organization employed Trevor Gillies, Joel Rechlicz, Micheal Haley, Pascal Morency (remember him?) -- even throw Jeremy Reich in to go with your Tim Jackmans and Nate Thompsons in the "can play a little and is willing to fight" category. All of them candidates to bring various levels of crazy to the big club if needed.
If anything, the Isles have adjusted to add experienced fighters instead of betting on the younger Joel Rechliczes and Mitch Fritzes to develop into something more. Regardless, the same conundrum remains: How do you carry guys who can scare the opposition without bleeding goals at 5-on-5?
On that topic, I found quotes from Popularly Ordained GM Genius of the Summer (and Hall of Famer) Steve Yzerman -- who let Konopka walk, remember -- and his new head coach very interesting:
"I want to improve the skill level and the ability of the team with players who compete hard. Guy [Boucher, the new Lightning coach] uses the term 'first on the puck.' That’s the kind of toughness he wants. He wants guys going in there playing all out. We’re not going to emphasize having to fight. I think it's an over-emphasized part of the game. I think guys who compete hard and are willing to do whatever you have to do to win are more important. Just use Marty St. Louis as an example. He competes hard and is as tough as there is because he’s willing to do whatever he has to do to win a hockey game. That’s the kind of toughness we’re talking about."
Boucher said he isn't necessarily opposed to having an enforcer on the team. But he added, "It always depends. I've had teams with enforcers. I've had teams with no enforcers. I’ve won with both. The reality is you need an enforcer, in my book, if he can play the game. If he can’t play the game it just makes somebody unhappy not playing much. It also prevents some other guys who could bring a lot of stuff on the ice. I’m all for enforcers if they can hog a lot of minutes during the game, use them for penalty kill or against top lines.
Well, that line of thinking sure sounds familiar. (It's interesting that the Lightning elected to re-sign Nate Thompson, the fourth-line center who takes faceoffs a lot and also fights, and elected to let go Zenon Konopka, the fourth-line guy who fights a lot and also takes faceoffs.)
Or how about ex-Islander Ray Ferarro, as discussed a year ago here:
I don't love the fight that has very little purpose in the context of the game. When the heavyweights go at it, who else does it affect? You cheer for your guy, he's your teammate, you don't want him to get hurt and these guys are generally as good a person as you will run into. The fight ends and the game resumes. What's changed? More room on the bench? The heavyweight doesn't play a lot (generally under five minutes) and unless he is a good skater who can throw his weight around, he has minimal impact on the other team's skill players. I was always way more concerned with someone who finished every check with a purpose - think Cal Clutterbuck or Brenden Morrow - than with someone who I was never on the ice against.
It's not their fault, of course: Career-wise, guys end up choosing the fighting route only as a last resort, when they've reached the end of their talent rope, so to speak. They're all talented enough to get to juniors or the AHL, they're just not in that upper-upper elite of world talent that typically makes the NHL. Meanwhile, guys like Brashear tend to fight less once they're established, because let's be honest: Who wants to do this toughest of jobs, night after night, against young up-and-comers who want to steal your job by out-crazying you, if you can rest a bit on hard-earned reputation instead? It's thankless labor, its only reward being a tenuous NHL job, a nice (if brief) salary, and fan popularity before your body breaks down.
But the reality of NHL hockey is that while fans are gazing their eyes at the potential heavyweight fight that sells tickets and enlivens arenas, NHL coaches are trying to get that matchup where their talented forwards can skate circles around the other team's one-trick pony and slap him with a minus-2 for his six minutes of time on ice.
'Team Toughness' is an Ambiguous Chemistry Experiment
That's not to say you can employ a team of pacifists and survive an 82-game season though. It's just that this stuff is hard: "Team toughness" is a nuanced phenomenon that involves intimidation of, or at least respect from, the other team -- as well as the very real-but-hard-to-quantify "self-belief" among your troops. It is a difficult thing to build, as it requires everybody to buy in, and sometimes those buyers are a bunch of kids like the Islanders. It can be enhanced by the signing of one scary guy, but it cannot be solved by the over-commitment to one bad hockey player. GMs are wise to tread carefully.
Obviously the Islanders were rarely "toughened up" by Rechlicz's or Fritz's presence. It seems they needed a steadier hand, a guy who knew the ropes from years of reading pro players, pro refs and pro coaches to get a feel for the game. It seems Gillies provided that spark, a veteran's steady hand, one that influenced the lineup, which is why his one-game Flyers callup in mid-winter evolved into a longer stay and a contract extension. (Let's not forget, though, that Gillies took stupid penalties against the Flyers early in his call-up.)
But that doesn't mean this ephemeral "toughness" is as simple as adding an enforcer or two. Ask Rangers fans about the Brashear Experience. Ask Devils fans about the Peters Experience. Every year, the cries from Islanders faithful are the same: "We need a real enforcer!" But that need is easier said than fulfilled. Some of these guys do more harm than good, including the "name" enforcers everyone calls for (How did Georges Laraque's year go?).
So, What is the Islanders Philosophy Here?
I suspect the reason the Islanders have played around in this non-name-brand area the last two seasons is because enforcers just aren't worth long-term roster spots or multi-million-dollar contracts. Due to the nature of their job, you can't count on them to be healthy, and when you take away their immediate incentive -- the hunger to earn another contract and keep the dream alive -- you get the Brashears of the world who leave teams wondering why they don't fight like they used to. As it is, their competence at 5-on-5 is always tenuous at best, so why risk committing long to a guy whose limited ability is apt to fall off a cliff?
So maybe you do what the Islanders did last season and this coming season: You accumulate two-way deals on fighters who can swing from the AHL to the NHL and back. That way if you lose one on waivers upon the next demotion, you have backups in the arsenal. And you don't block a guy who can play more than 5 minutes a game against decent competition without getting schooled in all those other important parts of hockey, like scoring and preventing goals.
So has the Islanders' philosophy experienced an about-face? I don't think so. But it has been refined: Instead of young Joel Rechlicz -- who, please remember, played five games for the Isles in the first half of October last year, before they decided he didn't fit -- they're going with the more experienced Gillies, who paid a dividend or two last year. And on the fourth line, instead of having a faceoff guy and fourth-liner who can fight in Nate Thompson, they're going with a more prolific and scarier fighter who can take faceoffs in Konopka.
The comparative results of this subtle shift -- both on Long Island and in Tampa -- are going to be fun to watch.
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Thats why I hope
Matt Martin makes the team. tough, big, fights, can play more than 2 minutes. Will not let guys take liberties out there (Phaneuf!!!!!) and hopefully Hamonic will in one or 2 years add that to our defense. Its time the Prongers and other clowns (Cooke, Ruutu, Avery) fear us instead of looking to to see when they can take a cheap shot at our young guys
Those guys
Those are the guys you hope become the “whatever it takes to win” types who can also play a little. Taking one example, physically speaking in the finals Pronger had to worry about Byfuglien, not Eager or Burish.
I confess, I loved Snow and Gordon for having the guts to go against the grain a bit on enforcers — but partly that’s because I believe there’s little value to signing a full-time name guy over a hungry AHL guy. It didn’t work out when they went young, but hopefully guys like Gillies can provide the big fights when needed while the Martin types take care of making every third/fourth shift a physical affair.
Lighthouse Hockey: Adapting forecasts to the disturbance known as Nino.
I agree...
but I’m still on a fence when it comes to usage. There is still a bad taste left by sitting Fritz when Sutter was throwing out the "I’ll kick your ass on the scoreboard, I’ll kick your ass on the ice, in a hallway, or in your mother’s basement " flag. It appears that Gordon has a dog he feels comfortable with in Gillies… but the idea that he hasn’t gotten the kids to take an ass kicking if you have to worries me a little.
Bergy, good player who dropped them to stand up for a teammate when he had to… gone.
As a matter of fact 95% of the fighting majors in the Gordon Era are GONE… Jackman, Thompson, Wrecker, Sutton, Witt…
We can’t pin all that responsibility on Martin. The team needs to get some “mean”… especially the stronger players at the top… yeah Kyle, I’M LOOKING AT YOU!
Once, when he takes a two hander away from the puck I’d like to see him turn around and make a stand, instead of smiling, and saying something like, “You know, violence just begets violence”
The NY Islanders are about to redo the salary cap floor with russian marble!
I just don’t know if Kyle has that type in him. He seems fiery but not glove-dropping combative, like so many of the other forwards (Bailey, Frans, JT, Moulson…Nino?)
But usage is a big question. Could Gordon put some fire into them? Or is that when he’d lose them, as it’s not in their nature? This is why i don’t understand the reluctance to go after an Asham or Laperriere (last summer). I see those guys as a mix of both; did the Isles only see them as glorified/more expensive versions Jackman and Thompson? Am I misguided to think Asham + Laperriere > than Jackman + Thompson?
Lighthouse Hockey: Adapting forecasts to the disturbance known as Nino.
This is where he needs to grow, me thinks.
Could Gordon put some fire into them? Or is that when he’d lose them, as it’s not in their nature?
There were plenty of times over the last two seasons that in between periods the guys didn’t need the dry erase board, they needed the [Henry V] St. Crispian’s Day speech. or maybe a little “once more into the breach”…
Sometimes it looks like he just shows the beanpot shuffle video… especially between the second and third periods…when they’re winning.
The NY Islanders are about to redo the salary cap floor with russian marble!
I agree
with you and Yzerman.
an enforcer is great if he can enforce at times but also play the PK and he has to play without taking th epenaltysometimes. Draw a penalty when th eteam is looking for a spark without taking a penalty
by Rickfansince76 on Jul 22, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
They need to load up on heavy hitters that can still play rather than pure fighters. The Steve Webbs, the Eric Cairns’s, the Kasparaitis’s, the Rich Pilons. I remember during the dark days – the previous dark days – Pilon driving Lindros nuts in every matchup.
heavy hitters that can still play rather than pure fighters
You mean like Tim Jackman.
Oh wait, we didnt re-sign him… and he was snapped up right away.
Granted he was snapped up for a song, but still- he is a guy who can do some of both. And people still bashed him because he wasnt great at one or the other!
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Jul 22, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
TJ... the OTHER WHITE MEAT.
I was pretty impressed with Jackman in his first few weeks of the Gordon Era. He seemed to be a totally different player. One who could slide up and down the lineup, be a second line grinder or a fourth line checking tough guy… but he was just below the mason dixon line in every role. That doesn’t make him a bad guy, actually he’s a great value for whoever picks him up… maybe when he recovers from his injuries he will continue to progress… but I’d rather see Martin get his TOI and… score more… win fights… get PP time as crease jammer… and be that guy you tap on the shoulder when the time comes to DISH OUT PAIN… Jackman was kinda like Steve Webb in that he was a valiant warrior, but he rarely won his battles… and sometimes that’s just a buzz kill… because when the other team needs a boost they know who will be willing… but unable.
The NY Islanders are about to redo the salary cap floor with russian marble!
this is true
Sad, but true. I mean… Jackman? Zenon? Thompson? Much of a muchness. Then there are guys a step up on the skill scale whose main function is still to throw their weight around, or otherwise vex – Carcillo, Avery… And so on, through the Byufgliens and Ashams of the world, to the elites who are either supreme enforcers with a high skill set (Probert, Tiger Williams) or else superb players who could also wreck you at need (Cam Neely, Clark Gillies).
The main reason to play buys like Martin and Joensuu are to see if they can jump from “we can get that anywhere for league minimum” to “he brings something extra and it will be hard to replace him.” Zenon isn’t going to suddenly score 20 goals and play shutdown PK as well as punish the wayward elbowers of the world. We already know his ceiling. Martin and Joensuu still have to find theirs. If it’s lower or even, well, then we will know. If higher, then the team comes out way ahead.
My latest contract is for 31 years.
Thats the thing
actually he’s a great value for whoever picks him up… maybe when he recovers from his injuries he will continue to progress… but I’d rather see Martin get his TOI
Its not like they didnt keep Tim and they are gonna put MM in his place, they picked up all these other guys! I dont see how MM is going to get ice time IF these guys are in front of him in the depth chart.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Jul 22, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
MM is a LW...
They haven’t done anything at LW. MM can easily replace Jackman’s roster spot, and in time be more valuable (I hope) than Bergy… If they plant two seeds this year I hope Martin is one. His biggest “depth chart” challenge may be if Bailey moves permanently to the LW, then the chart looks like:
Moulson
Bailey… if not, maybe Joensuu gets a shot… or there are still some valid UFA’s for this role.
Parenteau(?)
Martin/Gillies
Did I miss anybody?
The NY Islanders are about to redo the salary cap floor with russian marble!
Plus Martin will get PP time if he makes the team, something Jackman didn’t. Not to mention I’m still a firm believer that not any forward we signed is a lock to make the team if he is out played in camp by one of the rooks, its not like their contracts are hard to swallow if they don’t go somewhere else.
It's easy for Stevie Y to take the high ground...
Not like the Southeast division is known for it’s toughness.
Wheel of Location, Turn Turn Turn. Tell us the location that we will play.
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Yzerman is using his most recent Red Wings experience, I can’t think of a Red Wing enforcer since Probert and Kocur. Punching and tough are two different animals in my book. You need to be tough to take a punch, but not fighting doesn’t mean you aren’t wiling to take a hit. I go back to my belief that Bossy was tough because he was willing to take the punishment in front of the net and never dropped the gloves. Unfortunately, not all players are equally tough and they need someone that can police the other team to provide some security.
Yzerman’s wings had team toughness because they knew with their skill level they would punish you if you took liberties. They also had the respect of the referees, which I think is the biggest “toughness” factor with the Islanders. The opposing team is allowed too many liberties because the Islandes best player haven’t been in the NHL long enough to earn the respect or to intimidate the officials.
Yzerman is using his most recent Red Wings experience,
In more ways than one, it’s going to be fun to see if he can replicate the Detroit model in any meaningful way. Detroit has the advantage of great staff and being a destination franchise for those important pieces who might play there for a little less money; I guess TB has sun and beaches and wife/GF-pleasing beaches.
I go back to my belief that Bossy was tough because he was willing to take the punishment in front of the net and never dropped the gloves.Anyone who ever professes this automatically gains free* lifetime membership to Lighthouse Hockey.
*plus shipping and handling
Lighthouse Hockey: Adapting forecasts to the disturbance known as Nino.
I must admit I still did enjoy Clark Gillies playing his favorite percussion instrument – Terry O’Reilly’s face.
Gillies is a great example of Stevie Y's philosophy
Number of seasons in which Clark Gillies had 100 or more PIM in a season: zero.
Basically, he didn’t need to beat people on a regular basis… just enough. He was also skilled enough so that Al Arbour didn’t want him going out of his way to sit in the box for five minutes; it had to be a special occasion.
My latest contract is for 31 years.
Al + Clark = PERFECTION
I’m pretty sure it was during the 1980 playoffs when Creighton(?) [Boston] tried to go Bishop for knight. He had O’rielly instigate two fights with Gillies early. Then Arbour messed up his plan by sending Howatt out to take on O’rielly… not only did O’Rielly take three beatings (a beaten Terry O’Rielly was no match for a fresher and strong little bastard in Howatt) but he got gamed. The Isles retained thier top LW and the bruins lost O’rielly in the first half of the game. That set the tone for that series… because Al had a team that could beat you any way you wanted to play… and that’s why they will always be the best team to ever lace them up… from the GM down to the fourth line grinders… they all had a role and they all respected each other.
The NY Islanders are about to redo the salary cap floor with russian marble!
Personally I can never get enough of this clip
Wheel of Location, Turn Turn Turn. Tell us the location that we will play.
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
by WebBard on Jul 22, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Holy!
Dude, I never realized you made that one. That’s sublime beauty!
Lighthouse Hockey: Adapting forecasts to the disturbance known as Nino.
Awesome...
I wonder if there is some footage of Gillies making Campbell hurt somewhere?
The NY Islanders are about to redo the salary cap floor with russian marble!
Bossy...
I agree… Bossy did take a beating on occaision… but it never got out of hand because NOBODY wanted to deal with Gillies…. Not only that… they had stronger, tougher D that never get any credit for dishing it out…(Langevin, Lane, Potvin) and what about the idea that … “If I take a swipe at Bossy, Smitty might chop me in half”
Which brings me to Mr. Smith… who wins the Conn Smythe and goes on National telivision with a beer in his hand and says, [paraphrasing] “yeah, it was a bad call, I rolled around like I was shot, but that’s what that little [you know] Gretzky did… IT WORKS BOTH WAYS”
That’s why he could never be in PR! BS=NO BS!
The NY Islanders are about to redo the salary cap floor with russian marble!
good times
Seeing Smitty glide by in the background with that can of Bud after the ’83 clincher was pure gold.
My latest contract is for 31 years.
Smitty post-game
Nothing crystallizes all that is right and hilarious about that era than that moment.
Lighthouse Hockey: Adapting forecasts to the disturbance known as Nino.
I’m all for having an enforcer sit around and occasionally make his presence felt. But I agree with Stevie Y and pretty much anyone here, that enforcer needs to be able to play. They can not be a liability or a distraction. If they are, they are not doing their job. It is one thing to agitate, a la Avery or Carcillo, and it is one thing to take bad penalties and put your team down and out, a la Gillies (only at times last year. He did calm down, and that’s what the Isles are counting on).
However, rather than have the tough guy to stand up and beat people down, having a good power play is a great answer as well. If Team X knows you will go out there and score at a 30% clip, they won’t take the chance to go down a man. A successful power play is a great way to be the enforcer. Now, the refs may miss a few (or a lot), and that’s where the other, enforcer guy on the ice comes in. It is up to the enforcer to make up for the refs missing a call. But he better not go to the box alone.
The perfect person Stevy Y is talking about is...
MILAN LUCIC.
Milan plays a hard, strong game and is willing to fight for his team. He puts a ton of effort into every shift and make sure he gets a few goals along the way.
Here is his NHL stats (games played, goals, assists, PIM)
07-08: 77 – 8 – 19 – 89
08-09: 72 – 17 – 25 – 136
09-10: 50 – 9 – 11 – 44
Milan will be a consistent 10-15 goal scorer in which most of these goals come front planting his butt in front of the net. Many of his minutes are racked up in 5 min fighting majors.
Matt Martin is the Isles’ Milan. Milan is 6’3" 205lbs. Martin is 6’2" 192lbs. They have comparable size and comparable style of games.
I would take Milan on the Isles any day. He is one of my top 5 NHL players.
We need a deterant to protect our young stars
One who can play would be a our dream, but a guy who can handle himself is not a deterant, a la Matt Martin. Thats team toughness. We need that fear factor, and if he is a guy you don’t care if he sits for five, none the worse.
Where we gonna spend our money?
On a separate note I think the Yablonski signing is insurance for when Gillies doesn’t make the team. That way if we lose him on waivers we have a back-up.
That's my theory too
The risk of employing older enforcers is that they’re a waiver risk (minimal, but still a risk) when you put them on the Bridgeport shuttle. So collect a few just in case.
Lighthouse Hockey: Adapting forecasts to the disturbance known as Nino.
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