Bits: Defending the Halak trade; Isles return to Saskatoon?
According to the Calgary Flames just-announced preseason schedule, the Islanders are returning to Saskatoon at least to face the Flames Sept. 29. Whether they hold an extended portion of training camp there now that the China trip is off, I'm sure we'll hear official word when they see an opportune time for an announcement.
Chris Botta, via at least two scouts, says don't forget Alex Burmistrov, the talented Russian center in the OHL, for the Isles' #5 pick. I confess I'm Russian-shy at this point, even though Burmistrov has done everything in his power to show his intent to play in the NHL. The risk, for me, is that kids can change their minds: Nikita Filatov said all the right things, but when the going got rough, well... Meanwhile, when a North American prospect hits hard times in his development, or when he gets tough love from the coach, he is much less likely to have friends and family whisper, "You know, you could make more money and be more comfortable in the KHL." That's a risk, no matter what a kid tells you at 18. Some other links:
- The Draft Party is one week from today. Lots of details in one place here. If you're out of town (as I am and will be), you can follow along on the official site's Islanders TV.
- Last summer, I advocated Adrian Aucoin as a good stopgap signing and powerplay helper. I think he would have helped, but that was last year. This summer, he's already off the table, signing a 2-year extension in Phoenix.
- In Lou We Trust reacts to the Devils hiring John MacLean as coach.
Finally, if you panned the Jaroslav Halak deal yesterday like a lot of people did, I have several arguments for you to consider:
Lars Eller Will Be GoodIt's a natural tendency, when you haven't heard of a prospect, to think, "They traded a playoff hero for whom?" I know the feeling; I ignore most teams' prospects myself. But Lars Eller was a first-round pick, a well-regarded big center with a good shot, and he had a good year playing tough minutes in the AHL. He goes to the traffic areas, and he plays smart. Many of you know I watch a lot of Blues games, and I'm sorry to see them send him away. He has a better shot than Frans Nielsen (though likely not a better shootout move, of course), shows similar hockey intelligence though probably more offense and is less defensive-minded. Still, Eller is five years younger, so there's time there, just like there's time with the goalie still in Montreal.
Bottom line: The Habs did not get scraps for Halak; they got a good center who could help them as soon as this season. Pierre Gauthier sure thinks so, and so does his counterpart in St. Louis. For context, the Blues wouldn't part with Eller for Minnesota's Josh Harding.
Halak's Hot Playoff Screamed, 'Sell High'
This argument won't sway many of you because Halak was a hero for a month there, but the spread of talent among NHL-caliber goaltenders really isn't that wide. I don't advocate looking at hockey players in strictly economic terms (individual players are humans, not robots; assessing them requires observation, not just spreadsheets), but I do think that should weigh heavily into personnel decisions. Halak is 25 and has played under 100 NHL games (over 100 if you count this year's playoffs). That's not a lot: 100 games is enough to get Jim Carey the Vezina and Andrew Raycroft the Calder. Halak is clearly good, but we do not know how good -- or rather, we do not know how much better he is than Price. Gabe Desjardins covered this a couple of months ago at Behind the Net Hockey. Just as that post mentions how Halak faced fewer PK minutes, WebBard's FanPost calls attention to the fact he faced more weaker teams.
Carey Price is a couple of years younger and still regarded as having higher "upside." Whether that will prove true is the crux of what this deal was made on. Like I said, I don't view players strictly in economic terms; what some statheads call pop psychology I call the reality of human frailties. So if Price is indeed the type who will wilt thanks to the ridiculous pressures and reactions in Montreal, then the Habs lose. If Halak really is a special overachiever and cool head who can filter out distraction and defeat doubters, the Habs maybe made the wrong choice.
But if Price is just a good goalie who has the hiccups you'd expect of a kid at his age (23 in August), well, the Canadiens had to choose between the two, and they chose the cheaper of the two who they believe will be just as good or better. They also chose to deal the one who would probably fetch the best return among NHL GM's, and Halak's hot spring means that was him.
Bottom line: If you have two goalies you believe in and you're living on a budget, sell the one who'll fetch more, and sign the one who has the lowest leverage at the contract negotiation table.
The Goalie Market
But shouldn't the Habs have gotten more? Many have asked that. Aside from my view that a lot of people asking that don't know who Eller is, the other questions are, "What did they want?" and "What do goalies fetch?" Eller is on his entry-level contract, which I believe is key for the Habs. The Habs don't have a lot of cap room, and they want to re-sign Tomas Plekanec. (Incidentally, center depth of Scott Gomez-Plekanec-Eller isn't too shabby, if Plekanec is for real.)
The Habs possibly could have gotten more known players for Halak, but I'm betting they needed someone who is still cheap but is ready to contribute. That's Lars Eller.
But beyond that, as many have observed, the goalie market in today's NHL is not the one we knew just a few years ago. Teams reach the finals without "name" goaltenders, while superstar goalies prove quite fallible. Is the reason perhaps that any goalie good enough to make the NHL is good enough to have a hot two months? Perhaps the spread in talent isn't as wide as it once was (or as we once thought)? You know my answer.
So not only is the market for NHL goalies undefined -- clearly some teams believe they should spend a lot, while others do not -- it's also flooded. It appears to be getting more so each summer, as more teams come to the same conclusion. In that Pierre LeBrun column, Islander-for-one-more-week Martin Biron has taken notice, too, though he beats around the bush:
"The free-agent period isn't like it was when I started in this league. It's changed the last few years. There's a real crapshoot element to it. Teams are more patient. So are the players. It took me until July 22 last year, and it was a situation I never even thought of three weeks before that."
It's changed, because the market is flooded! And it's flooded, because teams realize they don't have to pay gobs of money for perceived messiahs anymore.
Personally, I think this is because goaltending has become a standardized, well-trained position. Video of the best goalies is widespread. Technique and training is far more uniform than 10 and 20 years ago. Unlike offense, there is not a whole lot of room for individual creativity that can make a difference. If you are an elite athlete with quality fundamental training and a level head, there's a clear path to how you can get by in the NHL. But there are only 60 jobs.
So if previously uninspiring Michael Leighton or Antti Niemi are good enough to get you to the finals -- or hell, 9th-round pick Jaroslav Halak is good enough to get you two rounds -- then why pay a big price for a name goalie when there are so many adequate ones on the free agent market?
Bottom Line: Halak's buzz from the playoffs does not change the fact there are plenty of (mostly) cheap goalies out there. The Blues even nearly decided to sign one of them [well, at an asking price of nearly $4 million, Mason wasn't cheap.].
Which brings us to ... why did the Blues do this if they had one of those existing goalies, Chris Mason, willing to re-sign?
One Last Word for Pop Psychology
One factor may have been money: Mason is 34 and reportedly wanted three years at $3.75 million, while the Blues stopped at $3.25 million. That's not a huge difference, but the Blues are a team on a budget. They probably want to be sure before committing that much term and salary, and Mason gave them reason to be unsure. Yes, I think there's a bigger reason, and it has to do with the nebulous world of psychology.
If Chris Mason hadn't shown a habit of giving up backbreaking soft goals in the middle of otherwise strong performances, I don't think the Blues make this deal.
Like most NHL goalies, Mason had his moments of fantastic saves and "stolen" victories. But among Blues fans (and you have to wonder if among management and teammates, too), what should probably be seen as a fluke or selective observation was starting to become a trend of soft goals at poor times. A trend that was repeated by Mason for Team Canada at the World Championships. It's how the Blues lost their elimination game in OT against Vancouver two playoffs ago (bad-angle goal, five-hole).
I think the Blues got to the point where they didn't want to commit like that to a goalie who left lingering doubts in pressure moments when they had another option who they just saw thrive in the biggest pressure moments of all. (But remember: Halak was blown out once in each playoff series this postseason.)
Of course, they had to spend a very good prospect for this perceived "upgrade" in goal and his perceived pressure-game abilities. Which leaves the final evaluation at three questions:
- Will Halak prove to be better than Mason? (Probably. Mason career sv%: .913; Halak's: .919)
- Will Halak prove to be better than Mason by enough of a margin to make dealing Eller worth it? (We'll see. .919 vs. .913 is less than one goal difference for every 100 shots. But Halak is nine years younger, and his record is still young)
- The Blues hadn't negotiated with Halak yet; will they be able to sign him for less than Mason was asking for, or did they just pay two prospects for the right to pay a different goalie the same or more than they would have had to pay Mason?
Bottom line: These two teams took the bets on opposite sides of a coin flip: The Blues wagered Eller on the bet that Halak is something more special than your average free agent, and that his contract demands won't sink the plan. The Canadiens bet that Price will be just s good, and cheaper in the near-term.
What's This Mean for the Islanders?
Not a whole lot, of course. With Nathan Lawson due a qualifying offer and Kevin Poulin coming into the system to join Mikko Koskinen, they may not even be interested in a Biron replacement to add to the Dwayne Roloson/Rick DiPietro* mix at the NHL level.
But I do like the way Garth Snow has set the Islanders up in goal for the future: They have three nice bets in Koskinen, Poulin and Anders Nilsson. If one meets expectations, great. If two do, one day they may be able to pull off their own Halak trade.
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No to Burmistrov
Too small, we don’t need centers that badly, not the same talent level as Gudbranson or Nino. More like a 10-15 pick…maybe 6-10.
6-1 is too small? come on that’s being picky… and his situation isn’t all that diff from nino, came over to play the NA style and show he what he can do, and did quite well, and you get too hung up on positions, # 1 baseball prospect in the country, Bryce Harper, best power potential since the Straw-man according to scouts, not only has he been catching, but calling his own game (not letting the manager relay pitches in) since he was 11 years old… the Nat’s selected him and announced him as an OF… not because they ’don’t need’ a catcher, because they feel he’ll get to the bigs faster as an OF and he’ll enjoy a healthier longer career there… – my point, he was by far the BPA in the draft and they didn’t compromise on player because of position – if the isles feel Burm is the guy, they wont sweat their C depth
clean and sober for 2 months and change... only thing different is that now i KNOW i'm the asshole everyone says i am :-)
150 pounds soaking wet is too small
A scout placed him at 146 pounds and his listed weight is 159, so I split the difference. As the scout said, “he’s built like Gilligan.” No doubt he’ll bulk up a bit, but unless he’s the next Gretzky, we don’t need anymore undersized centers, we have enough. If I am going for a Russian center, I will draft Telegin. He is already over 190 pounds and will likely bulk up to over 200 lbs and is 6’2". He would make a fine linemate for Petrov and maybe Ullstrom. And he would only take a second rounder.
If Bjugstad slipped to 35 would you still take Telegin?
One thing about Burmistrov: he may always be on the skinny side, but at 6’1", he can expect to fill out to 180 or so. In some ways his success in juniors at his current size is more impressive.
(Heck, I was 6’ 0" and 145 pounds when I was 20 – now I’m up around that without any specialized weight training or nutrition at all!)
My secret? I eat “Little Chocolate Donuts.”
Of course I'm an expert, I've seen Slap Shot eleven times!
I think 180 pounds is optimistic and is still too small
We need some big guys. This team is too undersized and too easily pushed around. I do not see Bjugstad being available in the second round. He is likely an early to mid first rounder. Fellow Minnesotan Brock Nelson might be available and is worth considering. I was looking at Telegin partly because I liked what I saw on a video and partly because I imagine he might be a good linemate chemistry-wise for Petrov.
the combine list had him at 5’ 11.5" and 157lbs, but CB said he’s at 6’ 1" 185, HF has 5’10 170… i wish there was an official listing from the actual combine results but i cant find one
clean and sober for 2 months and change... only thing different is that now i KNOW i'm the asshole everyone says i am :-)
If you mean Burmistrov
no way is he 170 pounds much less 185. A scout who had seen him without gear (and presumably had seen him weighed) had him at 146. Even allowing that he might have bulkeds since the scout saw him (although the comment was in THN’s Draft Preview published recently) no way is he more than 160 pounds.
Goalie Glut
Great analysis Dominik. However, I didn’t share your enthusiasm for Snow’s work after last year’s draft. I thought taking a goalie with the first pick in the 2nd round was a waste of an opportunity to stock the skill cupboard. And I was then flabbergasted he took another so soon. In fact, if good goalies are so easy to come by, and those goalies are all just as liable to go on a 2 month hot streak, why should a team ever draft a goalie?
When to draft goalies
Thanks. I thought both picks were “too early” to take a goalie, though I’m still happy with the status of their goalie depth right now. if Mikko was on other teams’ radars (supposedly he was), I was happy with that use of an early pick because Mikko was a late bloomer who was closer to NHL-ready, having passed through two drafts and apparently figured out how to use his now-giraffe-like body. Special case for him, and probably special case for the Islanders since they have this theoretically long-term #1 goalie who had the strong potential to fall apart (and did, again) at a moment’s notice. Most teams aren’t tied to that kind of huge investment mixed with huge uncertainty.
I was disappointed they took Nilsson immediately afterward, but there was a clear need to improve the system depth (and at that point, it was questionable whether Poulin or Ridderwall would look as decent as they did a year later). Also, at the time you could still draft a Swede and count on hanging on to his rights for longer than two years — before the transfer agreement, it was convenient and wise to use Scandinavia as a long-range incubator for your goalie prospects.
So overall, I agree: No need to draft a goalie early. I cringe when I hear people talking about drafting Jack Campbell in the teens, because no matter what the guy looks like at 18, his projection is so much less certain than a skater. But you do need to draft them, because the draft is still a route to cheap talent and you need to have some of that available and growing in your ssytem so that you’re not scrambling (and gambling) on Michael Leighton mid-season.
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Points taken about cheap inventory stocking – just not so early in the draft! I also wouldn’t want to be scrambling and gambling at the trade deadline but I could live with Roloson/Biron type signings in the off-season. Not every year but perhaps 2 years at a time [a la Rollie] until one of our cheap inventory pans out and he’s ours for 5 years, or [hopefully] more.
in the words of bugs bunny "what a maroon!"
FYI, fantasy (and NBC owned) site, rotoworld.com has a nice mock draft up,
here’s the top 10
1.hall
2.seguin
3.gudbranson
4.gormley
5.campbell
6.fowler
7.nino
8.johansen
9.connolly
10.tarasenko
5. New York Islanders Jack Campbell (G). While I have not heard any talk of Campbell in this spot, the Islanders cannot rely on a return from Rick DiPietro who has missed most of the last two seasons with injury. Campbell is a stud and proved it at the World Junior Championships and the Under-18 as he led the United States to gold in both tournaments.
clean and sober for 2 months and change... only thing different is that now i KNOW i'm the asshole everyone says i am :-)
Thats got to be the worst mock draft yet. Do they pay no attention to a teams prospects?
The Islanders went from Marty McInnis and a 2nd Overall pick to Jesse Joensuu.
haha, he qualifies his ignorance too before he goes into it, some other choice lines…
Burmistrov may be wooed by the KHL and that could drop his stock as far as the draft is concerned, but he definitely is a top-15 talent in this draft.
and on seguin (with typo)
Do not be surprised if the Bruins trade down as they really want Hall. If they do not get him, someone will jump up to take Seguin. Seguin is a playmaking center who was forced to shoot more often with the Whalers due to a lack of talent around him. He is a big soft but has outstanding offensive skills.
clean and sober for 2 months and change... only thing different is that now i KNOW i'm the asshole everyone says i am :-)
Just wow
Campbell to the Isles at five? Are we sure that’s not Milbury writing under a pen name?
Of course I'm an expert, I've seen Slap Shot eleven times!
Campbell would have to be From Boston.
The Islanders went from Marty McInnis and a 2nd Overall pick to Jesse Joensuu.
hahahahaha
With a name like “Jack Campbell” maybe he DOES think he’s from Boston.
Then again, we don’t have a healthy goalie to trade to anyone for a large, enigmatic Russian winger who magically vanishes on 85% of his shifts, so there’s that to think of.
Of course I'm an expert, I've seen Slap Shot eleven times!
There were similarly unreal mocks on BR
One had the Isles picking Campbell at #5 and another Pickard. When I questioned the first one about it, he said he knew about Poulin and liked him but had some idea about Garth drafting Campbell and making a trade.
Copycat syndrom
I think what we’re seeing is one guy throwing the Campbell dart out there, and others following along because it sounded like a hot tip. Despite a simple bit of homework they could have done: Imagine drafting two goalies in the first three rounds last year, followed by burning one early in the first this!
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What a stupid Mock draft.
Seriously- a goalie? Dumbasses.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Jun 18, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
why should a team ever draft a goalie?
It was this very attitude that created a serious weakness at goal that Garth absolutely had to address in the last draft. Unlike a previous GM who thought he had to draft a goaltender in a certain position to make a big splash, Garth picked the guys he wanted and drafted them where he felt he needed to in order to acquire them.
Two different attitudes
I’m going to parse here: The attitude before was MM thinking he could both identify and draft a savior at age 18 at the top of the draft…followed by forcing him into the lineup ASAP.
The “why ever draft a goalie” question is more about their far less certain development path, the fact they take longer to reach serviceable form even when that path goes well, and the theory that there are always decent replacements available on the aftermarket.
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I still hold by my logic, if DiPietro wasn’t from Boston College and a Boston area native, Milbury never would have drafted him.
The Islanders went from Marty McInnis and a 2nd Overall pick to Jesse Joensuu.
It’s like the Canadiens with French-Canadians, except with just a tad less success.
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What defines and how do you identify
…“a quality #1?” That’s the point. The last six finalists consisted of Chris Osgood, Micheal Leighton, Antti Niemi, and Marc-Andre Fleury. That’s a buffet of adequately average.
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which is why you bring up the right guy through your system
the Rangers plaoff drought would be reaching historic proportions had they not drafted HL and been patient with him.
Saskatoon
Had to sign in with my old account, hadn’t joined yet with the new one.
Anyways, Dom, the Saskatoon game has been on sale here for quite some time. I think it’s sold out, not too sure, though. But no preseason arrangements have been made like last year, but maybe something will be rushed together, I don’t know. The assumption always was training camp in China, preseason game here, and nothing more. Obviously the China part has changed, but there always was a preseason game scheduled no matter what.
Hockey blogging can't get any flatter.
Thanks, Bruce! I’d read a couple places that the China trip caused them to “cancel a previous commitment” to play an exhibition in Saskatoon, but I did wonder if that was just an incorrect conclusion.
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What if...
If Halak was French-Canadian do you think Montreal would have made this move?
My guess is no.
The Habs had to choose between the two, since they couldn’t justify keeping both. Obviously, in Montreal, French Canadian means something, so it would have entered their thinking.
I have a fourth question to throw into the mix. If St Louis had negotiate with and signed Halak to a RFA Offer Sheet,what would they have given up? More or less than the more or less established prospects they have now given up?
by Nova Scotia Isles Fan on Jun 18, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
It depends on how much the offer sheet was for (the compensation is based on average salary in the offer, which for 2010-11 I don’t have), but at minimum it probably would have been a 1st and a 3rd, and possibly a 1st, 2nd and 3rd.
So in a sense they gave up an already developing 1st and 3rd in Eller and Schultz, though with the guarantee that they actually got their man and didn’t break the NHL GM implied code of avoiding RFA sheets.
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French-Canadien
Heh, interesting question. They did give up Latendresse earlier this year.
I like that Gauthier was cold and calculating with this — it takes brass balls to trade the goalie who captured your fans’ hearts for five weeks in the spring. So I’d bet background wouldn’t have stopped him. The biggest factors is that they had both goalies heading into RFA, and they did not appear to want to pay both.
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you hope that they decided solely on the basis that
they thought Price would become the better goalie.
No Offense to Biron...
But when your looking for 4.5 million in a crowded goalie market, your going to have trouble. Especially since in his final season in Philly he nearly lost the starter’s job to Nittymaki 2 or 3 times. Nitty preformed just as weakly and Biron kept the job by default.
The whole death of the Elite goalie in the NHL is a bit overblown. The reason you pay Luongo, Brodeur, Nabokov, Lundquist and so on their money is the regular season. Obviously you want to win in the playoffs, and an elite goalie should normally be the difference. But Winning teams mean better attendance. Just getting into the playoffs means more money. I posted that article that said MSG was going to lose 30 million just because the Rangers didn’t make the playoffs.
I’m going to look into it more, but I think the league’s top goalies were effected by the Olympics. Both Stanley Cup finalists had goalies who didn’t go to Vancouver. Given to how prickly goalies can be, taking them and sending them off to the Olympics might have caused them to go into a rut.
The Islanders went from Marty McInnis and a 2nd Overall pick to Jesse Joensuu.
The reason you pay Luongo, Brodeur, Nabokov, Lundquist and so on their money is the regular season. Obviously you want to win in the playoffs, and an elite goalie should normally be the difference. But Winning teams mean better attendance.
True that, I think. You need the consistency to help you get there, and then you take your chances in the playoffs and hope it’s your year. And I don’t know how you put a value on it, but avoiding constant goalie soap operas is good for the entire environment of the team, from paying fans to the teammates who think the guy in net really is worth fighting for.
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what some statheads call pop psychology I call the reality of human frailties.
I know this belongs in the realm of pure speculation, but this trade left me wondering about Gauthier’s human side as well. It’s not that Price doesn’t have a lot of potential upside, as you say, but I wonder if there’s still a lot of emotional investment in him since PG was director of scouting when Price was taken fifth overall. There may be a mixture of reason and Vegas-slot mentality here: it was the right choice, and it is going to pay off, it just has to!
The other bit of weirdness about the trade also raises some flags for me — the fact that he didn’t even try talking to Halak’s agent. I mean, even if he’d already made the decision solely based on logic and reason, it would have paid to at least go through the motions and talk salary a bit. That way he’d be able to quote some impressively high number to the media, and not seem so much like a jerk. I don’t know, there was also the Demitra trade that the Ottawa press is bringing up…it has the air of a power move to me.
That said, I realize this is all wild speculation and I have no way of getting in his head. But I do think he could have gotten a decent return for Price as well, saturated market or no. He would have been cheap with a lot of potential, the very reasons the Habs retained him. And if they make the playoffs again next year, it’s going to be hard to top Halak’s run. No pressure, kid.
In Dinglebarn We Trust
actually I think Halak’s agent might have been part of the reason for him being traded, he was being a pain via twitter. It’s why Halak is referred to as “The Client” over at Puck Daddy.
The Islanders went from Marty McInnis and a 2nd Overall pick to Jesse Joensuu.
Twitter should be denied to some
Like the Utah atty general who gloated about a firing squad execution over Twitter.

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