Actually, things may be more serious than that. Talk among NHL insiders is that the Islanders are now in deep financial trouble. Some are worried Wang may be the next NHL owner to toss the keys to the franchise to Bettman and say he is finished paying for losses in excess of $20-million (U.S) every year.
David Shoalts, Globe & Mail, discussing six franchises that supposedly need advances on revenue/TV money.
Just passing it on as FYI, as "talk among insiders" is, well, talk. Lot of couched language there. But once it's in the G&M, you know people will be citing it.
about 2 years ago
Dominik
43 comments
0 recs |
Email
PrintComments
So I guess
There goes Snow’s open wallet this year?
I mean Wang really has no one to blame for the Islanders losing money then his trust in Milbury. The teams gone from -12 Mill in 07, to -9 mill in 08 and -6 mill in 09 according to Forbes. So it’s on the upswing.
Not only that, but CA Stock has also rebounded.
Mauldin Played for Columbus a few years ago, He has six career games.
Actually, reading the article
This is the much more depressing quote.
However, a banker of our acquaintance has said even if Wang gets the green light the project is unlikely to proceed because banks are not willing to finance billion-dollar deals willy-nilly anymore, especially in areas like Long Island that do not need more office space.
Mauldin Played for Columbus a few years ago, He has six career games.
A battle of depressions
Heh, I guess I was more depressed by the “in deep financial trouble” part because I’ve heard that banking rumor before.
But like you said, Forbes’ estimates have had the team’s value going up (or at minimum, steady) and the NHL might have a little more TV money to pass around, and now Wang will get actual concession and parking revenue, so I’m wondering how now suddenly the Isles are in financial trouble. Unless it’s purely a 1-for-1 reflection of Wang’s ability to fund the team, and unless by extension his ability was based on the expectation of a Lighthouse Project bonanza.
I try to tell myself no matter what, operating this team in a new venue in the area would be attractive to a sports mogul, so even if Wang threw in the towel there would be other options that don’t involve Canada or an empty venue in the middle of the country.
I do view every sports owner as temporary though, so … like sands in the hourglass.
Lighthouse Hockey: Playing the NHL Lotto
areas like Long Island that do not need more office space
What an ignorant comment.
Like top-notch businesses want to relocate to a couple of rooms over a nail salon or a pizza place in a strip mall? LI needs QUALITY business space… with the necessary ambiance around them such as places to eat, have meetings, etc. Duh.
This article was pretty much shit… no news.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Apr 28, 2010 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Like top-notch businesses want to relocate to a couple of rooms over a nail salon or a pizza place in a strip mall?
LOL. Echoes of every office development debate.
Pretty clear Shoalts is combining Newsday rehash with insider “talk,” so we’ll see if he digs up anything new and sourced on this. With the Coyotes settling down they may need a new pet target for the summer. I’m just posting it because the G&M has such visibility, that’s going to be the new common word on this around the league.
Lighthouse Hockey: Playing the NHL Lotto
Don't discount real estate values...
over pizza joints. It’s nice to be able to bang a broom on the floor and get Pino to come up with a pie at lunch time.
I agree that prime office space never goes out of style and the attraction is to get more businesses to move from the 212/718 to the 516. But the real moneymaker for Wang was residential anyway.
He said, “affordable”, but he didn’t say who could afford it. With the money investors would ahve sunk into the construction we’d probably be looking at $500K-$1M condos with hi monthly maintenance fees… you know it costs a lot more when you have to get the garbage from teh underground parking garage… and somebody has to water the tree.
I know a lot of people are behind this… and I am behind the LH 100% as long as the Islanders are divorced from it. LI needs the jobs, the land should be developed and yes, the county needs teh tax revenue.
But the Islanders need somewhere that they can be a stand alone entity, and the colly isn’t going to give that to them… and SELFISHLY… the Islander fans DESERVE better than a patched up 40 year old building, that will be a patched up 70 year old building the next time around… can you imagine the fight to get a new colley when it’s in tehmiddle of a smalll city in teh middle of nowhere… with no mass transit.
NHL 500... Let the Less Filling vs Tastes Great debate begin!
WANG HAS NOBODY BUT WANG TO BLAME...
I only wish I was able to cook my own books so I could gamble the money I make on a multi-billion dollar real estate deal thinly veiled as a sports franchise.
GOOD GOD, is anybody ever gonna take off their blue and orange glasses and see this for what it is.
Milbury didn’t sign Yashin for 10 years with HIS money.
Milbury didn’t sign DiPietro for 15 years with HIS money… nor did Snow.
Milbury didn’t duct tape the franchise to a fantasy real estate deal, and try to bring the fan base along for political support.
Milbury didn’t create a marketing strategy that can’t attract flies to games not involving the NY Rangers.
Milbury, though, did everything else. :-)
It’s the trickle down incomptence theory in full effect.
The EXIT strategy for the Islanders should have been in the works for 10 years. Now they have less than 5 years to create one. It’s not the end of the world, but their first move should be to put up the FOR SALE sign. Thanks for the memories Charles.
If Queens is realistic, they can make a deal with a prospective buyer and they could sell this team in less than 12 months. If Queens isn’t a reality, then we can turn it all around and say thanks chuck… now we’ll have to root for the Las Vegas Hookers…or Ice Bandits… or Sand Tigers… or whatever… good job.
NHL 500... Let the Less Filling vs Tastes Great debate begin!
I’m just saying all the signs of Milbury’s gross level of incompetence were already there. Wang should have came in and cleaned house like most new owners tend to do. Not only that, but not that many franchises have the rich history of the Islanders with retired legends more then willing to work with the team and help make them better. Not only that, but there’s plenty of high level sports management people willing to take your money and help advise you. Instead of coming in green and running with everyone of Milbury’s hair schemed plans.
Yes, Wang came in and saved the Islanders from Poor Owners. I tend not to knock around Wang too much because he did come in when seemingly no one wanted the Islanders. But sometimes that can only win you so much Gratuity.
Mauldin Played for Columbus a few years ago, He has six career games.
Wang is no "savior"
Wang didn’t save a franchise… he saved the county meal ticket for 10 years. The NHL could have been proactive about MOVING the franchise to a better location and getting them out of that horrible lease 10 years earlier. That MIGHT have attracted better ownership groups… Every owner since the beginning has looked at the Islanders as a KEY TENNANT to a Billion dollar development deal.
The County and TOH have just played their cards for 30 years…. and now they will fold.
Becasue THE NVMC is an outdated venue in a BAD LOCATION… why spend money to build a new one… that’s why NEW was never even on the table.
This team, and more-over this FANBASE deserves more respect than that. We have supported this team through thick and thin, we travel well… and if they were marketed correctly could be in the same financial position as the Mets. Number Two in the BIGGEST MARKET IN ATHE WORLD ain’t half bad…. UNLESS YOU’RE INCOMPETENT
NHL 500... Let the Less Filling vs Tastes Great debate begin!
isn’t the lease concrete solid and impossible to get out of?
Mauldin Played for Columbus a few years ago, He has six career games.
YES
A Nassau County Supreme Court judge, among others, has said so. In fact, most experts have had to shake their heads in disbelief that the Isles would sign something so impossible to get out from under. They are there until 2015 no matter what.
NO
How can you say that? YES, the “lease” is still in place, but the TERMS were CHANGED….
Bob Gutkowski planned to do something similar, and was swiftly swept under the rug. I don’t think he had the cash… but he had a plan, and where there is a plan to MAKE money people will follow.
I was looking for Bob’s last name and found this (so I am not alone)
The Isles have paid [with inflation] a very small amount to do business in the greatest market in the world. Without having to pay it again, and only having to find a new venue I can’t believe that somebody, somewhere wouldn’t pick up the team, the name, the fanbase and all the goodies that comes with nearly 40 years of hard work and MOVE it somewhere that has PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION..
The assumption that CHUCK was the last resort, is just that… it’s not a fact. It may have been true, but we’ll never find out. He was probably duped just as we were… and he got soaked for the $300M he stole from CA investors (purely speculation… I have no proof, but Sanjay was in jail for quite some time)…
So let’s not make him out to be a saint… Saint Chuck, the patron saint of nepotism.
NHL 500... Let the Less Filling vs Tastes Great debate begin!
YES
I can say it because numerous legal experts have already said it. The deal is ironclad. They will not be moving before 2015. Whether Wang was the last resort is another issue…but the lease is solid as a rock.
NO
I didn’t say they would break the lease and move… I said they would get out of a HORRIBLE LEASE… DONE… they are now getting revenue (we have been led to believe) from parking and concessions.
If that is true now, with only 5 years of revenue at stake, I wonder if they could have done it 10 years ago by somebody not so interested in making Wang World telling the county, “Look, we can’t make it here. We file bankruptcy and you get squat… or you change the terms and we all make money… what will it be?”
It obviously could have been done because IT WAS!!!!
DA: Chuck, look, there’s a golden opportunity here. You buy the team and we smooth over the real estate thing. You can do what ever you want there.
CW: Al, nobody has ever made money there… why would I put my money into that hole?
DA: They didn’t make money because they didn’t want to play ball… you’ll play ball… we’ll all be rich, and you’ll be the Chinese William Levitt.
CW: William who? Nevermind… where do I get that money… can you get the banks to loan me $100M.
DA: Don’t you have stock options about to mature?
CW: They won’t… the company isn’t going to make it’s numbers.
DA: You know, you can make that happen… justice can be blindfolded…
CW: Hmmmm…. okay… and the lease?
DA: don’t worry about that, you’ll be making so much money it will be like a candle next to a LIGHTHOUSE.
CW: Okay.. I’m in…
DA: Take sanjay along… just in case I can only cover one eye of justice.
CW: Bwahahahahaha… DA, YOU ARE GENIUS… pass the sweet n’ low.
NHL 500... Let the Less Filling vs Tastes Great debate begin!
You can say what you want but
the lease cannot be broken. Some have even suggested that Wang could go to jail if he tried. A Nassau County Supreme Court judge specifically said that the lease is ironclad for the exact purpose of ensuring that the Isles stay put in Uniondale for the full term of the lease. The team will be where it is until 2015 and then it will move. I am not sure of the entire history of the lease, but I do know that the Isles were founded to keep the WHA from putting a franchise into the NVMC. Under those circumstances, the ToH was probably in a position to dictate terms and wanted to ensure that the NHL didn’t just pull up stakes once the WHA went away.
Wasn’t the Lease renewed though in 95, 97 or 99? Because I remember thinking at least the Isles will be around for a while.
Mauldin Played for Columbus a few years ago, He has six career games.
I think the last extension was in 1985, which is what made it a “30-year lease.” I could be confusing my TV deals with my inside jobs though.
Lighthouse Hockey: Playing the NHL Lotto
extensions and renewals
of the original deal. And undertaken immediately in the wake of the Dynasty era when going bankrupt or leaving the area would have been the last thought on anyone’s mind. Move this team that has just won four Cups in a row? They might have offered a 50 year lease.
Milbury didn’t duct tape the franchise to a fantasy real estate deal, and try to bring the fan base along for political support.
I subscribe to most of those complaints, but in his defense, I’m not sure what options he had for securing the team’s long-term security given the terms of the lease. They all seemed to be shoot-the-moon variety. He bought in with his heart (and hubris) and tried to come up with something that made owning the team worth his while.
I don’t absolve him all his mistakes (sticking with Milbury as his hockey expert being one) and wackiness, but I do figure the team might have been dead without his arrival.
Regardless, I’ve come to view sports owners as a necessary and always temporary accomplice — often a necessary evil — because their interests and my interests only intersect in one rather coincidental way, and I tend to be around long after they’ve gone bankrupt/ended up in jail/lost interest (or sometimes all three!).
Lighthouse Hockey: Playing the NHL Lotto
D'Amato... the other white meat
Nah… here’s what probably happens if chuck doesn’t buy Al’s load of bull…
The team goes into League management… and eventually bankruptcy. Somebody comes in and offers ownership with one of two stipulations…
1. The county builds a new arena by 2015, and voids the current lease…
2. Move teh franchise, and start taking bids from prospective developers and municipalities as their PRIME Tennant… wasn’t CitiField looking to be a sports complex from it’s inception.
They are in the world’s richest area code… do you really buy the load of crap that Charles Wang was the only guy who could afford the team… he was the only mark, that would allow SMG (with Al on the board) to continue to RAPE the franchise.
As you can tell… I’m not a big Chuck fan… I wasn’t rooting against him, but I never had confidence in this whole charade… it never made sense to me… and those sentiments are publically documented.
Unfortunaltey we’ll never know if they would have eventually been sold to competent ownership. And the US attorney’s office has given up on trying to prove that the franchise was sold to a CROOK… but Sanjay did have a boss… and partner….
NHL 500... Let the Less Filling vs Tastes Great debate begin!
They are in the world’s richest area code… do you really buy the load of crap that Charles Wang was the only guy who could afford the team…
Actually, I thought he was the only one NAIVE enough to buy the team and still think something could be worked out with local politicians after witnessing the previous attempts. From the tone at the time and Bettman’s (now decade-old) sentiments, I figured bankruptcy and broken lease would have meant the club is nowhere near New York today. But we’ll never know.
Lighthouse Hockey: Playing the NHL Lotto
In other words
The condition of the team, the building, the lease and the political environment at the time: All made me think, “No way someone buys this and deals with 15 more years of this crap, when taxpayers are building stadium in desperate locales around the country.” Looking back, I’m still amazed Wang bought, and I’m just in awe we’re here 10 years later. Didn’t think this day would arrive.
Lighthouse Hockey: Playing the NHL Lotto
Some [chinese] food for thought...
I remember thinking the same thing at the time. And this has always stuck in my mind. I just found it again… it pretty much puts all the players at the table, but it’s a little vague in who had what cards and how they were played.
As a poker player I always try to put a story behind a hand… and so far, the one above is the closest to my own personal truth I can find… I’m sure I’m wrong, but until somebody writes a book about it that’s what I’m going with.
Hands:
CW: (SB)AhQd
BG: (BB)AcJc
AD: (UTG)9c9h
AD: raises… Holds out the real estate carrot as enticement to take the property from Millstein who wants to crush SMG… and seeing no way to do that will fold up his tent and kill the cash cow.
CW: calls… he is interested in LI real estate… no way you can lose money with it.
BG: calls… sees the Isles as poorly managed, huge opportunity.
FLOP: Ad4c3c (The county snuggles up to the development deal, and they wouldn’t mind Gutkowski filling the venue with other entertainment ideas)
CW: Bets his A… he sees that there is potential now to build a small city.
BG: Calls… he can make this work.
AD: calls… he makes money either way… things are good.
Turn: Ad4c3c – Qd…. Millstein sees there are two bidders, and he won’t lower the price… making Charles the best hand.
CW: Goes all-in…. he makes and offer, full-price. and wants to push out the diamond draw.
BG: folds… his A isn’t as strong without a draw…
AD: calls… he is along for the ride… he’s playing with Charles money anyway…
River: Ad4c3c – Qd – 9s… after 8 or 9 years Al says, “Sorry Charlie, just can’t make it happen”
Disposition
CW has a team he’s mis-managed for ten years, focusing on building a small city… that will never be. He’s lost about .02% of his multi-billion dollar fortune.
BG: lost a little in playing with fire, but pretty much avoided the midevil butt reaming handed out by AD on the river.
AD: comes out of this unscathed and a little wealthier… who’s better than him?
And now I’ll go watch that other 2nd rate new york team that I love so much… LOS METSOS
BTW: Why “chinese food”… no, I’m not a biggot… After writing all that crap I’m hungry again.
:-)
NHL 500... Let the Less Filling vs Tastes Great debate begin!
Now I'm hungry too
…although I’m pretty rusty on my poker terms. (Poker agnostic.)
I cannot pretend to know what really went down, but I confess my impression at the time was based on this, as worded in that article:
The Gutkowski group has had a nonbinding deal to buy the team since August, but was unable to get concessions in the team’s Nassau Coliseum lease or overcome the perception that it lacked the money to make the dealBoth sounded like shady factors, e.g. “Well if we can revise the lease no one will revise, then the check will be in the mail.”
..
However, the business I was in at the time (too tangential to explain here) involved loosely following CA, among others. Suffice to say the fact two CA guys were buying the team made me nervous, and the legal troubles that came later made me more nervous, but not surprised. My god I can’t believe it’s been 10 years since then…
Lighthouse Hockey: Playing the NHL Lotto
It's so hard
You have to thread that needle between when you’ve cashed in your loot and when someone asks the right questions. Mark Cuban is one lucky genius.
Lighthouse Hockey: Playing the NHL Lotto
Actually, I thought he was the only one NAIVE enough to buy the team and still think something could be worked out with local politicians after witnessing the previous attempts. From the tone at the time and Bettman’s (now decade-old) sentiments, I figured bankruptcy and broken lease would have meant the club is nowhere near New York today. But we’ll never know.
Right, Dom.
JPinVA, I Agree with you a lot- but I am not with you on this one. Making some kind of villain out of Charles Wang and telling oneself that there were others RWA to buy the Isles who could have magically made all these problems disappear is something I cannot possibly get behind. Theres no reality there, only fantasy. Sure, there were MANY people who COULD have purchased the Islanders- but they WOULDNT and DIDNT because of the difficult situation the team was (is) in. To believe otherwise is denying the truth of the matter.
This is NOT meant to you specifically, but I really honestly and truly believe that if Charles Wang was a WASP there would be far less hostility and more of an objective view of this teams difficult situation.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on May 2, 2010 6:27 AM EDT up reply actions
The Lighthouse deal is all but dead
It is simply a matter of stating the obvious and moving on to Queens.
I forget your not actually from Queens sometimes.
Mauldin Played for Columbus a few years ago, He has six career games.
If I had a dime every time I saw an Isles fan make these big declarations about what is and isnt dead and what is and isnt going to happen Id have enough money to buy the fucking Islanders myself.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on May 2, 2010 6:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Good riddance to this Long Island hellhole
I live in Manhattan and this team might as well be in Kansas City, because it’s just about as accessible to me as the NVMC is. I’m only partially kidding.
The biggest loser in this whole thing is going to be Nassau County / Town of Hempstead. Heckuva job, team! Good luck replacing that revenue, you asshats.
Heck I used to live in West Hempstead
all of four miles away and it was still a pain to get to and especially to park in. The CitiField complex would be much better in every way.
Botta just released some info that there is a casino in the mix for the ToH property. If that is true, at least we know what side deal was going on while the fans were shut out. That would also contradict all of the statements of concern with traffic set forth by the ToH. It is hard to believe that there would be a casino in Uniondale considering that the surrounding areas are already unsightly. Now add a casino to the mix… Images of Atlantic City pop into mind with the houses across the street from the casinos. There is plastic for windows and most of it is flowing in the wind…and that is winter. You might as well set up a permanent show for Cops in Nassau county while you are at it.
How exactly would Murray announce that to the Garden City folks. “We fought off the pride of the island to give you a centralized area for drugs and corruption…which will eventually feature me involved with as Newsday will report in about 2 years.”
Unproven playoff goaltenders shouldn't shoot their mouths off after game 6 and before game 7 unless they like being the other guy in the poster.
That is what kills me about this nonsense. Like, “OMG, we have to preserve idyllic Uniondale!” Right. Let’s preserve the sanctity of Uniondale . . . which everyone can agree is objectively an abject shithole.
I expect nothing less from these clowns on Long Island.
by AP77 on Apr 28, 2010 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I LOVE the casino idea...
…I mean, in the “OMG what a B.S. political stunt, only desperate communities do this shit” sort of way.
Lighthouse Hockey: Playing the NHL Lotto
As a degenerate gambler, it always warms my heart to see municipalities rush to the gambling money tree anytime economic hardship strikes.
Ladies and gentlemen of Springfield, there is an untapped source among our gambling degenerates.
Lighthouse Hockey: Playing the NHL Lotto
Well at least all those folks in their lily white enclave
won’t have to worry about Queens moving in next store. Instead, the Islanders move to Queens.
The NIMBYs in Garden City wouldnt even allow a bus route through Garden City to get to NVMC. How many busses there would be if there was a casino? Casino resorts are 24/7. It would change everything- the police force would have to be completely restructured in a way that some retail, high-quality office space, some condos, and a park would never cause. The NIMBYs in the surrounding area do not want buildings they can see. They do not want lights. They do not want noise. They do not want the very things that are the signatures of casino resorts.
What about the Navy base? The museums? What about all the colleges and schools already sitting right there? You think they would all be fine with this? I sure dont. What about puttng people to work? The reason the unions were so for this project was the jobs it would generate. If this is built by the tribe, they will bring their own people in to work there. And I dont blame them for that one bit- but it completely changes the dynamics of who would be helped, and it changes the support. What about the fire departments and schools that were going to be helped byut he LH? And what about the tax revenue LI wants to generate? Native Americans have many, many tax exemptions that some of you may not be considering. High-quality offics space and research facilities will generate far more tax money for the area. I already said I do not have a problem with Casinos. I do think in that particular area it would not work.
I am certain that the “NHL insiders” who were talking do not understand the situation here on LI. They do not know even what you and I know. Their opinions of what is happening with this team are based on snips ffrom shoddy articles and hresay. Dont you guys see that?
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Lighthouse Hockey
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Featured Stories
Islanders Schedule
In Association With
Latest Puck Daddy - NHL from Yahoo! Sports
- Watch Kings, Coyotes in hostile handshake line after Dustin Penner sends LA to Stanley Cup Final (VIDEO)
- Kings vs. Coyotes Game 5; Pierre McGuire on Tortorella/DeBoer argument (Playoff Puck Previews)
- Behold, the incredible playoff beards of Radko Gudas and AHL’s Norfolk Admirals
- Coyotes vs. the road warriors: Can Phoenix end LA Kings’ road domination?
- Coyotes, Kings Game 5 preview; Claude Giroux has fun; PK Subban on the ladies (Puck Headlines)
SBNation.com Recent Stories
1979-80
Source: Uploaded by user via NYIslanders on Pinterest
May 24, 1980: Tonelli to Nystrom. At long last, the steady build of the New York Islanders from expansion doormat to surprise semifinalist to annual contender reaches the promised land: Buoyed by a late season trade for Butch Goring that gave the team the depth up the middle GM Bill Torrey had been seeking, the Islanders knock off the Philadelphia Flyers in six games.
The victory justified the faith in coach Al Arbour who guided them from their second season to their first Stanley Cup seven seasons later. The Islanders would not be the first expansion team to win the Stanley Cup, but they would be the only one capable of a dynasty.
1980-81
Source: Uploaded by user via NYIslanders on Pinterest
May 21, 1981: This time it was much easier. After falling to "only" 91 points in the 1979-80 season, the Islanders returned to their division title tradition, piling up 110 points -- a whole 13 points over second-place Philadelphia.
Between the quarterfinals (where they beat the upstart Oilers in six games) and the finals, the Islanders reeled off eight consecutive wins -- with a four-game sweep of archrival Rangers in between. As they defeated the Minnesota North Stars in five games for their second Cup, their goal difference in the final was a combined +10.
1981-82
Source: Uploaded by user via NYIslanders on Pinterest
May 16, 1982: Another year, another landslide title. The Islanders won the Patrick Division by a whopping 26 points over the second-place Rangers, and were seven points clear of their nearest competition for the President's Trophy, the still-not-quite-ripe Edmonton Oilers.
A first-round scare against the Pittsburgh Penguins turned in the Isles' favor thanks to John Tonelli's heroics, and a true dynasty was on its way: Past the Rangers in six games, then an eight-game sweep of the Quebec Nordiques and Vancouver Canucks to run away with the Stanley Cup.
1982-83
Source: Uploaded by user via NYIslanders on Pinterest
May 17, 1983: Not so fast, whipper-snappers. The Edmonton Oilers' steadily rising challenge for league supremacy took them all the way to the finals for the first time, where the New York Islanders summarily dispatched them in a four-game sweep. For the Islanders, the Dynasty was secured. For the Oilers, it was a powerful lesson in where talent ends and the demands of playoff hockey begin.
Four years, four Cups, 16 consecutive playoff series wins (a record that would grow to 19 until the rematch with the Oilers the following year). Mike Bossy scored 60 goals yet again, and Wayne Gretzky became acquainted with Billy Smith's crease.
