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Around SBN: The Amateur Mathematics Of Linsanity

Season in Review: Islanders advanced stats like Moulson

Sean Bergenheim draws penalties in bunches.

Don't worry, this site isn't turning into a daily stats dump. But I wanted to get some reference points out there when talking about the season that was and the decisions to be made in the summer that will be.

If you don't like "advanced" stats, I understand. But try to look at them as just another angle, another data point, a set of impartial eyes. Hockey is much less conducive to isolated event tracking the way baseball is -- I suspect the traits I like about this sport are the ones that make it so hard to quantify -- but there is still something to be gained from the many attempts to quantify the individual influences on what happens during this chaotic team game.

To that end, here is a compilation of how the Islanders finished according to a few advanced stats/formulas that I like to keep an eye on. I'll give a few words (mostly: links to actual explanations) about each stat category, but take them as you will. (Generally, people use them to suit their own biases, but there you go.) Suffice to say these stats are generally high on Mark Streit, Frans Nielsen and Matt Moulson; they are mixed on Kyle Okposo's year -- which is interesting because most of us see him as one of the best-working, most valuable pieces on the team; but he had a poor plus/minus and some brutal luck this year. And goals, by any measure, are the name of the game.

In virtually every case, you can find one category that praises a player, and one that makes you question that praise. Which is why I like them. (I don't tend to trust people who are certain about everything in this world.)

Star-divide

First, let me say this: Some people treat these as end-all be-all. Some try to make them the basis for predicting future production. I find predicting future performance folly -- whether luck or improved fitness/development, there are always unknown future variables. I treat them as a nice composite to help explain the year that was, and then make educated guesses at what might come in the future.

Just like with plus/minus -- except to a smaller degree -- I'm wary of using any of these stats to compare Islanders with players from other teams. But as comparisons within the team, to get a look at who might be more valuable than we realize, or used in a way that explains other ugly numbers, I think they're excellent.

Brief explanations and links for each category are below the table. The players are ordered by their GVT rank, but that was an arbitrary choice. I boldfaced the best marks and a few noteworthy low marks in each category -- excluding guys who only played 20 games or less.


2009-10 QoC
Pen. +/-
BHT Rating Corsi QoC
GVT
Mark Streit -.003 -12 .44 .548 10.7
Matt Moulson .024 7 .68 .518 10.2
Frans Nielsen .031 2 .32 .625 7.9
John Tavares .012 7 -.43 .490 6.9
Blake Comeau -.032 -3 -.20 .237 6.5
Josh Bailey .001 4 .70 -.119 5.7
Rob Schremp -.045 5 .15 -.229 5.3
Trent Hunter .005 E .85 .330 4.7
2009-10 QoC
Pen. +/-
BHT Rating Corsi QoC
GVT
Kyle Okposo .041 12 -1.11 .516 3.4
Jack Hillen .017 -12 -.25 .635
3.4
Freddy Meyer -.045 -9 .34 -.180 3.3
Sean Bergenheim -.012 10 .43 .644 2.8
Jeff Tambellini -.099 -1 -.03 .112 2.4
Jon Sim -.037 13 35 -.007
2.4
Andy Sutton .026 -21 -.10 .726 2.3
Richard Park -.009 E -.09
.858
1.7
Dylan Reese .050 -3 1.93
.321
1.5
Andrew MacDonald .025 -3 .85 .512 1.4
2009-10 QoC
Pen. +/-
BHT Rating Corsi QoC
GVT
Bruno Gervais -.037 -8 -.58 .222 .8
Radek Martinek .054 -2 0 1.595 .7
Dustin Kohn -.110 -1 .47 -.796 .6
Doug Weight -.076 -1 .19 -.093 .5
Dwayne Roloson n/a n/a n/a n/a .4
Jesse Joensuu -.064 1 3.20 -.503
.1
Matt Martin -.007 -1 -1.66 .142 0
Mark Flood .047 0 -4.42 .157 -0.4
2009-10 QoC
Pen. +/-
BHT Rating
Corsi QoC
GVT
Rick DiPietro n/a n/a n/a n/a -0.4
Tim Jackman -.032 -3 .03 .779 -0.4
Joel Rechlicz
-.103 -1 -6.09 .849 -0.4
Trevor Gillies
-.060 -7 -1.96 -.912 -0.6
Brendan Witt
-.101 -4 -2.14 -.422 -1.7
Nate Thompson
.069 -3 -1.24 1.156 -2.3
Martin Biron
n/a n/a n/a n/a -5.5

Quickly, a point about why these aren't so helpful in small samples: Notice Joensuu, who played 11 games with about 11 minutes of 5-on-5 per game, has a team-high Behind the Net Rating, as well as a team-worst Corsi relative to QoC. Figures for guys like Flood, Rechlicz, even Reese should be disregarded or treated with massive caveats.

Tom Awad's GVT -- Importantly, this is a cumulative stat that tries to equate to baseball's "value over replacement player" (VORP). So it means actual contributions to actual wins -- including shootout wins. If a player doesn't take shootout shots, he's already had fewer opportunities than his teammates who do. Unlike the +/- and Corsi figures, which try to evaluate players based on 5-on-5 play (of which there is a far larger sample of data to mine), GVT includes all situations.

Here are one, two, three explanations for GVT (Goals Versus Threshold). Or, to quote Awad directly and concisely:

GVT is a measure of observed performance, not implied talent...

So it is a way of describing what has happened -- not necessarily saying this will happen again.

Also: Forwards and defensemen make different contributions; GVT makes an attempt to evaluate their contributions on the same scale, so you can compare apples and oranges.

Behind the Net's +/- -- It's listed as "Rating" at Behind the Net and is described as +- relative to the team. I tend to call this one "relative +/-" although that could be confusing because there are a few adjusted +/- measures out there. It's Gabriel Desjardins' way of trying to control for teammates. (In other words, the Capitals all have massively positive plus/minuses, but that doesn't mean they're all better players than Mark Streit, who finished at even.)

Quality of Competition -- This isn't a grade or reflection of performance, but rather an attempt to measure the quality of opponents a player was on the ice against. "Tough minutes," as some call them. Essentially, the higher a player's number, the greater the likelihood his coach puts him against the opposition's best line -- and the greater the likelihood that all of his stats, from goal production to plus/minus, suffer. A positive number means he generally faced good players, a negative number means weaker competition, and the possibility that Scott Gordon sheltered him.

Corsi QoC -- Corsi relative to Quality of Competition. You probably have an idea about Corsi by now, but if not read this. Like every attempt to measure hockey, Corsi is imperfect. If you play in lead-holding situations, you will face more attempted shots against than shots for, and your Corsi will be negative. Same if you always play against the opposition's best lines (unless you are the rare player who is better than the opposition's best). This is a Corsi rating adjusted for the quality of the opponents you faced.

Penalty +/- -- The easiest to understand, based on a specific trait: Simply, the amount of non-coincidental penalties a player draws minus what he commits. The data isn't always 100% accurate on this, but it's close enough for a season-ending gander. Obviously, defensemen are always going to be in the negative, while forwards (particularly penalty drawers Okopso and Sim) are going to be well into the positive. I bet you wish your rec league tracked this stat for "that guy" who's the hothead on your team ... unless you're that hothead.

*  *  *

P.S. Thanks to those commenters who occasionally cite these are other figures -- that alerts me to the fact that some of you are interested in them. On that note, if there are categories or other angles you prefer to see over these, let me know.

One category I didn't post above is Quality of Teammates. Which is worth considering; for example, Hunter's high rating may be partly due to playing so much with Nielsen.

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If you don’t like “advanced” stats, I understand.

and that’s where i trailed off… :-)

NY Islanders Hockey: Where MRI's are addictive

by bob l on Apr 14, 2010 9:32 AM EDT reply actions  

Ha

Thanks for responding guys, this is all good for me to know.

(Plus, this way I get to make up my own voodoo stat that ordains Frans Nielsen King for Life.)

Lighthouse Hockey: Playing the NHL Lotto

by Dominik on Apr 14, 2010 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

One queston

What was Okposo’s GVT on days when his xBox had data transfer errors as opposed to days when he ate at Wendy’s.

NHL 500... Let the Less Filling vs Tastes Great debate begin!

by JPinVA on Apr 14, 2010 10:22 AM EDT reply actions  

What's wrong with Wendy's?

I ran a lot of miles training for that day. And I downed a lot of donuts. Little Chocolate Donuts.

Lighthouse Hockey: Playing the NHL Lotto

by Dominik on Apr 14, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

I get it... and appreciate the effort... just don't want it...

…kind of like steamed broccoli
When I talk about hockey I like to do it with a beer, or a bourbon in one hand, keeping the other free to slap my buddy in the back (not a euphamism) when he shares a remembrance of Clark Gillies smashing Terry O’Rielly…
I was never a big Ogilvy fan… and that’s what most baseball blogs have become… an Ogilvy Fan Club Love-fest… on par with Trekkie Conventions.

NHL 500... Let the Less Filling vs Tastes Great debate begin!

by JPinVA on Apr 14, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

I hear you

I like it as a little helping of chips with my hockey beer.

I don’t dwell on them too much (and writing about it usually numbs me), but I turn to them whenever the question comes up: “Wait, how much of Player X have I really seen?” There is so much to watch at any given time (“Who’s out there? Who’s he with? Who’s he against? How tired is he during this shift?”) that I like to go to a cold, impartial data source to check against my impressions.

Of course usually the data source just spits out: 4 8 15 16 23 42

Lighthouse Hockey: Playing the NHL Lotto

by Dominik on Apr 14, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry...

jus’ whinin’… I hate not havin’ a horse in the race… Any other year I’d be rooting for Coloroado… but I really don’t want to see MD (I’m surprised they don’t call him Dr. Stick) pus his team through a playoff series win… though it might super-motivate JT… not that he needs motivation.

NHL 500... Let the Less Filling vs Tastes Great debate begin!

by JPinVA on Apr 14, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

That’s actually one reason why I’m tossing up the playoff preview posts — I like to suss out who’s rooting for whom, who has a secret double-life as a Devils sympathizer or Blackhawks lover and such.

I don’t really see any team that grabs me this year. Buffalo because I’ll have a Sabres fan friend squatting my living room until they’re eliminated…maybe the Kings simply because it will create good Battle of California material.

Lighthouse Hockey: Playing the NHL Lotto

by Dominik on Apr 14, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like the "potential Islander" angle

when rooting for a playoff team… so I’ll be watching the soundtigers, for four games anyway.
Which brings me to this question… why would they send Hillen to the meaningless (to the Islanders) world championships, when he could work with a guy like Reese in the AHL playoffs.

NHL 500... Let the Less Filling vs Tastes Great debate begin!

by JPinVA on Apr 14, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of course usually the data source just spits out: 4 8 15 16 23 42

not for too much longer it wont

NY Islanders Hockey: Where MRI's are addictive

by bob l on Apr 14, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hot and juicy cousin Li-Li

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with Wendy’s, and the kids will be happy to know that they are now in China… so after their morning skates they can get some Kung Pao Chili, or a Mai Tai Frosty…. there’s nothing better after a good workout than a Wendy’s Double Dragon, or the Spicy Chicken n’ Broccoli sandwich.

And you never know… you might even hook up…

NHL 500... Let the Less Filling vs Tastes Great debate begin!

by JPinVA on Apr 14, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

WHat THE HELL IS THIS CRAP?

by Oleg Kvasha All Star on Apr 14, 2010 10:27 AM EDT reply actions  

Why, a secret plot to show Frans Nielsen more love, of course. Or a way of trying to find out who’s doing what on the ice.

If you really want more info, follow the links.

Lighthouse Hockey: Playing the NHL Lotto

by Dominik on Apr 14, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Somehow

I picture the real Oleg Kvasha saying this A LOT.

Mauldin Played for Columbus a few years ago, He has six career games.

by Mark D on Apr 14, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOL. Yes, that’d fit.

Lighthouse Hockey: Playing the NHL Lotto

by Dominik on Apr 14, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

So I really did try

And a few things do jump out.

Schremps Quality of Competition. If your putting Schremp out there, you want him first and foremost to score goals. Given his ability on his skates and with the puck, you would want him out there against the other teams lesser players.

Okposo’s BHT I think shows that he is the man. KO is a human sparkplug, and if memory serves, he tended not to play on the same line every night but to was put onto lines that Gordon was looking to spark. So it’s not surprising he has such a low rating, without Quality team mates on his line he would still be taking the same chances and pressuring with the high forecheck. If he made a mistake there wasn’t much between him and the net when he wasn’t on the top two lines.

Matt Moulson, I mean how do the Kings give up on this kid? Plus they were the second team to give up on him, as he was originally drafted by the Pens. It reminds me of what they used to say about Chris Carter “All he does is score touchdowns” but with Matt it’s “All he does is score goals”

Mauldin Played for Columbus a few years ago, He has six career games.

by Mark D on Apr 14, 2010 12:20 PM EDT reply actions  

The Kings gave up on Moulson for probably the same reason the Kings and Isles gave up on Olli Jokinen. He took a looooong time to break out. His first four seasons were… well, look at this crap:

306 games; 35 g, 52 a, 87 pts; -48

He never scored more than 11 goals, or 20 assists, or was a plus-player. Granted that this was LA, NYI, and Florida from 1998-2002, but still. Owch. Then bang, he pots 36 his very next season. He topped those four-year numbers in SINGLE years, his first two seasons after the lockout.

That’s why I have a good deal of understanding for JP’s position that advanced metrics are mathematical voodoo. There always seems to be a guy out there like Joker or Matty Ice who makes a leap without there being any obvious clue that it was coming. Unfortunately, there are far more people like Oleg who never make this leap when it seems like they ought to.

In the end, Dom’s right. This is MUCH harder to quantify than any of the other three majors. Baseball and football break down into such small, distinct chunks. Even basketball breaks down into possessions. Hockey is more free-form and therefore breaks down very stubbornly. That being said, advanced metrics are a good idea. I find that they help me. Take the adjusted +/- stuff. We all understand basic +/-, and most of us have probably heard where it comes from: the Canadiens invented it to try to quantify defensive play. They were looking for an edge in evaluating the game that would allow them to find valuable players that other teams didn’t want. In essence, it was Moneypuck.

(Of course having a Scotty Bowman helps a great deal, but it’s worth noticing that Bowman didn’t substitute +/- for his own considerable hockey smarts. What he did was use it as one of his many tools, which in his hands was much more dangerous than in anyone else’s.)

Well, we see +/- has caught on generally, it’s got some value. It has some drawbacks. What guys like Sunny Mehta, Tyler Dellow, Gabe Desjardins, et als are doing are trying to eliminate the drawbacks, develop stats that are more accurate measurements of performance. So far, they’re not as easy to calculate and understand as basic +/-. I think eventually that will change and the best and most accessible of them will become as second-nature as sv%.

Of course I'm an expert, I've seen Slap Shot eleven times!

by mikb on Apr 14, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Kings didn’t particularly “Give up” on Olli. Getting Palffy and Smolinski was a pretty good deal for them. Actually, we talked about it before, Bettman forced the Kings to either add the first rounder or Olli into that trade.

Milbury disliked Olli, so that’s why he got dealt along with Luongo. For the longest time the thought was that it took 3-4 years for first rounders to develop, until Crosby and Ovechkin put up their insane seasons.

Plus I don’t see how Moulson and Olli compare. Olli was given almost two complete seasons with the Islanders and Kings, while Moulson’s season high games was 22. Not only that, but Moulson was always on either the King’s 3rd or 4th line.

Mauldin Played for Columbus a few years ago, He has six career games.

by Mark D on Apr 14, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

They compare because they are both players who broke out relatively late: Joker after four full seasons in three different cities, and Moulson at an advanced age. That Joker got four full seasons before his breakout while Moulson was buried on various benches is just a matter of their respective draft spots: Jokinen was the third overall pick, while Moulson was taken 260 spots later. They don’t even have that many rounds in the draft anymore.

Regarding the “give up” – whether it was a good deal for them or not, the Kings chose to include him when ordered. They could have told Bettman to lump it because they believed in Joker. They could have offered someone else to the Isles, such as young winger Pavel Rosa, young defensman Jan Nemecek, or… I dunno, maybe this guy. ;) It was only a few months’ difference anyway.

Besides Joker, the Kings also included recent first-rounder Mathieu Biron, and the first round pick (which became Taylor Pyatt) was already included. They paid a lot to get Ziggy. That trade would not have been so bad if Milbury had stuck it out with Jokinen, or if Biron , Green, or Pyatt had worked out. The Palffy trade is actually one of the few I give Mad Mike a pass on.

Of course I'm an expert, I've seen Slap Shot eleven times!

by mikb on Apr 14, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just to mention, they also got Smolinski in the trade. It’s unfortunate for those Kings teams that had Palffy, they were pretty good but kept having to face the Red Wings and Avs. Even then they pushed the Avs to 7 games twice.

It’s probably a fairly even trade considering that Milbury was forced to trade Ziggy due to his contract.

Mauldin Played for Columbus a few years ago, He has six career games.

by Mark D on Apr 14, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I Like Them

I’m just trying to get used to them. But thanks for all of your work on this.

by IDigRcks on Apr 14, 2010 2:31 PM EDT reply actions  

agreed

As long as someone explains it to me, just more tools for the toolbox.

by kfallon2 on Apr 14, 2010 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Advanced stats are very similar to Rob Schremp – hard to understand initially and then good when you get acclimatised to them.

I do however like to see zone starts when there are corsi-related measures.

by HugoAgogo on Apr 14, 2010 9:00 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Advanced stats are very similar to Rob Schremp – hard to understand initially and then good when you get acclimatised to them.

Ha! I like that!

Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)

by TheMetalChick on Apr 14, 2010 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha, yes Schremp.

I like the zone starts with Corsi, too. That’s pretty important. I haven’t embraced the task of grabbing them yet though.

Lighthouse Hockey: Playing the NHL Lotto

by Dominik on Apr 15, 2010 3:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

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New York Islanders Roster

# Pos. DOB W H
Josh Bailey 12 LW 10/2/1989 190 6-1
Rick DiPietro 39 G 9/19/1981 190 6-1
Mark Eaton 4 D 5/6/1977 215 6-1
Michael Grabner 40 RW 10/5/1987 185 6-0
Travis Hamonic 3 D 8/16/1990 203 6-2
Milan Jurcina 27 D 6/7/1983 253 6-4
Andrew MacDonald 47 D 9/7/1986 196 6-1
Matt Martin 17 LW 3/8/1989 210 6-3
Al Montoya 35 G 2/13/1985 203 6-2
Mike Mottau 10 D 3/19/1978 190 6-0
Matt Moulson 26 LW 11/1/1983 205 6-1
Evgeni Nabokov 20 G 7/25/1975 200 6-0
Aaron Ness 55 D 5/18/1990 170 5-10
Nino Niederreiter 25 RW 9/8/1992 205 6-2
Frans Nielsen 51 C 4/24/1984 184 6-0
Kyle Okposo 21 RW 4/16/1988 205 6-0
Jay Pandolfo 29 LW 12/27/1974 190 6-1
P.A. Parenteau 15 LW 3/24/1983 193 6-0
Marty Reasoner 16 C 2/26/1977 205 6-1
Dylan Reese 42 D 8/29/1984 201 6-1
Brian Rolston 11 LW 2/21/1973 215 6-2
Steve Staios 24 D 7/28/1973 200 6-1
Mark Streit 2 D 12/11/1977 197 6-0
John Tavares 91 C 9/20/1990 202 6-0
Tim Wallace 36 RW 8/6/1984 207 6-1
Ty Wishart 6 D 5/19/1988 222 6-4
Calvin de Haan 44 D 5/9/1991 187 6-1

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