Breaking Down and Analyzing the Islanders Rebuild
by Mark D on Dec 8, 2010 3:26 PM EST
in Big Picture Musings
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PrintThe Bare Cupboard
It's said a lot around here how the Mike Milbury era left the Islanders prospect system bare. Even that doesn't do justice for how bad the prospect system was left by the drafts from 2001 to 2005. The cream of the crop from those draft years? Frans Nielsen. The rest of the NHL level talent? Blake Comeau, Bruno Gervais and Chris Campoli. All three are free agents this offseason, and with their struggles it's possible all three may start next season outside of the NHL. The rest of the picks are a mishmash of guys who never left Europe, never competed above the ECHL level or disappeared from the hockey landscape after two or three years.
The importance of the 2006 draft is not just the end of the Milbury era, but the shift of the Islanders draft to more North American players (or those of NA birth as compared to Europeans who might be playing in Canada). This meant not only a longer prospect development timeline, but as a whole the organization has taken the slow but steady approach to a number of draftees. When you look at the 2006 draft, this is just starting to bear fruit for the Islanders.
The 2006 Draft
Obviously you start with Kyle Okposo, the Islanders first rounder who spent a season and a half at Minnesota, a half season at Bridgeport before joining the Islanders full time in 08-09.
Of the next 12 picks though, only 4th rounders Jase Weslosky and Doug Rogers, 5th rounder Kim Johansson, 6th Rounder Stefan Ridderwall and 7th Rounder Troy Mattila are definitely no longer in or part of the Islanders.
With 2006 being a good draft, it also helps to show what kind of damage the complete failure of the drafts leading up to it did to the Islanders in the long term. The Islanders are only just now starting to see the players drafted in the 2nd round and beyond in the NHL. Andrew MacDonald worked his way up after being drafted from his QMJHL team, playing another year in the QMJHL, a year in the ECHL and a year in the AHL before showing what he could do during an emergency call up in the NHL last year.
Even so, you still have two Islanders who are currently Seniors in college from the draft, Shane Sims and Brian Day. This means unless they show up in Bridgeport or Training Camp and blow the doors off of everyone they are probably another year at the earliest from being NHL ready.
Three of the top six points leaders in Bridgeport currently are from this draft: Jesse Joensuu, Rhett Rakhshani and Robin Figren. All three spent time maturing in different ways. Rhett graduated from Denver before joining BP. Joensuu spent two more years in SM-liga before coming to America. Figren finished out his WHL career, played in SEL a year before joining BP.
Draft Pick vs. Prospect vs. Trade Value
Another part of the problem with the Islanders system being depleted during Milbury's run, is that the Islanders had very few trade chips from previous drafts. Trading future picks is almost universally worse than trading prospects, because you should have the best information on how your prospects are coming along. Trading draft picks is much akin to playing Russian Roulette.
For example, who is Noah Welch? He was a 2nd round selection of the Penguins in 2001. He spent 4 years at college and after graduating joined the Penguins AHL team. He played a full season in the AHL, and part of the following year in the NHL. The Pens dealt him for Gary Roberts, not a huge trade but one that addressed a few issues that the Pens were having. Welch meanwhile has become nothing more then a borderline NHL/AHL player.
The Pens were able to make this trade because they had the depth in their system to replace Welch, they were able to pinpoint Welch's true value after two years in their system. Roberts was always going to be a short term player for them, but his intangibles were worth much more then anything Welch has since brought to the table. Sometimes when your making a deal, it doesn't have to be huge and splashy. Just pinpoint your teams needs while knowing what you can realistically give up.
The Islanders meanwhile were unable to trade any of their prospects who were drafted outside of the first round from 2001-2005. Ryan O'Marra, Robert Nilsson and the 2007 first rounder were dealt for Ryan Smyth. Petteri Nokelainen was dealt for Ben Walter. Smyth left the Islanders for Free Agency, in what kick-started the Islanders' internal decision to rebuild. Walter is now playing in Europe after two years at Bridgeport.
This has left the Islanders in a tight situation, as they don't want to trade future draft picks while rebuilding the team, but they are unable to trade prospects who they realize have a limited potential. Had they drafted better in the earlier part of the decade, you would see them starting to move out some of the older prospects or guys at positions in which they have too much depth, for pieces that either help the current team or at the very least future picks.
Drafts from 2000 to 2005: Euro-heavy, judgment-poor
The Penguins and Blackhawks won the Cup the last two years with rosters made up of players drafted between 2000 and 2005. Of course the Blackhawks have Jonathon Toews and Patrick Kane who were part of the 06 and 07 draft respectfully, but they are the only players from the 06 draft and beyond on the team. Jack Skille, Chicago's 1st round pick in 05, only just made the Blackhawks full time this season.
The Penguins meanwhile only have one player on their roster from the 06 draft and beyond, Jordan Staal. He was their 06 first round pick and has had growing pains along the way in the NHL. When people talk about the Penguins it's about Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin and Marc-Andre Fleury. But you can't win without depth, and the Pens drafts from 00 to 05 are full of players who are hitting triple digits games played in the NHL now. Guys like Kristopher Letang (3rd Round 05) Alex Goligoski (2rd Round 04) Maxime Talbot (8th Round 02) among others.
Time and again though the Islanders from 00 to 05 (and really from 96 to 05) found a way to fumble draft pick after draft pick. That's especially true of picks outside of the first round. Chris Campoli and Bruno Gervais are late round gems who should help even a bad team depth wise. Instead the Islanders leaned on these late round picks to do too much.
There's a simple reason why so few players the Islanders drafted made any sort of splash in North America. Of the four Islanders still around from those drafts, three of them are from North America. Time and again Islanders draftees never made the trip over from Europe. Or they did and quickly escaped back to Europe for whatever reasons.
For example in 2000, outside of the first round, six of seven draftees were from Europe.
In 2001 Six of Eight draftees were from Europe.
In 2002 Six of Seven draftees were from Europe.
In 2003 Six of Eight draftees were from Europe.
In 2004 Four of Ten Draftees were from Europe.
In 2005 One of Seven Draftees were from Europe.
29 of 44 possible picks were from Europe. Take away the 05 draft and it's 28 of 37. This isn't a Don Cherry rant against European players, but this was a continual trend of taking players who would never come to North America. Did they interview these players? Did they talk to them before drafting them? At the very least when you take a North American player, even if you don't sign them you can keep an eye on them. The best example of this lately was the Islanders bringing back former draftees Jeremy Colliton and Wes O'Neil when Bridgeport was struggling with depth.
The Isles Rebuild vs. Other Recent Rebuilds
Shockingly in 2002 the Islanders, Kings and Blackhawks all finished around 96 points, with the Penguins finishing the previous season at 96. The recent success in Pittsburgh has led people to forget how long they were bad, finishing for 4 straight seasons below 70 points. While the Penguins struggled the Islanders were having some of their best seasons since the early '90s.
From 02-03 to 08-09 the Kings missed the playoffs every year and only finished above .500 once during that period. The Blackhawks from 97-98 till 07-08 only made the playoffs once and only finished above .500 twice in that period. Even with the Islanders recent struggles, in comparison their last 8 seasons have seemed successful. They made the playoffs four times in that period and were above .500 four times.
When all three teams hit their lowest point total of the decade, they were teams with a lot of young players. Unfortunately for the Islanders their worst season wasn't a sign of a young team struggling. Instead it was a mismatched team made of spare parts from around the league. The Islanders have continued to get younger since 09, but that means the team and fans continue to struggle through the growing pains.
Why Tomorrow is Promising
It seems like the Islanders fanbase is on the verge of open revolt, and for good reason. I broke it down once, and on three different occasions Milbury decided to "restart" the rebuild. On top of that the original Muller trade by Maloney was another rebuilding beginning. It doesn't help either that the Islanders haven't won a playoff series since 1993. But the Islanders now are paying for the success at the beginning of the decade. It's a cruel irony that seeing Ottawa get to the Cup Finals with the Islanders spare parts wasn't enough. Now we have to struggle through more bad seasons which we should have seen enough of already.
This offseason there are going to be a lot of questions answered. With Moulson, Okposo, Bailey, Grabner, Schremp, Joensuu, Comeau, Parenteau, Wisniewski, Martinek, Jurcina, among a handful of other older vets all facing free agency, we'll get to see how willing the Islanders are to open the wallet. Except for Wiz, most of the FAs should be easy to bring back with possible raises for some of them. But if the Islanders can't find a way to bring back Moulson, Okposo or Bailey then the real questions of the future of the franchise will have to be brought up.
Otherwise Garth Snow is doing everything right. Even the Europeans he has drafted have proven to be more than willing to come to America to play. The Islanders prospect system is looking loaded with talent, and Snow isn't setting unrealistic goals out there that need to be met or else. As players from the 06 and beyond drafts continue to mature, every year should be an improvement for the Islanders.
There's no reason to believe that Snow doesn't have the best in mind for the Islanders. In the past there were crazy roster moves that were huge warning signs (Dumont for Nabokov? Kasparaitis for Smoliniski? Waiving Straka?) of the long term struggles the team would face. The worst move Snow has made so far was the trade for Ryan Smyth, which isn't looking bad in hindsight.
Although it looks like the rebuild is getting nowhere, it's clear that it has only just begun. There's a lot of spare parts on the team right now, but in the long run more and more Isles Draftees should take over those spots. We're already seeing it as guys like Travis Hamonic and Matt Martin have shined well enough this season to grab full time spots. The talent is there, it's just going to take time. To give up all hope now, when the organization is finally dedicated to building the team the right now, would be like not watching the end of Return of the King because your protesting Fellowship of the Ring.
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A change
We are starting to take SIZE into consideration. Sure there are talented smaller players, but they must have something extra to compete in today’s bigger game. Besides the usual skill sets, qualities that stand out are guts and heart, something that is lacking from our smaller players. The last smallish player we had that had those qualities was Jason Blake. Driving to the net was an every shift quality for him. Now we have some Ice Follies types, [No mames mentioned, but any reader could unfortunately pencil in a few.]
Who's the next Bill Torrey?
Mike Milbury was a disaster and Garth Snow obviously isn’t the answer. Couldn’t Bryan Trottier or one of the “Dynasty Islanders” do any better. Why weren’t they given a chance.
Why isn't Snow the answer?
You can knock him for the moves he didn’t make, like picking up a vet winger this offseason, and not having a true backup 2 years ago when DP went down and we had MacDonald and Danis.
But he hasn’t made an outright poor move. He is continually given high marks for the signings he makes and his moves in the draft. There’s a lot of talent in the Prospect system, and that’s largely due to Snow. Also his stockpiling of picks allows him to make deals draft day.
"If I wear an Islanders game-worn jersey will that mean that I’ll score infrequently?" - rtarturo
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Couldn’t Bryan Trottier or one of the "Dynasty Islanders" do any better.
I doubt it. Are there any Dynasty Islanders whose post-playing career has been inspiring? Ken Morrow (already in-house) may be the one whose most immersed in that side of the game, and he reportedly already likes the role he has, which allows him to reside in K.C. if I remember correctly.
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
What about the Sutters? (Ducks book thrown at head)
Stefan Persson is the general manager of Boras in Sweden and Tommy Jonsson is Denmark’s head coach for the WC.
It was worth posting my drivel to get that link… That was the Shizzle my HansunFrizzle! - JPinVA
After being fired as head coach, now a "Special Adviser" to Lighthouse Hockey
by David Hanssen on Dec 8, 2010 9:31 PM EST up reply actions
Europe doesn't count ;)
I was thinking of the Big Names. I’m really powerless to evaluate Goring’s limited coaching (great in the minors, poo-poo platters to deal with in the NHL, curious broadcasting demeanor), but for the Big Names I generally default to thinking stars don’t make great coaches, and players only make good GMs if they’re really paying attention to how that side of the game works.
I have reason to believe Snow was already doing that even while a player. I’m not sure if any of the legends have, since they didn’t show public interest. Potvin was asked this summer if he ever wanted to do that side and he said he loved the idea but it would have to be a perfect situation and he’d have to be tutored for a few years beforehand.
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
Worst move? Best move?
I disagree with you and Webby here…
First off I think that Snow has done a very good job since being granted autonomy (well, as autonomous as one can be with $1.25 in his budget)
The worst move, IMHO, was not Ryan Smyth… that actually was the RIGHT move at the time. It was one which gave the fan base hope, and it turned to shit because of the circus that the man was brought in to run. I feel the worst move was blowing it all up, and starting from scratch. I’m not going to rehash the “Ted Nolan” v “Scott Gordon” debate… but look where we are now. There’s no doubt in my mind this team was three years away from being back in the playoffs again had they not tried to make it something it was not. I don’t even think that was a ZERO move because once again he showed balls and conviction to try something outside the box. It was a ONE or TWO (on a scale from 0-10) because they really had no access to fill the roster with support players to make it work until ALL of their draftees were in the NHL… I don’t think anybody would say that plan worked… and after the the 2007 exodus and failure at the signing sessions he should have known what to expect.
The “BEST” move has been Mark Streit. Unfortunately we don’t have him this year, but I think we’d all agree that this team is at least 10 points better and possibly still in the playoff hunt if Streit has played 25 healthy games. It may have even saved Scott Gordon his job. But, as I pointed out in my Capuano fanpost, it was just lipstick on a pig… because there isn’t enough Scott Gordon talent to make this thing work.
Jack's not nimble, Jack's not quick, but Jack can get another top five pick!
Agree with you on Smyth, it was the right move and I will always defend that particular trade even though it has become unpopular. I don’t understand this sentiment. Look at Nilsson (KHL!) and O’Marra (Just recalled!), they have failed to turn into word beaters and probably won’t. Those were supposed to be two key pieces in Edmonton’s rebuild and only O’Marra is still there, barely. While yes, it would have been nice to have the 1st rounder in 2007 its not like anyone taken at that pick (21 overall, Riley Nash who was subsequently traded for a 2nd rounder) or immediately after has become a great player either. In fact only Max Pacioretty, Mikael Backlund and David Perron are the only ones to play in the NHL so far.
It was worth posting my drivel to get that link… That was the Shizzle my HansunFrizzle! - JPinVA
After being fired as head coach, now a "Special Adviser" to Lighthouse Hockey
by David Hanssen on Dec 8, 2010 9:37 PM EST up reply actions
When I say that his worst move is the Smyth trade, it’s really more of a compliment that he really hasn’t had any bad trades. I’m fine with the Smyth trade, other then wishing we maybe didn’t send that first rounder too for him.
"If I wear an Islanders game-worn jersey will that mean that I’ll score infrequently?" - rtarturo
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
But even then, the tail end of the first round of that draft hasn’t produced much outside of Perron. Outside of the top 10, the best players in that draft are from the late 2nd round on in TJ Gailardi, PK Subban, Wayne Simmonds, Yannick Weber and Oscar Moller so its not like the Isles missed out on anyone special.
It was worth posting my drivel to get that link… That was the Shizzle my HansunFrizzle! - JPinVA
After being fired as head coach, now a "Special Adviser" to Lighthouse Hockey
by David Hanssen on Dec 9, 2010 12:36 AM EST up reply actions
Worst move may be...
The waiving of Tambellini. Watched him put up an extremely impressive performance for the Canucks last night. Third star with his fifth goal on the year since he’s been recalled. Plays on teh second line with Raymond and Kessler and the announcer were all asking how do the Islanders let this kid go? He had five hits, scored and was a noticable force.
I know he didnt’ dominate with the Isles but he clearly had the potential to excel in the right situation. How many other players are the Isles going to give up on because they failed to properly identify the tlaent and put them in the right spot to be successful?
Tambellini wasn’t waived, he wasn’t tendered a contract at the end of last season making him a UFA.
It was worth posting my drivel to get that link… That was the Shizzle my HansunFrizzle! - JPinVA
After being fired as head coach, now a "Special Adviser" to Lighthouse Hockey
by David Hanssen on Dec 9, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
Uhh thanks for the clarification but I"m pretty sure that how they let him walk away is alot less important than the fact they let him walk away for nothing.
Tambi wasn’t going to work here, we don’t have the Sedins to make him look good.
"If I wear an Islanders game-worn jersey will that mean that I’ll score infrequently?" - rtarturo
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
From what I remember
Tambi was basically thrown away by Gordon after his started hot. And i don’t ever remember seeing Tambi playing with the top 6 either. Maybe Witt wasn’t lying and Gordon got personal with Tambi as well?
Constantly building for the future.
by Hot Start you mean his hat trick early last year? The Islanders played him a lot until it was obvious a change was needed.
The Islanders want Tambi to be successful, that means last year they aren’t forced to open up a center spot to give Schremp a try.
"If I wear an Islanders game-worn jersey will that mean that I’ll score infrequently?" - rtarturo
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Good GOD I couldnt disagree with this statement more
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Dec 15, 2010 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
Also agree on Smyth
“Defensible gamble” is how I always call it. I loved that a decision was made on Nilsson/O’Marra and they knew those were parts they were willing to part with to gamble on a star.
Speaking of O’Marra, who now can only hope to make it as a PK guy, isn’t it stunning that his conditioning was questionable at this year’s camp? How many messages does one need to receive?
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
1,569 is the magic number. But seriously, Up until the beginning of this season I thought O’Marra could at least be a useful 3-4 line defensive center but I think I’ve become the final rat to jump off the sinking HCMS O’Marra.
It was worth posting my drivel to get that link… That was the Shizzle my HansunFrizzle! - JPinVA
After being fired as head coach, now a "Special Adviser" to Lighthouse Hockey
by David Hanssen on Dec 9, 2010 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
Good roundup, and a reminder ...
that this ‘rebuild’ really is a ‘starting from scratch’ proposition. That’s been easily forgotten, since the G.M. claimed he expected to be in the playoff picture and then we see a 1-17-2 streak.
I would suggest though, concerning “if the Islanders can’t find a way to bring back Moulson, Okposo or Bailey then the real questions of the future of the franchise will have to be brought up.” If that happens, the questions are answered quite clearly as to the future of this franchise.
Agreed. If that happened — and if a short-term panic trade of a prospect for a veteran with baggage were made — we’d know things will never change.
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
Okposo, Moulson, and Bailey
If those three don’t re-sign I’ll blame a large part of that on arena status. What player in the prime of his career is going to want stick around a franchise that plays in an arena that even a Caveman would be embarassed by?
The New York Islanders....they make opposing goalies look gooooood.
Come on – its not that bad. I was just there on Sunday against PHI. Its old, yes, but it was a perfectly comfortable experience.
by TMS on Dec 9, 2010 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
it is that bad, imho…I have gone on job interviews and when I walk into a brand new, all glass, office building, with cascading fountains, big beautiful elevators and modern amenities, I would rather work there as apposed to an old dilapidate, building with smelly rugs…get my meaning???
I do but you’re exaggerating. It’s old but they keep it clean. The sight lines are just fine. Not much for amenities, that’s true – but there is nothing really ‘wrong’ with watching a game there.
by TMS on Dec 9, 2010 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed, Players don't eat hot dogs
(cough Sanchez, cough)
And we don’t really get to see the locker room or training facilities. Who knows if it’s really bad…all we have to go on is what a fan would want…I doubt that players would care about our sight lines either.
Sarcasm experience enhanced by Samsung (TM)
by Keith Quinn on Dec 9, 2010 4:18 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The other day, in between periods of the broadcast, they did a feature where Zenon showed the cameras around the Islander’s player’s facilities. The locker room, fitness facilities and lounge. It looked pretty nice to me.
by TMS on Dec 9, 2010 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
Moulson is the key
Okposo and Bailey are RFA’s. Bailey doesn’t have much of a bargaining position… but Okposo needs to be offered a long term deal. Moulson is the rub. This was where he made himself valuable… but the coach that did it is gone. If he finds success and harmony with Jack they still might move in another direction. They are going to have to overpay him to stay (like anybody else), and with Grabner still indentured, and the Kirill’s on the horizon it’s possible they stay stingy when it comes to players like Moulson… even though he’s young and productive. It will be telling, either way.
Jack's not nimble, Jack's not quick, but Jack can get another top five pick!
The Islanders will have to be willing to “overpay” Moulson. Getting a guy here is the hardest part, if they don’t spend on him they won’t be able to attract anyone else to replace his salary. The players aren’t stupid they can tell if the owners are committed or not by if they are willing to go the extra mile to keep one of the few guys that has a marketable skill.
If there’s one thing for sure, it’s Moulson can score goals. I can’t see the Islanders overpaying him unless they give him something ridiculous.
"If I wear an Islanders game-worn jersey will that mean that I’ll score infrequently?" - rtarturo
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Going back to "rebuild strategy"
This is another point in which they seem to drop the ball over and over again.
They overvalue their position and undervalue particular players. (Since the Gordon Era began)
CASE 1: Bill Guerin. this might be a joke to some, but Billy Guerin may have been the best forward on the team in year one. He may not have had the upside of a Kyle Okposo, but Kyle could have been in Bridgeport and nobody would have noticed. Instead Gordon overvalues overspeed, instead of listening to a captain that may have had a few more NHL games under his belt. Guerin gone… HUGE amount of leadership gone. Those kids could of learned more in one week from Billy than they could have in a decade from the white board bard. But we did get a third rounder… and a new captain… landlord and somebody’s (I won’t mention any names) Fantasy Hockey starting center.
CASE2: Andy Sutton. I really don’t get this one at all. The guy gets it… he makes it work… he has something the team desperately needed more of… and they cut him loose. But we did get Wizniewski’s physical presence, Mottau’s… what does he bring again… and of course Eaton crow. Was it because they thought he wasn’t worth what he eventually got in ANA, or was it to spite Botta who all but hung a banner on the coliseum wall saying, ‘SUTTON WILL WORK FOR DONUTS"
CASE3: Richard Park. This may be pretty small in the grand scheme of things… but on a team desperate for leadership, and “depth roles” they chose Weight over Park. Not that I don’t like Doug Weight, I think Dougy is terrific… but I think I’d rather have Park sliding up and down, in and out of the depth chart… and SHOWING ENERGY in practice… for some reason, I picture Dougy with a cup of coffee and a whistle in practice… even when he was playing.
What does this have to do with Matt Moulson? My guess is that at the end of the season Snow will throw out a number between $2.8M and $3.2M for 3 years… A team like Toronto will offer him $3M for 3 years and that will be that… (wouldn’t you rather play in front of a full arena and get dressed in a heated room…even for a few bucks less each month) especially if Botta says it’s a good move to sign him at any cost. The Islanders will over-value their incoming class, which they always project one or two years in front of their development… and we will be watching shit hockey again.
Jack's not nimble, Jack's not quick, but Jack can get another top five pick!
We got a 2nd rounder for Guerin because there was an escalation based on how the Pens did in the playoffs. At the time of the trade they were barely outside.
And Sutton obviously isn’t the same player this year that he was last year. He was due to hit the wall, between age and his style of play.
Park also signed a 4 year deal, so he might have been looking for something long term, or unwilling to sign a 2 way deal like Sim was.
So your talking about two guys who are no longer in the NHL and one that’s struggling to hold a spot. Yes, leadership is important, but I think the writing was on the wall with Sutton and Park that they weren’t coming back.
If the Islanders offer Moulson the most money, I see him staying. I think there’s loyalty from him towards the team. How many other teams were going to let him play on a top line with their star player? As long as JT is around I suspect him to stay around.
"If I wear an Islanders game-worn jersey will that mean that I’ll score infrequently?" - rtarturo
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Webby?
We got a 3rd round pick escalated from a 4th round pick that we traded to the yotes and they picked Michael Lee with it… all in the house that Garth built.
Sutton broke his hand in his first game. I haven’t seen enough of him to say that ANYTHING is obvious. You might be correct, but because they replaced him with Wizniewski who is -infinity right now… and making over a million dollars more… not to mention the last thing Wis hit with any memorable force was a TITLEIST. They might be packing the same results as far as I’m concerned.. and I thought that Andy played pretty well for Gordon’s craziness… and would be a lot better under Capuano… because he was signed to play under Nolan… who got what Andy was about.
You may again be correct, but I find it hard to believe that Richard Park would rather spend four years in a euro-league than have had the same opportunity afforded Andy Hilbert… but for more NHL money. Who knows, maybe he got $500K a year and the raw fish concession.
The writing was also on the wall for Gordon, who carried all of Snows eggs,,, AND DROPPED THEM. Now, given a different environment those players may have helped the transition. YES, I’d have rather have seen BETTER players aid in the transition, but you take what you can get.
Now we’ll see what Snow does when his first test with a talented, relatively young player comes up. If he throws up on his shoes and says the Islanders can’t compete in the free market with players THEY MADE.. well then we may need somebody with a little more charisma handling the negotiations.
Jack's not nimble, Jack's not quick, but Jack can get another top five pick!
My Mistake
I thought the Guerin trade pick escalated a 2nd time for them getting to the conference finals.
For what it’s worth, I think Wiz is an improvement over Sutton. At the very least he might be in the long term picture for the club.
Park probably didn’t want to spend the next 3 years bouncing between NHL and AHL teams. There were other teams interested in him but he still preferred going to the Swiss League.
Agreed, they need to sign the young talent and not struggle to do so.
"If I wear an Islanders game-worn jersey will that mean that I’ll score infrequently?" - rtarturo
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
I find it hard to believe that Richard Park would rather spend four years in a euro-league than have had the same opportunity afforded Andy Hilbert… but for more NHL money.
That’s exactly what happened, I believe. Isles apparently offered two-way deal. Maybe they were scared off by the +/- (I assume that’s what scared off other NHL teams). But I would have kept him and “risked” a one-way deal to do it.
But if I were in his shoes with the options presented, the risk of busing it in the AHL with the “reward” of playing for the Isles is nothing compared to four years with a sweet setup in Switzerland. That’s where I’d be riding out the end.
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
His wife is from CT so maybe that’ll keep him here.
by TMS on Dec 9, 2010 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
Moulson won't want to go anywhere else as long as JT is here
Wouldn’t be surprised to see him sign another one year deal and then have him and JT on same length contracts…five years each, maybe.
No matter how disappointed I am about this season,
We all have to remember that Snow started in a position that even an expansion team would not have been in. At least an expansion team would have been able to pick 20-22 NHL calibre players to draft to add to or trade. Snow didn’t even have THAT.
It’s sometimes hard to accepot that we actually STARTED below zero.
NTIPC
by Nova Scotia Isles Fan on Dec 9, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
Great write up.
I like Snow, and I think he’s done well. As for him saying the goal is the playoffs, what else could he say? “We don’t plan on making the playoffs this year…” He didn’t go nuts and say, “Yep, we’ll get that Cup this year,” but of course he said he intended to make the playoffs. He probably meant it to. But that the season has, thus far, gone to shit doesn’t make me blame Snow.
I have no problem with this rebuild. Like any fan, I would like to see more Wins, but it’s like 1973-74 for this team. The parts are there, and there’s more coming. I’m not worried about it all. And if they get another top pick this year, wonderful.
I’m not sure how convinced Wang is to the team at the moment though. The lack of a solid future sure is pressing, that’s probably the worst part of it for me. I would like something other than “we’ll be here til 2015….” But then again, he probably doesn’t know either. I mean, he offered to build a multi billion area in a dump, using much of his own money – AND WAS TURNED DOWN!
As for him saying the goal is the playoffs, what else could he say?
Yeah, unfortunately that’s part of the drill. You have to artificially increase expectations. You have to do subtle things to let players know they’ve got to step up.
Like Konopka’s response when a fan asked if the playoffs are still on the radar. You just can’t be quoted saying, “Well it’s basically impossible right now, so yeah, we’re giving up.”
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
Expectations Management
Up until the “playoffs” statement they had done a very good job managing fan expectations. This year, after not adding one single piece to the top six forward puzzle from free agency… it was hard to beileive that we could make the playoffs. Our ony chance was if our greatly improved defense would bababouy the offense… well injuries made sure that didn’t happen. Back to square one.
Jack's not nimble, Jack's not quick, but Jack can get another top five pick!
It really is like the 73-74 team
as Dose noted above, it really is like starting from scratch. When most teams decide to “rebuild”, they have a bit of something in the pipeline and they decide to cut vets and let their already developing prospects have a chance. We had to start with basically 0 “already developing” prospects. Truly, a “from scratch” operation. Really, even KO only had 1.5 yrs in college right? And our others were not really considered “blue chippers” (as Web noted) by any means…
that makes me feel better about that shit record now
whew, thanks Webbard!
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Cut vets or trades vets for assets
That’s another point that will make this re-build take a little longer. When you decide to re-build, not only do you have a few prospects in the pipeline, you have vets to deal for more picks. The only vets the Islanders had were bought out, walked away for no compensation, or had not trade value so that puts them into an expansion like position.
Most of the Islanders Vets the last few years were spare parts.
We got something for Sutton, Campoli and Guerin.
The other long term guys just don’t have any trade value.
"If I wear an Islanders game-worn jersey will that mean that I’ll score infrequently?" - rtarturo
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Even these vets were from the “post” re-build era. Which further shows they didn’t have a “Jagr” to deal either.
If only Yashin's deal wasn't so brutal...
They could’ve traded him if they wanted to get rid of him, rather than eat that massive buyout. Argh!
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
and using it towards the cap, floor, is a sham and against the spirit of the rules set after the lockout….
Definitely, to a point
However, one of the rules in the CBA was that the range between ceiling and floor would not change — it is always $16 million — even as the cap went up. This league is filled with a select few haves and a giant mass of have-nots. The have-nots have to pay more than what the ceiling was in 2007 just to get to the floor now. For have-nots who don’t get revenue sharing (i.e. the Isles, Ducks, Kings), that’s an even bigger burden. Meanwhile, that cash for buyouts still is being paid out even if it’s not paid toward the on-ice roster.
So I want them to be able to put that money toward the roster, but given their revenues and the challenges in UFA, I think there’s more to it than just being cheap.
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
yeah, and it's a bad rule
the range between ceiling and floor would not change — it is always $16 million — even as the cap went up.
I see the point they were trying to make, but it’s counterproductive. You want competitive teams? Great – let them NOT lose money while developing their prospects, and then they’ll have the money to spend to put a team around them when they’re ready. A team owner may be willing to lose money short-term, especially if the payoff is a couple of deep playoff runs – packed crowds paying the higher playoff prices can recoup some of those losses, and winning trumps all.
A team in the Islanders’ spot is forced to lose that money when they have NO CHANCE of even being competitive. It means they’ve overpaid for marginal players, and risk having no space available for all their own stars when they approach their prime years. It means the owners may be sick of losing $10 million a year, and thus might be less willing to risk $15 million up-front when the money would actually do the most good. It may be one of the worst features of the current CBA, actually.
I would have tied the range to a percentage of the absolute level of the cap. Limits a fixed amount above and below some oddly-divined midpoint are, by definition, less and less useful as the total dollars go up. A $16 million range is 40% of a $40 million cap; it’s only 25.7% of a $60 million cap. That’s too narrow and will only get narrower if the cap rises again, hurting smaller-market and rebuilding teams. There should be a floor at one-half the ceiling: $20 mil for a $20 cap, $35 mil for a $70 cap, etc. Why force a team that’s not ready to spend to go bankrupt on poor product?
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Dead on.
And I fear the problem here is (chiefly) Toronto. Their revenues dwarf 25 other teams and are significantly above the other four. So why would they want to give more into revenue sharing, when they’re already propping up the league to some extent (and are part of a pension fund that demands ROI, no less).
Yet they’re the beast that has the biggest role in skewing the numbers upward, and consequently making it unaffordable for so many other teams. So…add another team to the area so they don’t have that massive pie all to themselves? (But why would they want to do that?) That’s probably why the league wants the player share lowered again, and why the players obviously will want no part of it.
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
TOR=NYY...not NYG
This is why baseball sucks, and football is great. When it came to revenue sharing the only teams in teh league making money like the Giants opened up their vault to make sure that the LEAGUE SURVIVED. They all benefitted by having a competetive LEAGUE, and even the worst matchups DRAW FANS. Sure there are struggles, but the struggles are few and those benefitting are many.
In baseball the opposite dynamic exists. The Yankees rule the roost, and they will continue to rule the world with a few of their contemporaries because IT’S GOOD TO BE THE KING… you have a kid that wins 20 games and you’d like to make him your franchise player… well, you’re going to have to bankrupt your team to do it because the evil empire can pay in luxury tax what you call a payroll budget.
And even though the yankees “share” via the luxury tax teams like Pitts and Florida use that as welfare… See Islander ownership in the 90’s.
When the league is reduced to 24 teams again Toronto may win a cup… or buy a cup… or whatever.
Bettman, Wang, campbell… the whole lot of them will burn in hockey h e double lacrosse stix.
Jack's not nimble, Jack's not quick, but Jack can get another top five pick!
Yeah, and praise W-[can’t remember the name] with the NYG for allowing it to go that way. Of course easier said for football, which is built around the weekly ritual and bankable TV pie for everyone to split. Hockey is up a creek in that department. Toronto has little incentive to think of “one league” vs. 30 teams.
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
Good point. Have the cap move but the range fixed is stupid.
by TMS on Dec 9, 2010 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
I have to disagree here...
This is a league, not 30 individual teams. Let’s just suppose that 10 teams decided to rebuild ala charles wang.
Is that fair to the other 20 teams? If those teams that WANT TO COMPETE and MAKE THE GAME FUN TO WATCH why should they even come to this hole of an arena to allow this misguided and unorganized team draw fans with their brand. See HABS, RAGS, CAPS, GUINS, FLYERS and Devils (well.. the devils fans may not exist because they don’t even go to their own games.)
the big mistake that Bettman made was trying to build from the NBA model… instead of the NFL model.
the big thing is Bettman needs to open up the NHL welfare restrictions,,, but he also needs to make sure that Wang spends the welfare…
This is a NY team… people come out to see a winner. That’s not gonna make Wang any money, but it will retain interest in the club while they rebuild… and it will help tehm rebuild… Maybe they can’t get the right players, but they had better try harder… and let their players DEVELOP in teh AHL where players are SUPPOSED TO DEVELOP.
Just a thought. If you were to try to buy a franchise in a successful restaurant the business managers would give you some advice. They would say you need enough capital to build the business in this location, and that means losing money for a number of years.
Charles Wang didn’t pay attention to that… because his interest didn’t lie in the hockey team, it was in the property that it sat on. There was never a real plan for the hockey team to WORK… until he held it hostage… and it was only for the team to WORK FOR HIM.
Now the fact that he bleeds $20M/year is an issue… but when he was planning on gettting $3B+ in development contracts for a penny an acre property that YOU OWN! Then it was okay to bleed out that money.
This team needs to be sold to competent owners, and it needs to relocate… I hope it’s not to canada, but I find it hard to believe that it won’t be.
Jack's not nimble, Jack's not quick, but Jack can get another top five pick!
Why does it need to relocate? They could do to NVMC just what they did to Shea Stadium. Build a new one in the parking lot. They need a better lease that’s for sure – but with a good team and a new arena exactly where the old one is the Isles would do just fine.
by TMS on Dec 9, 2010 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
I see what you're saying but
… is it fair to the other 20 teams? Why not? They’ll win most of those games.
And if it isn’t fair… well, would you rather have those ten teams survive the lean times and then work their way back into contention after five or ten seasons, or be permanently that bad?
I mean, it can cut both ways. You could get an owner who, with the lower floor, would NEVER have the profit incentive to improve his product. The current system does discourage that sort of thing, and nobody can be too tightfisted. But there are times a team may NEED to legitimately conserve its resources, and now it doesn’t have that choice, and it’s a serious handicap to the smaller-market teams.
The NFL has a floor, but they also have many advantages over the NHL: first, league-wide fiscal health (and it’s first cousin, a rigorous revenue-sharing system). Second, much larger rosters (so losing a few players to the cap isn’t necessarily as harmful). Third, the ability to renegotiate cap-killing contracts to keep star players. Fourth, non-guaranteed contracts – cut a guy and he’s gone. It’s no harm to spend to the floor that way, because your mistakes are no longer permanently crippling, undermining the long-term playing strength of your team. Besides that, draft picks are older and able to immediately contribute much more often than NHL draftees. The NFL needs no minor league, and its practice squads are only eight players (mostly as hedges against injury).
If the NHL had rules and advantages like that I would drop my objection: the Isles could cut RDP when their goalies are ready, renegotiate with Okposo and Moulson to keep JT, and that would be that. Since they don’t have them, the NHL needs to be more creative. They’re never going to be as flush with cash as the NFL: The teams play no more than 10 home games a year, they have such a lucrative TV contract that the entire league payroll is practically paid before the year has begun (so all the gate and merchandising is pure gravy). The NHL is still primarily gate-receipt-driven. Those teams that can’t draw need to be able to hold down costs in a reasonable manner while they build a team worth following.
My suggestion is far from perfect. I’m open to better ones.
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Very nice article
Although I’m continually perplexed at what, exactly, everyone around here loves so much about Martin and his 1 pt in 17 games.
Yes, I know, he’s playing 4th line minutes, blah blah blah — but why is he restricted to 4th lines minutes on such a shitty team if he’s got the goods?
Because he’s not Park, Sim or Gillies. I’ve seen him live twice now, he looks like he’ll be a solid player.
"If I wear an Islanders game-worn jersey will that mean that I’ll score infrequently?" - rtarturo
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Will be a solid player. Right now? Not so much. I know everyone loves that he hits and fights but he’s not really helping the team win right now.
by TMS on Dec 9, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
Martin
I think it’s that he actually hits and plays with energy. I don’t think he’ll ever be anything more than an energy guy — though it’s harder to tell when you’re on a dead-offense team getting minutes next to Konopka and Gillies — but fans always like somebody who plays like that.
I don’t know, are people actually expecting him to be a scorer? Like one beyond “put him in front of the net on the PP sometimes” type scoring?
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
In the grand scheme of things...
I see Martin as a middle six guy with 10-15 goal potential. On a better team he’d still be in BPT improving his skating and finding his identity.
I’d actually like to see him with Schremp and Comeau for a few shifts every game. I think he’s the kind of guy who can create space for those two and get their numbers back in shap.
If he can handle the PK minutes, and finding enough opportunities to be physical, even without any offensive minutes, I say give him time. He’s grow a lot as a hockey player since he was drafted. He’ll be fine.
Jack's not nimble, Jack's not quick, but Jack can get another top five pick!
I’d actually like to see him with Schremp and Comeau for a few shifts every game.
I wouldn’t mind that at all. By “energy guy” I do think it’s within his potential to make a ruckus on better lines now and then, create some space. I hope he’s feeling comfortable enough now where he could join a line like that and bark Comeau’s ass off. “Drive the net! If someone does something stupid, I got your back!”
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
Landeskog, if we draft him, may be closer to a Gillies
although not as big maybe. He will likely be a 40-40 guy or at least 30-30 and he can fight and hit as well.
I kind of think ...
you answered your own question. I don’t think anyone sees Martin racking up huge numbers himself, but he does have the skills to contribute some production. But moreso, he has the goods to muscle his way to the puck along the boards and in the corners and get it to the guys out front who are supposed to finish. That’s why I’m continually frustrated by not seeing him out there with Moulson and Tavares more. Not to mention his value as an insurance policy for those team assets. I’m not saying he’s Gillies (Clarke) or Bob Probert, but I wouldn’t mess with Martin. The guy gets a crazed look in his eyes that is scary, and he can handle himself pretty damn well enough to dissuade some of the nonsense that JT et al have to endure. I will be very surprised if we don’t see the coach try Martin out there more with those guys soon. Is there any good reason why not to at this point?
Do you not know?
That he was brought up as an energy guy and not a scorer?
Constantly building for the future.
I don’t see how he has “shined” or why people rave about him, then. Guys like that are a dime a dozen.
Sure would be nice to ever net a consistent scorer. Sigh.
I feel you on that.
But its nice to have someone who hits as much as he does and who can play a bit of hockey. Basically replacing Gillies and Sim in one. Maybe make room for someone who can score.
Constantly building for the future.
I'll bet pound for pound
he is averaging more hits per game than anyone in the NHL. He is currently 7th in 17 games. On a team that scores, that may be more important on a team that can score off of big hits and turnovers, but if MMA hits a guy, and the only people are around to retrieve the puck are Gillies, Konopka or Sim, does he make a goal horn sound? Also, he beats some ass. I could see him becoming an energy type, lead by example alternate captain in a few years…he was never even supposed to make the NHL, but he works his ass off.
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by Keith Quinn on Dec 8, 2010 8:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Dammit this is nonsense, I was interrupted!
On a team that scores, that may be more important on a team that can score off of big hits and turnovers,
I meant to say, his hits might be more important if he was on a team that can score of of turnovers!
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Hells yeah. Talk about turning little into something big.
I liked the newyorkislanders.com article up on his game and journey here today. Good read. Went from ohl enforcer to high energy/hard-hitting/fighting 4th/3rd liner with great size and a little offensive potential.
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a couple of weeks ago ...
someone likened martin to nystrom. at the time, i thought it was a pretty good comparison, and it stuck with me.
when he first got here everyone thought nystrom was just a fighter. then we saw he could skate, and dig the puck out of tough spots and get it to guys who could bury it. then, before too long he started clearing some space for himself and putting decent numbers up on his own. he gained confidence and grew into a solid all-around player. as i recall, he ended up scoring a few pretty important goals for this team.
aye-aye, it’s a different game now. but not that different. i think matt martin has a lot of the same qualities #23 did. i hope we get the chance to see if he does.
by dose on Dec 8, 2010 9:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Amen
I see it too, I think that was either me or I was part of that conversation with JP. Anyone that works that hard has a great chance at success. I have a #20 Steve Webb jersey. Tell me that batch of limited offense didn’t make a difference…in the playoffs even. Sometimes guys like that rub off on other lesser talent players and convince them that they can contribute…then they do!
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'hell yeah. and 'sometimes guys like that ...
rub off on other’ MORE talented players too.
You mean they told him not to score?
Come on – teams need as much production as they can get from everyone. I hate it when baseball guys excuse the 2nd basemans .500 OPS because ’he’s there for his defense’ as though his lack of production doesn’t hurt the team.
by TMS on Dec 9, 2010 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
It's a little different in hockey though
I mean I see what you’re saying, but it’s not to the degree of baseball because a hockey player (except for the great ones) is still dependent on his linemates. Tavares can go 10 games without scoring next to Moulson and Parenteau/Comeau/whomever. Martin can sure as hell go weeks without scoring next to Gillies and Konopka and whatever spot shifts he gets on other lines.
In other words, in hockey a marginal guy’s lack of production might not be hurting the team — it might be because of the team.
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
Plain and Simple.
He is a high energy player that hits a lot, can fight well, is still young, is 6’3’’ 210lbs+(and can fill it out still), and realistically has 3rd line potential(good 4th liner right now). He does have some pk’ing, pp front of the net, agitating, net crashing, and I hear 3rd line playmaking potential. I’m sure no one here thinks he’s a future top 6, but he is VERY fun to watch. No?
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Matt Martin is a true third line guy
He’s a third liner that is not a carbon copy of all of the other Islanders third liners. The Islanders third and fourth liners are mostly guys who are really supposed to be second line offensive skill players, but play on the third line because there are so many of them and they aren’t good enough to play first or second line minutes consistently..
Nice ReCap How about NOW
I appreciate the look at the past and the Future; However, we were told Playoffs, or at least contention this year.
I understand that no FA wants to come to LI, I also understand it is a business and Mr. Wang is losing tons of money (good for taxes , bad for reality).
What could Snow have done to help our depth if our farm system is too young and not ready to trade yet.
I thought we had to improve our scoring this year along with the D. I heard only negatives about Frolov, but he has been a 20+ goal scorer (although streaky I believe) and the other option was Panikorofsky (sp?) who left the Pens. Were either of these really an option. Was anyone else really a decent option.
On D, Eaton is sound but not physical, would Jason Studwick have been better. Was Gordon’s system and “overdrive” a deterrent to some players.
Thanks for the site, I love the data and the banter.
Handy little draft breakdown (in case someone was wondering)
2007:
3rd – Mark Katic
3rd – Jason Gregoire
7th – Simon Lacroix
2008:
1st – Josh Bailey
2nd – Corey Trivino
2nd – Aaron Ness
2nd – Travis Hamonic
3rd – David Toews
3rd – Jiri Niemi
3rd – Kirill Petrov
4th – Matt Donovan
4th – David Ullstrom
5th – Kevin Poulin
5th – Matt Martin
6th – Jared Spurgeon
6th – Justin di Benedetto
2009:
1st – John Tavares
1st – Calvin de Haan
2nd – Mikko Koskinen
3rd – Anders Nilsson
4th – Casey Cizikas
5th – Anton Klementiev
6th – Anders Lee
2010:
1st – Nino Niederrieter
1st – Brock Nelson
3rd – Kirill Kabanov
3rd – Jason Clark
5th – Tony Dehart
7th – Cody Rosen
by Nyntwun on Dec 8, 2010 4:30 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Thanks
I probably should have linked to This Too
"If I wear an Islanders game-worn jersey will that mean that I’ll score infrequently?" - rtarturo
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Excellent read!
Thanks for putting this together.
The biggest question is how do they look after this year. They have an excellent crop of “supporting” players now, and no real studs. They can win with three lines that are responsible and productive. The natural selection process will be interesting this year… even more so than the hockey. snow is going to more of a puzzle solver than a GM from June to August.
Jack's not nimble, Jack's not quick, but Jack can get another top five pick!
by JPinVA on Dec 8, 2010 4:48 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Puzzle solver
That’s why it sucks if JT only amounts to a good scorer and not a team-carrier. (Too early to tell.) You get at best a couple of shots at the top of the draft and you don’t get to choose who that year’s stud is.
If yours isn’t a game-changer, even without being stuck with the Isles’ lack of drawing power, there aren’t many other routes to get them unless Boston calls you one day and says, “I’m dying to trade Joe Thornton for pennies on the dollar.”
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
I don't think anyone can carry a team by themselves.
Even Crosby Ovechkin and Stamkos can’t. They all have much better teammates then JT. I don’t think Moulson is a 1st liner on many good teams and he’s the best JT has to work with. I don’t think JT is going to be as good as Crosby of Ovi, but still up there with them. Sometimes I think he’d be better off in BP to develop more but I think this year is just going to keep him working his hardest. The kids going to be a stud no doubt, he just doesn’t have enough help just yet.
Constantly building for the future.
I disagree about Moulson
Imagine the points Moulson would put up if he played for Pittsburgh, where he’d undoubtedly be on Sid’s wing.
I just don’t see him as a real sniper. His goals are all in front of the net and I just feel JT would benefit from someone who can really snipe.
Constantly building for the future.
actually, he had less goals from the front of the net last year then JT or Kyle.
He puts a lot of shots on net from everywhere.
"If I wear an Islanders game-worn jersey will that mean that I’ll score infrequently?" - rtarturo
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Hmm
Maybe these last 18 games have just brought out the pessimist in me. Just looked that he leads the team in shots and has above a 12 percent. But still I can see him being used as a very good second liner and on the PP first line on some other teams.
Constantly building for the future.
I think Moulson's goals
are as clutch or as sniperiffic as they are gonna get because on a whole, we are terrible and lose. Within game, he has been credited with a few beautiful goals this year, but they are lost in the haze of a 5-2 blowout. His goals unfortunately aren’t important and therefore not memorable because regardless of how, when, or where from he scores, we lose. Moulson may not be a first liner on a lot of teams, but I bet on most other teams, he would still be a 30 goal scoring second liner with a will to win…I’ll take it until Nino and one of the Kirill’s or Kyle hit their stride.
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That's true
But I wasn’t trying to say he wasn’t good. Just saying I’d think JT stats will be better when he has Nino to his left because hes another game changer.
Constantly building for the future.
JT
will be great but I don’t think he will be anything close to Crosby or Ovi. Ovi is a scoring machine with an incredible shot from just about anywhere inside the blue line. Crosby has Gretzky like vision, great hands, and skills beyond belief.
I like what I see from JT and it is early but I don’t think he is even in the same category as those two. You can argue that those guys joined better teams upon reaching the NHL but that can’t account for the fact that they both doubled JT’s first year point production in their rookie years.
"We've made a final offer. We hope Ziggy Palffy will come to his senses. We have NO hope his agent will." - Mike Milbury
Crosby and Ovi
Are better than JT no doubt. But I still can see him panning out to be an elite in the game.
Constantly building for the future.
I don’t think anyone can carry a team by themselves.
Agreed, that was just shorthand for a superstar who can change a game more nights than not. There is a glitz or expectation that comes with a top overall pick that is kind of independent of the fact some years are better than others.
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
agreed
I think this year’s draft, they aim for that guy, the way they did with JT. Maybe both together make some magic start to happen, or maybe JT makes the leap – some stud players take a few seasons, and remember, the kid’s 20.
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I know it’s "too early to tell" w/ JT but the dude can’t skate. When he finds himself with time and space he generally makes a good play. But in 100 games now (not that I’ve watched all of them) I don’t think I’ve ever seen him really create his own space.
I’ve seen him take the puck along the boards, make a slow deke w/ the puck and have it taken off his stick about a hundred times. I’ve seen him try to make cuts in open ice to get around defensemen in an attempt to find open ice only to be removed from the puck about a hundred times as well.
I think that’s the big problem for the Isles is all those teams that were cited in this post (Hawks, Kings, Pens) got lucky and got at least one or two perennial all stars. I still have hope that KO of JB can be that, but I think as far as first overall picks go, they whiffed on Tavares. He’ll be good I think and useful in the right circumstances, but not as a front-line player.
Hopefully this years draft will get the Isles their own Crosby or Malkin or Toews (not David) or Kane or Doughty or Kopitar.
"It don't make you a bad person" - Ron Bennington
Reap what the draft sows
Whatever your evaluation of Tavares may be, I wouldn’t call it a whiff, you get what you can get out of any draft. There just wasn’t any generational talent the year the Islanders had the number 1 pick. That’s not an organizational thing, it is the one area I can truly attribute to dumb luck.
Totally agree. It was no fault of the organization that there was no can’t miss guy in the ‘09 draft, just unfortunate. I’m not blaming the Isles, just hoping this year they can get ‘the guy.’
Obviously it’s still early w/ Tavares and a better system or supporting cast or more experience could transform his game but I can’t imagine a guy that can’t skate at an NHL level will ever be an elite player.
"It don't make you a bad person" - Ron Bennington
Agree on his skating limitations
The only thing I’d say to counter is that there are players who can star without being dynamic skaters, and they’re able to do it with both hands and vision — which he has. Now, of course most of those guys aren’t centers…
But his assets were never about deking through players on the rush or anything like that. There’s really only a handful of players who can do that frequently.
I also agree on the lucky stars of other teams’ rebuilds, of course.
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
Gretzky was not a fast skater.
He was very agile – but so is JT. I think he just needs to skate harder. Or maybe its conditioning and he’s getting tired and slowing down.
by TMS on Dec 9, 2010 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
also
He had Kurri, Messier, Coffey, Anderson, etc etc etc. You couldn’t just muscle up on Gretz. (And if you did, Dave Semenko would muscle up on you.)
known far and wide for stat-fu and irking people
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
JT not being a Sid just means our rebuild will be a little different
more like the Dynasty team here with a lot of hard working and talented players. Nino and whoever we draft this summer may score more goals than JT. And if JT is scoring 35-40 a year, that would be pretty good. I’d take it.
Your GM gave up seven draft picks to take Calvin De Haan.
I wouldn’t be too smug if I were you.
Resident Capologist
Сертыфікаваны Grabbo Палюбоўнік
Math error
They traded four picks to get two. Then they traded three more (including the two they’d just acquired in the previous deal) to get one. All told, they sent their 37, 62, 92 and 182 in return for moving up from 26th to 12th.
Didn’t you guys have a similar situation in the Toronto media, where Cox couldn’t even get the number of picks for some trade-up right?
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
by Dominik on Dec 9, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
P.S.
And Christ, exactly who is being smug here? No one can bring up Burke’s open, repeated desire for Tavares during summer 2009 nor his precedent of trading top picks for a top RFA before? WTF.
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
by Dominik on Dec 9, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Team Goals
Team Goals should be to win today. Forget about the playoff expectations. If we focus on winning today the playoffs will take care of themselves. When we make the playoffs again then we can make playoff and cup expectations. Until then our goal is to win today. Game today we want to win it. No game today we want to prep for the next. Snow should win the draft. Scouts should go the extra mile. Focus on today’s task at hand and take care of business. The future is out of our control but today can be won. Do this and the rebuild will be successful.
by upstate islander on Dec 8, 2010 5:17 PM EST reply actions
This thread really depresses me
The team is years and several drafts away from being even remotely competitive.
Antidote
Maybe try painting your tanks in bright pretty colors?
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
What do you mean by competitive?
I think we should be able to make the playoffs next year with the right players resigned, right ufa(nobody huge or high impacting) brought in, and the right 1st round pick brought in(larsson or landeskog should make the team out of camp without question given size/play/maturity).
Being a cup contender is a couple years away though.
LighthouseHockey.com, where debates about Scrooge happen!
As always, I think WebBard is optimistic as hell.
However, I’ll be taking finals for the next two weeks, so I can’t post my article on the Isles Long Term Outook and Strategy.
The Title of the piece is going to be: Improving the Isles: How a SMALL MARKET team can break through and become a contender.
It’s that title that shows why WebBard is optimistic…two of those other teams (CHI and PIT) will be able to always spend more on players than the Isles, at least until 2015 and the third is currently spending more as well, though I’m not convinced the Kings can sustain that.
Pitt is small market
They did the threatening look over in KC five years before we did. The team almost folded. They had a run of real bad years before it all came together. That team is actually a close representation of what we are going through and should do to improve.
There is a lighthouse at the end of the tunnel.
Pitt is not a small market in hockey due to outside fans of the team.
Team was never in true danger of moving or folding. at all.
Pittsburgh had a miserable, vacant fanbase during their bad years
Not sure how to define “true danger.” If they hadn’t gotten help with the arena, which took a nuclear threat to secure…not sure what history could have saved them.
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
Nuclear threat and gambling....
It took a fan base of addicts to finance their stadium.
Indeed…when all else fails, BUILD A CASINO!
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
The reason I compared Pitt/Chi/LA to the Isles is because all three teams did the rebuild the right way. Sure there’s some big salaries with the Blackhawks, but even their core is all players who came up through the system.
Look at 02 when the Isles had a good year, people show up. At the game I was at over the weekend half the jerseys you see are from that period of time. If the Islanders continue the youth movement and keep the youngsters around the roster will be that much less expensive but that much more competitive.
"If I wear an Islanders game-worn jersey will that mean that I’ll score infrequently?" - rtarturo
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
I'm not disagreeing, w/regards to the core, but those teams could have faster rebuilds due to the ability to add payroll.
Also, here’s a question for people that I don’t know the answer: Were the Islanders profitable in 2002? How much?
No, according to Forbes they lost 10 million. According to the same source they haven’t been profitable since 99
"If I wear an Islanders game-worn jersey will that mean that I’ll score infrequently?" - rtarturo
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Its been the lease all along
The Isles have been saddled with the “worst” lease in professional sports. It was nearly impossible for them to make money unless they reversed the lease (ala lighthouse project).
The Isles were getting only a percent of the tickets, no concessions, no parking and only a % of the advertising revenue. Our SMG friends were getting the rest
FYI
The only other lease of such imbalance was ……. the Pitt Penguins lease with SMG which killed them in the 90s and into the 00s. Once that was fixed: Well we know that story.
HMMMMM
Maybe its SMG everyone should be blaming instead
by neologizer on Dec 8, 2010 10:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Fodder for the study: How much does payroll matter?
I agree it’s huge for speeding up a rebuild when you can add payroll quickly, and the Isles can’t seem to do that even if they did make it rain because the players won’t come anyway.
But this quick look at salary vs. success was worth a gander. I suspect it’s the teams that spend a lot — but spend poorly — that alter the results.
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
The team will probably be between AP77 and WebBard's outlooks next year
Looking at that graph of the rebuilders I see that the Isles were the best or second-best out of the group as recently as 2007. Those other teams then took three years or more after bottoming out before becoming powers: Pitt had four straight years under 70 points, Chicago four straight under 80, LA three straight under 80 (and six straight under 90). You could toss St. Louis and Washington in there as well – the Blues had 57-81-79 pts between playoff years, the Caps had 59-70-70. And none of them had to basically start over from zero.
The Isles have gone 79-61-79 in points since ‘07. That is comparable or better than any other of the five teams now held up as models of young competitve clubs. This year is a definite step backward but not the end of the world – at least, not considered by itself. The consensus before the year was that we were aiming for 2011-12 to make a good playoff push; we’re on track, and winding up with a top-three pick in the bargain and a real impact player, PLUS Nino, PLUS a more experience Hamonic, a healthy Streit and full year from KO…. suddenly it begins to look like we haven’t done anything differently than any of those other guys, and were patient, and will now see returns.
(Warning sign – I do NOT like the muted rumblings that this team doesn’t work hard enough in practice, regardless of head coach. That is the absolute easiest way to squander the promise of these youngsters. The second-easiest is to give them no good on-ice examples to learn from and play with…. earning the respect of a guy like Doug Weight is a rite of passage that’s important to the psychology of a young player, that I do not think can be safely dispensed with. Not everyone is wired with an endless drive to excel no matter what, some guys do better with that approval; and it’s no shame to them, any more than it’s a shame not to be 6’ 4". But shame on the team if they don’t get a guy like that onto the team post-haste.)
The circus surrounding the Isles is OUR circus so we know much more about it. There were circuses in those other cities too. Pittsburgh went from bankrupt to new arena and Stanley Cup. The one guy from the pressbox at the Coli who was quoted as saying that we looked like the Hawks under Bill Wirtz – well, the Hawks have a Cup now too. Your lips to God’s ears, buddy. Time will tell on the others, like it will on the Isles. I don’t like what’s happening this year, and there have been a metric ton of dumb and petty PR blunders – I still think the on-ice progress is there.
known far and wide for stat-fu and irking people
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
I agree the on-ice progress is there. They’ll start winning some games this year too. I’m still worried about Ricky a little. I hope his next few starts are good ones – but I agree the progress is there even if is hasn’t shown up in the standings.
by TMS on Dec 9, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
Comeau...
IMO is not much of a draft success at all. I think he needs to go a la Joe Thornton. Get somebody like Brian Gionta or a young version of Jason Blake. Granted that is a lot easier said than done, but I think it has been proven that Comeau just isn’t a true NHL scorer.
The New York Islanders....they make opposing goalies look gooooood.
part of the Point, that the “best” of the 01-05 drafts isn’t all that good.
"If I wear an Islanders game-worn jersey will that mean that I’ll score infrequently?" - rtarturo
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Nice 3rd period comeback by the Sound Tigers tonight. 5-3 (EN) win in Bridgeport
Bailey with the game winner late in 3rd period (PP 16:52 assisted by D. Reese, R. Rakhshani. Rakhshani added a PP goal. Poulin with 21 saves for the win..
Rakhshani now leads all active rookies in the AHL with 22 points in 26 games
Butler who was leading in rookie scoring was recently promoted to Ottawa. Rakhshani and Bailey seem to work well together especially on the PP.
Euro stuff...
I think I can shed light on some of the Euro-heavy drafts from 2001-2005. First off, interesting as it makes Milbury’s “Eurotrash” comments even more hilarious considering he drafted so Euro heavy.
First off, the Isles weren’t the only teams to go Euro heavy in later rounds, in fact most teams did this. Between the old CBA and the lack of solid transfer agreements between the NHL and the major European hockey countries, this allowed teams to hold players rights virtually indefinitely. This was not the case with North American players where at 20 CHL players either signed or reentered the draft or signed after leaving college. Up until this past offseason when the new transfer agreement began the Isles still held the player rights to several Swedish guys from those drafts like Emil Axelsson, Per Braxenholm and Markus Paulsson. This is also part of the gamble, for every Henrik Zetterberg, there are two dozen Per Braxenholms drafted.
Another thing is several overaged European guys were drafted, brought over and they just didn’t pan out. Again, this was common practice for many NHL teams. Instead of getting a Roman Chechmanek or Jussi Markonen, we got Dusan Salficky’s 1 AHL game and back to the Extraliga because he was pissed about splitting time with DiPietro in Bridgeport. Instead of Mark Streit, we had Johan Halvardsson obliterate his knee 11 games into his North American career.
The biggest mistakes I believe is more with the Euros Milbury drafted in the second and third rounds, specifically Dmitri Chernykh, Evgeny Tunik in 2003 and Sergei Ogorodnikov in 2004. These three guys were totally unproven, highly overrated by the Isles scouting staff and produced a whopping total of 0 NHL games between the three. the player drafted after Chernykh? Shea Weber. Also taken after Chernykh and Tunik, Pat O’Sullivan, David Backes and Max LaPierre. Taken after Ogorodnikov in the 3rd in 2004? Johan Franzen, Alexander Elder and Dustin Boyd.
It was worth posting my drivel to get that link… That was the Shizzle my HansunFrizzle! - JPinVA
After being fired as head coach, now a "Special Adviser" to Lighthouse Hockey
You have to wonder also
If Milbury wasn’t given some kind of financial mandate to draft players who looked good, but had limited chance of either coming over, or succeeding in the NHL just to avoid paying them (especially early in his career). It’s obvious that he doesn’t like these types of players even now right.
Sarcasm experience enhanced by Samsung (TM)
I think you’re on to something. Specifically with the overaged guys I seem them as a kind of Moneyball-like idea taking collegiate players in MLB’s draft. Yes they might have a lower ceiling but you have a better understanding of the players they are and will be. So drafting the Halvardsson or Salfickys, if they succeed, great! Guys who are cheaper than North American guys of the same age and production because they’re on entry levels. If they fail, oh well… It’s not that much money invested in them.
It was worth posting my drivel to get that link… That was the Shizzle my HansunFrizzle! - JPinVA
After being fired as head coach, now a "Special Adviser" to Lighthouse Hockey
by David Hanssen on Dec 8, 2010 9:41 PM EST up reply actions
Wow -you know a lot about the Isles draft history.
by TMS on Dec 9, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
It's pretty scary.
Add archaeology, Nordic history and ancient languages to his arsenal, and you have a most curious being.
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
Thanks?
You forgot theology now… If any of those topics actually translated into the real world, I’d be on to something!
It was worth posting my drivel to get that link… That was the Shizzle my HansunFrizzle! - JPinVA
After being fired as head coach, now a "Special Adviser" to Lighthouse Hockey
by David Hanssen on Dec 9, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
The best things in life have no real-world application
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
But will they stay ??????
All this is fine if they stay past 2015. If there just building up so they can win as the KC Inlanders it would totally suck. It means nada until we know for sure if they stay.
Come on wanger just tell us What’s the deal?
by Torch7 on Dec 8, 2010 10:36 PM EST via mobile reply actions
KC is a joke
IF you crank the numbers KC is a joke. Suffolk/Nassau alone has more people then the KC metro area, there’s a great divide in household earnings, in corporate earnings and general financial base compared to LI. Besides how’s KCs current sports franchises doing? Royals and the wizards – both bottom of their leagues in standings and valuation. Sure the Isles would fit right in but would they do any better?
Agree, K.C. is already maxed out, and I can’t imagine an owner wanting to relocate a team from this market to there. The only thing that scares me is Friend of Gary, Mr. Anschutz, has a shiny new arena there awaiting a tenant.
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
I agree and not so much about KC,
but anywhere other than say Queens….that is the biggest disappointment, and this is where it is the owners obligation to let the fans know what the thought process is right now to ease the uneasiness. I don’t need an answer and I don’t really think you are just sitting and waiting until the lease ends in 2015. Are you looking at local options? WTF Wang Chung?
Tambellini
don’t look now but he has 5 goals in11 games on 24 shots. That i smore than everyone on the Isles except JT, Moulson, and Grabner.
maybe it was Gordon’s system that hurt him, wonder how he would be in Capuano’s system
Any task BIG or small, Do it well or not at all
Or maybe putting him on a line with speedy talent that scores even without his presence just makes him look decent.
Even Travis Green looked good between Kariya and Selanne.
waits for TMC’s gutless puke comment
"If I wear an Islanders game-worn jersey will that mean that I’ll score infrequently?" - rtarturo
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Gutless puke! Gutless puke!
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Dec 15, 2010 7:58 PM EST up reply actions
Still wouldn't want him on anything higher then our 3rd line, and even them I'm not sure I'd give him the roster spot outright.
LighthouseHockey.com, where debates about Scrooge happen!
yes and...
Watching Vancouver broadcasts they rave about Tambellini because of his hustle and physical play. True he’s playing with Kessler and Raymond but he’s being credited with making that line more dangerous currently than the Isles number one line. Announcers were raving and asking how on earth do the Isles let this kid go?
GIves me definate pause about our “braintrusts” ability to identify talent or put it in a position to be successful.
We have seen this before though
Last year on Nov. 1 he had 6 goals on 21 shots. Then…1 goal on his next 38.
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
but it seemed as if he didnt get consistent top line minutes…he was usually put on the 3rd and 4th lines….
True
I think it’s a mix of both, honestly — I was just pointing out that a guy with a good shot can get hot. But he had his multiple chances over the years. I was often torn on him, often advocating for a better chance, but I can also understand why he just needed a change. He seems to be the type whose a great guy but whose confidence can be shot.
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
His goal last night was a rebound tap-in. Anybody could have scored it. To be honest the 2 bigger mistakes are Greg Mauldin and Bergenheim. Both are doing well. I think the Isles underestimated Mauldin.
by TMS on Dec 9, 2010 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
The Isles and multiple teams
I don’t understand why Mauldin was never given a real shot. People who watched him always said the same. He’d have been worth paying more just to buttress Bridgeport but also to have a crack with the Isles.
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
Tremendous article and timely
and I would be remiss if I did not, as I have done before, recommend Jimmy Devellano’s book, “The Road to Hockeytown”. It took him five years to build a team with a winning record in Detroit in a capless era with owners who gave him carte blanche. Over and over he stressed the need to build around the draft and be P-A-T-I-E-N-T. He specifically refers to the Isles and stresses that their attendance will be fine again when they start winning as it was during the Dynasty era. He makes comments specifically about the Leafs that could apply to the Rangers and the Milbury era Islanders as to how NOT to try to build a champion.
Have to disagree with JPinVA. Garth had no real choice but to rebuild totally in 2008. There really wasn’t much from the Milbury era worth saving. Once Ryan Smyth flew the coop, a total rebuild was the only way forward. Should add that Nilsson and O’Maara have been the butt of Oil Country vitriol ever since and more than a few bloggers have seen Nilsson’s contract buyout this summer as an important milestone in their rebuild.
Have already gone on record saying Comeau should be traded. I suspect that he may be one of the country clubbers. It may be that no one would want him of course. Moulson, Okposo, Bailey, Joensuu, Grabner, Martinek, and Konopka should all be re-signed and I would move to do that sooner rather than later. I suspect that the only way there would be a problem re-signing them is if a fair offer is not made. Wiz and Jurcina are probably going to be dealt prior to the deadline as may Roli.
And it goes without saying that Wang would be doing the franchise a great service by making clear what his post-Lighthouse arena plan is sooner rather than later.
Thanks for the tip on the book. I think I’ll read that.
by TMS on Dec 9, 2010 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
You're welcome!
Anyone who wants to know what it takes to rebuild a dead franchise (they called Detroit the Dead Wings when Jimmy took over!) should read the book.
REBUILD
I’ve read all the posts here, and all make a lot of sense. I refuse to give up on a team with so much potential on the doorstep. Two veteran players (a scoring winger + solid D) to help encourage our youth movement really would help. The single hardest thing to deal with in a “total & massive” (my take) rebuild is the frustration of watching your team go through these growing pains. After last year, I thought the signs of progress were very encouraging; the start this year (without KO & Streit) was dynamic. But, the injury bug took its toll and now it seems all is lost this year. BUT, who is to blame for that?? I think most of us had very unrealistic expectations for this team after that 4-1-2 start. We tend to forget that most of these kids are barely out of college, and we expect them to perform at high levels based on “potential” (the single most deadly word in sports). The second hardest thing to deal with in a rebuild is PATIENCE. No matter how much talent we might have on the horizon, it takes time to put it all together. The Crosbys, Ovis, and Stamkos of this world are truly one in a million, and would not succeed without the benefit of strong supporting casts. Washington, in particular, has one of the most dynamic supporting casts in hockey. To this day I do not understand how they lost so soon last year. We need to build this supporing cast just like we had in the dynasty years. Yeah, we had Torts and Bossy and Potvin BUT we also had the Kallurs, Tonellis, Nystroms, Howatts, Perssons, Lewis’s and Sutters to back up the superstars. Right now, we have more suppoting players and not enough superstars. BUT, the future is still bright if only the owner does the right thing. If we lose even one of these future stars the fanbase’s patience will end and support for this team will evaporate. I am praying every night for two things: that the Wilpons will sell the Mets and that Wang will sell the Islanders. Only then will I feel even remotely secure about the future of this rebuild and this franchise.
What part of REBUILD don't you understand??
I like your synopsis of this blog and I totally agree. As a life long Isles fan I am running out of patience. I hate Ranger fan coming up to my grill and telling me how they know hockey when they don’t even know who John Tonelli is. I just hope whoever is the next owner of the Islanders does the right thing and hires the next Bill Torrey. Hang in their my Islander friend.
I’m not going anywhere anytime soon…but if Wang lets some of these guys walk away, I’ll be severely pissed and completely demoralized…‘til then I’m on board for the duration…why not, I was there at the beginning.
What part of REBUILD don't you understand??
by upstateislesfan on Dec 9, 2010 9:58 AM EST up reply actions
but if Wang lets some of these guys walk away, I’ll be severely pissed and completely demoralized
agree. If Wang can’t bring back everyone that’s important to the rebuild, or suddenly we start hearing about stalled negotiations, I’m going to lose a lot of faith.
But as of right now, everything appears to be going alright.
"If I wear an Islanders game-worn jersey will that mean that I’ll score infrequently?" - rtarturo
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
How do u feel, MAMAMONKEY???
Howards on for 5 more years of torment for u, lol
I agree
The growing pains and especially this year is BRUTAL to deal with but you can’t expect a smooth upward tick just yet. Esp considering some major injuries. Like WebBard pointed out, they haven’t done anything yet that shows they aren’t committed to trying to rebuild “the right way” and that’s why I still believe. They don’t necessarily NEED a superstar, but if they were to stumble upon one that would be enormous.
"It don't make you a bad person" - Ron Bennington
We got our hopes raised by a fast start and then dashed by a brutal even by re-building standards slide. I was hoping for slight improvement this year, but more than anything a chance to see what some of the kids could do. I expected that the more we relied on the kids the bigger step backwards we would take as well. It is all part of the growing process. I still would have like a veteran winger to play on the first line and a crease clearing defensemen to make the transition a little smoother and to give the kids some relief. For whatever reason it didn’t happen, not enough $$, unwillingess to come to the Island or the GM didn’t feel the need.
I also felt without another top 5 pick we wouldn’t have the talent to move forward beyond this year either, so worse than where we are now would have been a 9th spot in the East and 17th overall so that we miss out on the playoffs and a top pick. That scenario would leave us in an even deeper state of mediocrity going forward.
The question is..........
Besides Martin the D and Free agent , did Snow try and did he have the money and OK from CW to pick up any strong good sized, vet skaters in the FA game or by trade? We just don’t know. One theory not often heard is that he would rather make an error of omission than comission. Meaning he was afraid to make a costly mistake with the bosses money, example Frilov. Well GMs are paid to make such decisions,and costly mistakes have been made Kovy with the Devils so far.
another disturbing sign
The GM has to be prudent, but after a certain point, if he’s scared of making a move that “the boss” may not like – something is wrong. The GM is the boss. The owner should trust him, or else the owner hired the wrong man… and if the owner doesn’t trust anyone, then the owner is the wrong man to work for.
In some ways the Isles are better off they have any right to be – Snow may have been hired as someone inexperienced, unestablished, and thus easier to control – but the Isles in spite of themselves got a guy with a lot of potential as a GM, he seems like a quick-learner and a hard-worker. He has a clue about how to build a team. He’s also got (for better or worse) some of that New England gumption, so Wang doesn’t completely domineer things. That’s why I get more and more angry about the Jankowski un-hiring every time I think of it. It’s gone in my mind from merely puzzling, to bungling, to a willful attempt to deny Snow support and resources of his own. If Snow’s worth anything, he will sooner or later resign rather than continually submit to that; if he’s not, he will fail because the owner denied him the resources to succeed. Either way, the fans and the team lose. If Wang really does value the team more than he values being in charge of it, he’s got to loosen up a little and quit meddling.
known far and wide for stat-fu and irking people
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Analysis paralysis
What you may be describing is Analysis paralysis, there is no such thing as a GM that does not make personnel mistakes. It will happen, you have to outnumber the bad with the good. The same logic goes along with stockpiling draft picks. It isn’t as exact a science as people would like it to be so you need a lot of picks to make sure you get something useful, maybe even a gem. The Islanders had no goaltenders beside DP and now they have four that have potential, could have just as easily turned out only one worked out, but they increased the odds.
RIGHT ON!!!!
What part of REBUILD don't you understand??
by upstateislesfan on Dec 9, 2010 12:14 PM EST reply actions
My thoughts
This site is amazing. I look at similar sites for other teams, and the intelligence and involvement on here has no comparison. Wang and Garth take note, if you happen to be perusing LHH here to check on the state of the populous, this site is a REPRESENTATION of the passion of the fans who have passed that culture down for decades.
Remember how loud the building was in ‘02; those fans are still here. Shit, when this season began I went to more than half the games in full support of hopeful, albeit small, progress. Then, after sitting atop first place for a day or two, I brought my whole firehouse brethren to the Tampa game (now though, I’m not sure if my presence or absence in the stands sends the right message to Wang). But my point being that if prices werent raised, and Ox and Streit weren’t injured, and the team had the “fire” in them that comes from a non-country-club-atmosphere, having its top players to count on, veteran leadership, etc…PEOPLE WOULD BE GOING TO THESE GAMES, Lighthouse or not.
The bright side to me is that, if it all holds together through this patch of losses, passengers, firings and owner silence, the team will be even better than we thought for 2011-12 with this upcoming #1 or 2 pick. How great would that be, if these injuries ended up being a blessing, and maybe a veteran FA gets lured here by the possibility of playing with Tavares and Couturier/Larsson…and the team kicks ass next year and brings the fans back and sends a message to Wang’s World: This is still Islanders Country!
I live in Astoria, Queens and work in Fort Greene, Brooklyn. Just put the fucking new arena somewhere on this island and we will come.
"I think we got the better Lindros." - Fulla Maloney; "If I'm wrong about Kvasha, then off with my head" - Voldemort; "I find your lack of positive press disturbing" - Garth Vader
People would come
I agree. I don’t know if that location (access-wise) could ever do 18000 regularly, but we know people can fill that building when times are good. We’ve seen it. But no franchise draws well under these straits. Just seen the wild swings too often, in Pittsburgh, in Chicago, in St. Louis — hell, even in the Alberta teams — when all looks lost, a huge chunk of people rethink whether going is worth it. When things rebound, people return.
Oh, I also agree this site is amazing. ;)
Lighthouse Hockey: No Streit, no Okposo...not that we particularly care.
if the Isles were doin the right thing
they wouldnt hang the kids out to dry
What would you propose though?
Trading picks and prospects for overpaid older veterans? Not much out there, and anything big impacting that would bring a younger player here would cost the isles some valuable picks or decent prospects. Not sure I’m willing to do that at the cost of finishing 6th worst in the nhl instead of 2nd or 1st.
LighthouseHockey.com, where debates about Scrooge happen!
I dont know man…Your guess is as good as mine but the excuses are growing tired and redundent…I just dont see how this can all end up all well and good the way its going now…You cant expect young people with no experience to grow and become great without any examples to go by…Im afraid that JT is getting used to NOT scoring allot and that its become acceptable….Thats the example thats being set, failure…I used my work as an example before…I hire guys and I show them how to sell over the phone by DOING it and making money in front of the newbies….You cant just preach you need to lead by example…
I would say unless something crazy happens that Cap goes back down to the AHL next season. We just got to put our hopes in the right coach. Phoenix struggled for 4 seasons under Gretzky, supposedly he continually changed the system and had issues in general. They get a new coach and it’s a completely different team.
I don’t know who out there would be the best for them, but lets just hope whoever they hire is right for the job.
"If I wear an Islanders game-worn jersey will that mean that I’ll score infrequently?" - rtarturo
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Starts With Management
I respect what the writer has gone through to look at draft picks and the days of Mike Milbury but looking back on it Mike Milbury didn’t have much to work with either. Revolving door ownership, I mean really do we need to talk about the John Spano days? Milbury did make quite a few bad decisions but he must of been doing something right as a lot of Islanders from their drafting and minor league system went onto other teams to do quite well. Look at Zdeno Chara, Roberto Luongo just to name a couple.
I don’t think the selection of Garth Snow as GM was really a well thought out decision. From what I hear the Islanders management is a committee and decisions are made by everyone together. So in other words the GM doesn’t even really act a s a GM without getting approval from the ownership on everything. Doesn’t sound too good to me, at least not in sports. The GM should report back to ownership about money issues, not decisions on players or anything else regarding who’s on the ice especially non-hockey people. I mean really, we know Charles Wang isn’t a hockey person and the fact that he hired and fired his first GM choice Neil Smith says something & soon after Pat Lafontaine left because he didn’t want to be involved. So I don’t know what will happen in the future for this team but it does start with the management then the players. By the way Steve Yzerman is doing a great job in Tampa Bay, someone in Tampa’s ownership must of knew something about hockey. Maybe the Islanders ownership should talk to them and get some advice.
Milbury made some good picks in the late 90s, but then made some incredibly poor decisions with them. If he disagreed with the previous ownership, he could have resigned in protest. He did not. And his worst decsions with picks and prospects were made under Wang. My impression is that he was the guiding force behind those calls, not Wang. Between 2001 and 2005, as this article describes so well, Milbury made some incredibly bad calls, including the Yashin trade and the Parise miss.
Garth has a well deserved reputation for knowing players and winning their respect. He also has a bachelor’s and a masters degree in business management. He was probably as well qualified as anyone going into his assignment as GM. Over time, Garth has taken on more and more of the hockey operations to the point where I think it is fair to say that he really runs hockey ops and goes to Wang for money. Wang is probably more involved in the day to day business of the team than most owners, but that isn’t necessarily bad and it would appear as if he lets Garth call the shots on personnel.
Yzerman hasn’t really been on the job long enough to fairly assess his performance. I am sure he learned well in Detroit and that he will do well. The previous co-owners of the Bolts were remarkable for how much they hated each other and how disfunctional their ownership was. Jeff Vinik, who bought the team last year, is simply a fan like you and me who happens to have made a LOT of money in the financial industry. His choice of Yzerman is generally thought to have been inspired and does bode well for the team’s future, but I don’t know if he has any really valuable advice for Wang other than in his investment portfolio!!!
yes to this
also, Yzerman inherited a team already on the rise. He didn’t inherit a giant sucking hole in the ice. All Stevie Y had to do, really, was tweak here and there, light that candle, and get back to a safe distance.
I greatly fear that Garth is going to repair this franchise, get them all ready, and then a year like this will be his undoing – then the next GM will step in, tweak, light the candle – and boom, top-four seed.
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No, I think Wang is loyal and honors loyalty in others
If things got really bad, maybe Garth gets kicked upstairs like Jimmy D did with Detroit.
If he disagreed with the previous ownership, he could have resigned in protest. He did not.
In fact, he later said he hung on — at one point “hoped” to get fired" under the criminal owners — because he needed to pay for kids’ schooling. (In other words, quitting ends your compensation; getting fired presumably meant he’d still be owed whatever was on his contract.)
And agreed, we’re talking about moves he made under Wang when he had quite a bit of financial support.
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1979-80
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May 24, 1980: Tonelli to Nystrom. At long last, the steady build of the New York Islanders from expansion doormat to surprise semifinalist to annual contender reaches the promised land: Buoyed by a late season trade for Butch Goring that gave the team the depth up the middle GM Bill Torrey had been seeking, the Islanders knock off the Philadelphia Flyers in six games.
The victory justified the faith in coach Al Arbour who guided them from their second season to their first Stanley Cup seven seasons later. The Islanders would not be the first expansion team to win the Stanley Cup, but they would be the only one capable of a dynasty.
1980-81
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May 21, 1981: This time it was much easier. After falling to "only" 91 points in the 1979-80 season, the Islanders returned to their division title tradition, piling up 110 points -- a whole 13 points over second-place Philadelphia.
Between the quarterfinals (where they beat the upstart Oilers in six games) and the finals, the Islanders reeled off eight consecutive wins -- with a four-game sweep of archrival Rangers in between. As they defeated the Minnesota North Stars in five games for their second Cup, their goal difference in the final was a combined +10.
1981-82
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May 16, 1982: Another year, another landslide title. The Islanders won the Patrick Division by a whopping 26 points over the second-place Rangers, and were seven points clear of their nearest competition for the President's Trophy, the still-not-quite-ripe Edmonton Oilers.
A first-round scare against the Pittsburgh Penguins turned in the Isles' favor thanks to John Tonelli's heroics, and a true dynasty was on its way: Past the Rangers in six games, then an eight-game sweep of the Quebec Nordiques and Vancouver Canucks to run away with the Stanley Cup.
1982-83
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May 17, 1983: Not so fast, whipper-snappers. The Edmonton Oilers' steadily rising challenge for league supremacy took them all the way to the finals for the first time, where the New York Islanders summarily dispatched them in a four-game sweep. For the Islanders, the Dynasty was secured. For the Oilers, it was a powerful lesson in where talent ends and the demands of playoff hockey begin.
Four years, four Cups, 16 consecutive playoff series wins (a record that would grow to 19 until the rematch with the Oilers the following year). Mike Bossy scored 60 goals yet again, and Wayne Gretzky became acquainted with Billy Smith's crease.
