Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: NFL Roundtable: Which Draft Pick Is Most Likely To Bust?

Islanders 'Real' Power Ranking: Better than polls, barely

I have spoken to numerous NHL executives about advanced statistics and one of their biggest complaints is that the scoreboard is deceptive. When they win despite playing badly -- which happens all the time -- they have limited means to convince their players of their poor play.

Does that not sound like a variation of Scott Gordon's concern after the Florida swing, when he felt the team was feeling good thanks to (perhaps fortunate) early wins and falling into bad habits as a result? While part of my intention at this site is to live up every win and mourn every loss, if I could somehow ordain one orientation for every discussion it would be this: In single-game bites, the scoreboard can be deceptive. (Figuring out how deceptive, of course, is fodder for our endless debates.)

If you are at all intrigued by Corsi or "advanced stats" or any measure of hockey beyond "they won and looked good," I encourage you to read this post at Behind the Net from which the opening quote stems, to get a quick view of why statheads bother. Gabe's post is a takedown of a grumpy MSM writer's lament of all things numeric, but even if that's not your thing there are some great, very accessible observations there.

Star-divide

Because while everyone seeks their own basket of fun in this game -- from the calculatingly analytical to the "Just go troops, go!" -- there is something to be learned, or to at least think about, from this advanced stats perspective on the game.

It's not about treating players like unchanging autobots with finite values (although there are interesting attempts to peg a "wins" or "money" value to each player). It's not about trying to take the fun out of watching the game or enjoying a win streak. Rather, I'd argue at its heart it's about that quote above: An attempt to understand when a player or team is truly good, and when it's riding luck (puck luck, not injury luck) that's due to end -- the old, "Is this sustainable or do we need changes?" question..

To that end, we know shot totals (including blocked and missed shots, upon which Coris is based) are situational, context dependent. Nonetheless, in aggregate totaling those up -- Corsi or Fenwick, essentially -- can provide insight:

Point taken: it's tough to figure out what an individual shot is worth. But isn't the same true of individual goals?  Do teams never score lucky goals? Fortunately, we have a little thing called "the law of large numbers" - essentially, if you count up enough shots (or goals), the type of gun they came from tends to not matter.

I don't try to make this a stats site -- I'm not qualified even if I wanted to. But I do think everyone can benefit from the philosophic/conceptual side of seeing the game in this way. That's why I recommend anyone who's remotely interested in this angle to go read Gabe's post.

Survey of Media Power Rankings, Nov. 2

What did we say last week about the lag in national media opinion? While the Islanders were already entering the first week of what has been a two-week poor stretch, media rankings were still catching up to their hot start -- pushing them up in every media poll. This week, finally the warts are showing up in the opinion polls in a big way, with the Isles plummeting in every poll and landing in 20th in the true "power ranking."

 

Outlet Rank Last Week Their Commentary
CBSSports (Nov. 1) 27 15 Rick DiPietro's comeback hasn't been particularly smooth, and the Islanders have come back to earth with four losses in a row.
Col. Dispatch (Portzline, Nov. 1) 24 15 James Wisniewski has contributed more than a priceless Youtube clip. He's also the Islanders' leading scorer, with 2-9-11 in only eight games.
ESPN (Nov. 1)
25 11 Four straight losses, and that all-too-familiar feeling sets in. But this team is better than that.
Sportsnet (Brophy) 24 9 Just when it looked like the lovable Islanders might be this year’s surprise team, they drop four straight.
TSN (Cullen) 19 9 The Islanders are trying to go with the even split in goal, but it's sure tough to keep doing it when Rick DiPietro has a 3.75 GAA and .867 SV%.
SI (Muir) - 7
-pending-
SB Nation (conf) - 6 -pending-
Average 23.8 11 We were hoping for a longer feel-good narrative than this..

"Real" Power Rankings

One of our many "Mike"s around here, LHH reader ICanSeeforIslesandIsles, has created his own true "power" rankings by weighing teams' results against strong and weak opponents. A heavy strength of schedule component.

He was kind enough to share it with us, so hopefully it's something we can use throughout the season to get a real ranking beyond standings, beyond points percentage, and certainly beyond opinion polls.

I'm butchering it some, so here is his explanation of how these are calculated (and he'll be around later to answer questions):

How the table is calculated:

  • When Team A beats Team B, Team A earns Team B's percentage points (Column "Pct" in the table). Team B earns none.
  • If Team A wins in OT or a shoot-out, "A" earns "B"'s pct points, and "B" earns half of "A"'s points.
  • All Pct points earned are added up, and divided by the team's total number of games played. That's the "Earned/Game" column above.
  • Some people consider this "Earned/Game" column as the indication of how well a team has done, because it calculates how well a given team has done, while taking into account its strength of schedule.
  • I, however, wanted to go further. For any given team, I wanted to base their strength not only on their own strength of schedule, but also the strength of schedule of the teams they defeated. It's better to get a win against a team with 5 wins and 1 loss when that team has played against mostly first-place competition, versus a team with an identical record, who have played against teams who all have losing records.
  • Therefore, I then go back and calculate everything again as described above, only this time I use the "Points Earned / Game."
  • So, if Team A beats Team B, I add Team B's points earned per game to Team A's Power Rankings totals. After adding all of the points Team A earned, I again divide by number of games played to arrive at the final column, the "PWR" (Power Rankings points).

Here's how it looks as of last night's games (pardon some of roughness...I'm still working on ideal formatting). The Isles rank 20th by this measure, boosted by having played almost exclusively teams in the top half of these rankings. New Jersey and Buffalo look positively awful. Oh, and go Blues.

W L OTL Pts GP Win Pct Pts. Earned/GP PWR
(1) St. Louis 6 1 2 14 9 0.778 0.427 2319
Tampa Bay 7 2 1 15 10 0.750 0.422 2247
Detroit 6 2 1 13 9 0.722 0.359 2115
Nashville 5 2 3 13 10 0.650 0.390 2103
Los Angeles 8 3 0 16 11 0.727 0.378 1946
(6) Boston 6 2 0 12 8 0.750 0.369 1899
Philadelphia 7 4 1 15 12 0.625 0.321 1686
Colorado 6 4 1 13 11 0.591 0.324 1684
Montreal 7 3 1 15 11 0.682 0.312 1681
Washington 7 4 0 14 11 0.636 0.303 1666
(11) Calgary 6 5 0 12 11 0.545 0.316 1664
Columbus 6 4 0 12 10 0.600 0.309 1623
Dallas 6 4 0 12 10 0.600 0.300 1599
Vancouver 5 3 2 12 10 0.600 0.289 1575
Phoenix 3 4 3 9 10 0.450 0.313 1561
(16) San Jose 5 3 1 11 9 0.611 0.287 1515
Chicago 7 6 1 15 14 0.536 0.298 1506
NY Rangers 6 4 1 13 11 0.591 0.297 1506
Florida 4 5 0 8 9 0.444 0.270 1474
NY Islanders 4 5 2 10 11 0.455 0.278 1470
(21) Toronto 5 4 1 11 10 0.550 0.290 1470
Pittsburgh 6 5 1 13 12 0.542 0.271 1463
Atlanta 5 4 2 12 11 0.545 0.296 1453
Minnesota 4 4 2 10 10 0.500 0.272 1368
Edmonton 3 4 2 8 9 0.444 0.233 1330
(26) Carolina 5 6 0 10 11 0.455 0.241 1309
Anaheim 4 7 1 9 12 0.375 0.212 1143
Ottawa 4 6 1 9 11 0.409 0.182 1010
Buffalo 3 7 2 8 12 0.333 0.136 684
New Jersey 3 9 1 7 13 0.269 0.130 623

Comment 59 comments  |  2 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Feel free to ask questions, guys...

It’s lookin’ good, Dom!

I think the last bullet point got truncated, but I think you guys can see how it goes. After adding all those points, I divide by the total number of games again to come up with the average, which is the PWR column. Going through this second iteration, a few teams switch positions.

Anyway, the Isles’ four game skid was not kind to them. They were third overall until then. I’m guessing the table will become less volatile over the course of the season, after teams have had enough time in the schedule to play a majority of the league.

So ask away. It’s a rather straight-forward set of calculations that many high school football leagues use to determine who goes to the playoffs (since the HS season isn’t long enough for each team to play all other teams in their conference).

Hmmm.... you hit my goalie's head and it's hockey. I hit your goalie's post and it's a penalty. Oooooooooooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy,

by ICanSeeForIslesAndIsles on Nov 2, 2010 2:04 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks again for providing it

…and whoops, I fixed that final bullet point (I think).

Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and Schremp and MacDonald were important.

by Dominik on Nov 2, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep, you did.

But I’m not the most eloquent person in the world, so feel free to ask more questions. Other than a trip to the gym, I’ll be home all day / night.

Hmmm.... you hit my goalie's head and it's hockey. I hit your goalie's post and it's a penalty. Oooooooooooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy,

by ICanSeeForIslesAndIsles on Nov 2, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

wow, I was going to break down the Isles strength of schedule for October, but this is even better, good work.

Even Thomas Pock can't believe someone thinks he's an NHL talent.
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.

by Mark D on Nov 2, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks

But it wasn’t a lot of work at all, actually. About 30 minutes of my lunch break.

Oh, and that second-to-last column is not really “strength of schedule,” unless you’re only counting the strength of schedule of the games in which the Isles earn at least a point in the standings. A loss is calculated the same way, no matter who they lost to. It’s simply a big fat zero added into the average.

Hmmm.... you hit my goalie's head and it's hockey. I hit your goalie's post and it's a penalty. Oooooooooooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy,

by ICanSeeForIslesAndIsles on Nov 2, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

it wasn’t a lot of work at all, actually. About 30 minutes of my lunch break

Show off.

Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and Schremp and MacDonald were important.

by Dominik on Nov 3, 2010 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, the data entry took longer. I was talking about the table itself. blush

Hmmm.... you hit my goalie's head and it's hockey. I hit your goalie's post and it's a penalty. Oooooooooooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy,

by ICanSeeForIslesAndIsles on Nov 3, 2010 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Carolina and Ottawa Next

So this should mean 2 W’s coming up if this power ranking methodology holds true.

Does Home vs. Away factor in at all to these calculations?

by JPinNYC on Nov 2, 2010 2:31 PM EDT reply actions  

In answer to your first question, it’s a qualified “yes”. The fact is that there isn’t a whole lot of data entered into the system yet, as the season is still young. And injuries – as those of us in this community certainly can attest to – changes things.

Home/Away does not factor in. The assumption here is that, for the most part, every opponent is played an equal number of times at home and on the road over the course of the year (only a few teams from the other conference are the exception, but that’s only a few number of games). So being at home or on the road should even out over time.

If enough people come up with suggestions that seem worth modifying the table, I’ll see what I can do. If enough people think, for example, that home/road is important, and can agree to how much more important a road victory is to a home one, then I can whip up some more calculations based on that.

Hmmm.... you hit my goalie's head and it's hockey. I hit your goalie's post and it's a penalty. Oooooooooooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy,

by ICanSeeForIslesAndIsles on Nov 2, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I looks like so far there is little home ice advantage

I did a quick calculation and unless I added it up wrong it is 177 points at home 174 points on the road.

The kids are more than alright.

by Anarcurt on Nov 2, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some teams have been much better on the road

Like the Rangers. Perhaps getting away from the food poisoning and the rat droppings helps their play.

The kids are more than alright.

by Anarcurt on Nov 2, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I KNEW I forgot something...

The Rangers should be higher due to that handicap. :-)

Hmmm.... you hit my goalie's head and it's hockey. I hit your goalie's post and it's a penalty. Oooooooooooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy,

by ICanSeeForIslesAndIsles on Nov 2, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sabre-metric Hockey

Sorry… I couldn’t make it through that link. The only thing worse than looking through charts and tables to understand how your hockey team is playing is reading a debate about looking through charts and tables to understand how your hockey team is doing.
We’re [mostly] just fans. So, however you want to derive your talking points is fine with me. I don’t mind going to the stats sheet to show how valuable a player can be…. but that’s a little too GMish for me. I’m a “Open the window, rather than turn on the weather channel to see what the weather is right now” kinda guy.’ It doesn’t stop me from checking the Corsi for annomolies once in a while… or checking players stats on other teams for thing to look for in upcoming games.
I love to watch this game becaue I’m too old (and never had the talent) to play it. I enjoy rooting for a guy like doug weight let his incredible instincts take him where his body just can’t get to on its own anymore. Same for Roli… But the young kids as well. When there is a stat for creating a clearing opportunity by taking a crushing hit from a guy that outweighs you by 3 adult sized bowling balls and a tire iron I’ll start reading more into stats.
Hockey still leans more towards football than baseball. In baseball a manager can rely heavily on deep statistical analysis to manage his ball club… watch a little film, study his charges day to day, but anticipate matchups mostly on stats.
In football each position coach pours over days of game film to create strategy, and matchups. It’s HOW, in these sports, where art defies logic. It’s the identification of WEAKNESSES in your opponent that just can’t be seen on 2 dimentional charts. How do you measure what Matt Martin brings to a hockey game. You can record hits, but I promise you a Martin hit is a lot more effective than a Martin St. Louis hit… How much does he lose when he delivers a hit, how much of his opponents tank does he empty… When the metrics tell me that, I’ll start reading more into them.

LIGHTHOUSE HOCKEY: Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free...and we can hook up online and talk about Islander hockey.

by JPinVA on Nov 2, 2010 3:21 PM EDT reply actions  

That's fine by me.

The above table is no more than a means to compare what people’s opinions are regarding who the best team is. And it gives me something to do, which keeps me out of trouble. The rest of Brooklyn, NY thanks LHH to that end. ;-)

What does “sabre-metric” mean?

Hmmm.... you hit my goalie's head and it's hockey. I hit your goalie's post and it's a penalty. Oooooooooooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy,

by ICanSeeForIslesAndIsles on Nov 2, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think he was talking about the Behind the Net link

Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and Schremp and MacDonald were important.

by Dominik on Nov 2, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ah, information overload.

Too much stuff to pour over for one post. :-)

That’s right… got it. Thanks!

Hmmm.... you hit my goalie's head and it's hockey. I hit your goalie's post and it's a penalty. Oooooooooooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy,

by ICanSeeForIslesAndIsles on Nov 2, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, sorry for mixing both in the same post. I was…well obviously I had too much goin’ on in the ol’ Duder’s head last night/today.

Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and Schremp and MacDonald were important.

by Dominik on Nov 2, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

No problem at all. If I was at work, I’d appreciate the extra reading material.

Hmmm.... you hit my goalie's head and it's hockey. I hit your goalie's post and it's a penalty. Oooooooooooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy,

by ICanSeeForIslesAndIsles on Nov 2, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

It means...

I type faster than I think… and I don’t type that fast. Sabermetrics… when I typed in the title I thought I would add some Buffalo stats v performace issues… but got lost in my train of thought.

I actually do like your POWER RANKING talbe. When I was taking my first programming class in college I tried to do something similar using the W/L/PF/PA derivatives in the NFL to beat the vegas lines. It did pretty good but I could never factor in injuries, divisional history and stuff like that… it barely got back the vig on single unit bets. But I do like the premise more than the snapshot,, basically a medium for a bad quip, subjective BS you usually see.

My drivel was more focused towards the BTN link. Sorry.

LIGHTHOUSE HOCKEY: Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free...and we can hook up online and talk about Islander hockey.

by JPinVA on Nov 2, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

No problem...

Dom already set me straight. :-)

And thanks for explaining Sabremetrics. It would’ve driven me insane until… I checked Wikipedia myself. ;-)

Hmmm.... you hit my goalie's head and it's hockey. I hit your goalie's post and it's a penalty. Oooooooooooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy,

by ICanSeeForIslesAndIsles on Nov 2, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks JP

This is good feedback to have. The “only thing worse than looking through charts and tables to understand how your hockey team is playing is reading a debate about looking through charts and tables” bit — I actually share numbness to that.

But I’m curious (and maybe this was way too far down on the post — Gabe even mentions “burying the lede”) — if you are watching your team win (or lose) but suspect they’re play hasn’t deserved it, do you care if anyone looks at some underlying numbers to theorize if you might be on to something?

That’s my main interest in this. I don’t too much care how many wins a player is worth (I figure he’ll only decline or get hurt in an NYI uni anyway), but I do like getting other perspectives on whether his play/team results are masking something disturbing.

Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and Schremp and MacDonald were important.

by Dominik on Nov 2, 2010 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

GVT, Corsi, etc, are monumental advancements in hockey analysis. They’re arguably even more useful in hockey than baseball because at least in baseball traditional stats — like batting average, home runs, etc — tell you at least something useful about individual players and baseball is obviously much more of an individual sport than hockey.

You don’t have to car much about wins over replacement, etc., or how those stats are derived in order to make good use of them. They can be very handy in just an “X is better than Y” sense.

by AP77 on Nov 2, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

They’re arguably even more useful in hockey than baseball because at least in baseball traditional stats — like batting average, home runs, etc — tell you at least something useful about individual players

Really? To me the traditional stats in both sports are pretty similar: They tell you things that happened but are very context dependent. I’d really put GVT in with that as well: More, “this is what has happened, whether by luck or skill or divine intervention” stats rather than “this is how it’s happening and why it’s happening and is probably going to continue.”

Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and Schremp and MacDonald were important.

by Dominik on Nov 2, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like five stats – goals, assists, PIMS, wins and losses, pretty good summary of what is happening. The rest are just trying to interpret the intagibles (+/-. Corsi, Shooting %, etc). However, I do find that stats come in handy when you use just a select few to prove your point.

by Hockey1919 on Nov 2, 2010 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think that traditional stats in hockey are far more influenced by what your teammates are doing than in baseball. So things like +/-, assists (secondary especially), for example, can give you a comparatively distorted view of a player. Not so much with goals, obviously. And I think traditional hockey stats are particularly weak with respect to measuring defenders.

by AP77 on Nov 2, 2010 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wins for pitchers in baseball suffers from the same flaw and that’s why it is essentially a useless statistic.

by AP77 on Nov 2, 2010 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I should add

Secondary assists really bother me. I’m not sure if advanced stats like GVT, etc, severely discount them or not, but I think they should.

by AP77 on Nov 2, 2010 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

My god, secondary assists would be fine if they weren’t handed out like candy. I may sound like an old fart, but I swear they used to not hand them out on every goal; Europe too, used to not even give them (soccer relic maybe?). Now it’s like if you were in the vicinity then blessed are the cheesemakers, they deserve second assists too.

Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and Schremp and MacDonald were important.

by Dominik on Nov 3, 2010 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

The Gretzky Assist is a free point used to pad stats, so I agree. Make that four stats I find useful and the rest used to “measure” intangibles.

by Hockey1919 on Nov 3, 2010 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

not necessarily

The idea behind the secondary assist was worthwhile: a guy who made a great breakout pass; or set up a guy for a golden opportunity that was stopped, and someone else chips in the rebound; or someone who makes a great play at the line to keep the zone, which leads to a goal. But like every other stat ever, it’s not perfect. A lot of times the great breakout pass or pinch will lead to goals, and that guy gets nothing but a +, because three other guys play the puck. That’s where the advanced stuff comes in for me: you get another angle on the overall picture, maybe you see who’s driving play while others are simply piggy-backing.

I knew a guy who ran a house league years ago, I helped with the official stats and scheduling and such, and worked the scoreboard for all the youth leagues. He had a loose system: he said of one kid with a lot of secondaries, “Give him a check when he makes a good play: every time he breaks up a pass or blocks a shot, and an X for every time he loses his guy, misses a pass, or turns it over. I guarantee you he’ll be the worst kid on the rink.”

Admittedly subjective, and I never took him up on it, but at heart it’s a way of mining for more data. A guy with 15 checks and 5 X’s, but few assists, is probably doing a lot right, while a guy at 5-15 with more assists is lucking into things. Broken down into zones, that sort of a system could start to quantify something like offensive and defensive awareness, and hockey sense. It could help a team figure out who’s more effective in different spots on the ice, and design a way to use players more intelligently moving forward.

The league already has people keeping track of takeaways, giveaways, blocked shots, and such. I think that a team would do well to pay some intern to put that “check v. X” system into effect, try to make it as objective as possible, and track it for themselves.

Community Projected to have eleven more posts before blowing out his laptop
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity

by mikb on Nov 4, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

A lot to like there

It’s like finding a formula to define “smart hockey player,” or as I would call it, “Frans Quotient.”

So much is quality of competition too, which is sadly also still hard to define. Smart players make the right plays relative to the needs of the team, so sometimes that just can’t show up on the scoresheet.

Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.

by Dominik on Nov 4, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Frans Quotient!

I like this! Man, we ought to be doing all his marketing. We’ve got Area 51 t-shirts and the Backhand of Judgment and the Frans Quotient.

De Brød Isen!

Community Projected to have eleven more posts before blowing out his laptop
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity

by mikb on Nov 4, 2010 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

The problem is too often the secondary assist is just given to the last guy that touched the puck. I’ve been calling it the Gretzky assist ever since I saw Gretzky dump the puck up the boards and go for a line change. Langevin (of all speed demons) chased down the icing and fired it off the boards trying to catch the line change, Anderson got the puck, took the shot and Simpson scored on Smitty’s rebound. I’m sure Gretzky knew exactly what he was doing or maybe the fact they were playing in Edmonton had an afffect on him getting an assist on the play while sitting on the bench and two Islanders having played the puck before the puck went in the net.

What it comes down to is stats can give you ana indication of the type of player, but scouts need to make an assessment. Baseball is nine individuals making set plays and the defensive team always puts the ball in play so it is easier to measure numbers.

by Hockey1919 on Nov 4, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, that's bogus

In fact, I believe that even if the play is otherwise legit, you aren’t supposed to be awarded a point if you leave the ice. So if I stop the puck on a dump in during a delayed penalty, and leave the rink when my defenseman goes end to end – I do not get an assist on his goal.

Community Projected to have eleven more posts before blowing out his laptop
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity

by mikb on Nov 4, 2010 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can buy all that. I think batting ave. is pretty similarly limited (from what I understand).

And yes, measuring defenders in hockey is a wilderness probably wilder than measuring defense in baseball. Beyond the elite guys, it’s a big nebulous cloud of “some days Bruno/Mottau/Guy X looks like he knows what he’s doing, and some days he looks like he’s high.”

My best theory on that is that defensemen are The Guy all their life until they hurt a certain level that they can no longer be a Pronger, and at that level they are in constant identity crisis. Lot easier for a checking forward to just KISS; when forwards screw up its far less obvious and they have insurance behind them.

Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and Schremp and MacDonald were important.

by Dominik on Nov 3, 2010 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, batting average is a horrible statistic, as things go. OBP is far more predictive as it adheres closer to the three true outcomes (no analog in hockey, obviously).

As for defensemen . . . well, I’ve been a defenseman my whole life and have never been The Guy. So sad.

by AP77 on Nov 3, 2010 3:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

That;s tough for us to decide...

with stats… no matter how deep they run. That’s why teams have advance scouts. I’m sure those guys make notes that say, “RW is wasting away in the 1-2-1. This kid shows bursts of speed, and should be watched if he ever hits the waiver wire or UFA status”
“Goalie is positionally sound, slow glove hand, weak lateral recovery… but the chicks dig him”
“Excellent puck moving defenseman, needs shadow on forecheck… shoots the puck like a girl”
“Third line center is the best positional player I’ve ever seen. He’s never out of place, has speed to recover, takes precise and economic angles, has a whicked backhand and knows the ancient secret slash the ankles during a face-off technique”
I’m guessing GM’s are looking over notes on the side of their coaches scout sheets more than the corsi on a player. We, unfortunately don’t get Vic Yustubee’s reports on a weekly basis… so the advanced stats can give us somehting to talk about on a regular basis.
I’m not against them, I just feel that watching the games is the best barometer.

LIGHTHOUSE HOCKEY: Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free...and we can hook up online and talk about Islander hockey.

by JPinVA on Nov 2, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m guessing GM’s are looking over notes on the side of their coaches scout sheets more than the corsi on a player.

I actually would guess teams have much, much more advanced stats they keep to themselves. If Corsi started being tracked by the Sabres in the 70s, and we only got access to it in 2007…

My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most unpredictable team in the NHL.

by red army line on Nov 3, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

yup

plus-minus was originally a Montreal Canadiens invention. Word got out and the league adopted it officially.

Community Projected to have eleven more posts before blowing out his laptop
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity

by mikb on Nov 4, 2010 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Quick News Break

Looks Like Tambi is an AHLer again.

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=339614

The kids are more than alright.

by Anarcurt on Nov 2, 2010 3:40 PM EDT reply actions  

2 goals 1 assist every 6 games

… makes him a ~27 goal scorer with 14 or so assists. That’s not terrible, is it? Hmm….

Hmmm.... you hit my goalie's head and it's hockey. I hit your goalie's post and it's a penalty. Oooooooooooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy,

by ICanSeeForIslesAndIsles on Nov 2, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sounds like he was just filling in on the scoring line(s) until their better forwards came back.

Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and Schremp and MacDonald were important.

by Dominik on Nov 2, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not terrible if it were a repeatable pattern and not 2 goals 1 assist for six, then nothing for 12 then 2 goals and 1 assist the next six. Although he would still have a dozen uncracked eggs after 24 games.

by Hockey1919 on Nov 2, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also playing on an incredible line

How much was him and how much was it the people he was with? Do we have a Corsi????

The kids are more than alright.

by Anarcurt on Nov 2, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh man

Nice work on this new chart, IslesandIsles…. reminds me a little of ELO rankings, such as the FIDE uses to rank chessplayers.

Between Real Standings and Real Power Rankings, our own little bubble universe is developing nicely! And I shall call our new world – Mom’s Basement! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Take that, Scott Burnside!

Community Projected to have eleven more posts before blowing out his laptop
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity

by mikb on Nov 2, 2010 5:06 PM EDT reply actions  

Right back at you, Sir!

If we get one more guy to do something similar, we could be like the geeks that helped out Scully and Mulder on the X-Files. I think they were called the Lone Gunmen.

Was it Burnside who wrote that?

Hmmm.... you hit my goalie's head and it's hockey. I hit your goalie's post and it's a penalty. Oooooooooooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy,

by ICanSeeForIslesAndIsles on Nov 2, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s not about treating players like unchanging autobots with finite values (although there are interesting attempts to peg a “wins” or “money” value to each player).

That’s what baseball is for!

Even Thomas Pock can't believe someone thinks he's an NHL talent.
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.

by Mark D on Nov 2, 2010 5:54 PM EDT reply actions  

good work

One of the things that makes hockey unique is the difference that offensive vs defense in a game varies with baseball. Most defensive plays in BB by a pro team in the field are routine and are expected., in fact an error is recorded when a defensive player does not make a routine out. On the other hand Offense and defense are played by all hockey players regardless of their designation as F or D. Of course the Goalie has no equivalent in Baseball. There are similarities with batting averages rbis etc but the point is that statistics count but can be misleading in both sports. Although I’m a hockey guy baseball has appeals namely that size is much less important and most of all there is no time limit and coming back with a big inning is a lot easier than being way down in goals.

by altosax on Nov 2, 2010 6:47 PM EDT reply actions  

What I love about hockey is its ever-flowing and overlapping chaos. Even the best attempts to evaluate everything will, I think, fall way short of baseball and its isolated one-on-one battles while the other 40 players in attendance scratch their crotch.

Actually, what I love about hockey would break the Internet. There are too many things…

Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and Schremp and MacDonald were important.

by Dominik on Nov 3, 2010 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

TSN was very generous

While CBS Sports and it’s AP writers seem to grasp the truth despite whatever we wish was true.

Get out of the sticks, Charles, move to Queens!! Come, Get some respect a Professional team deserves!!

by Martys301 on Nov 2, 2010 9:58 PM EDT reply actions  

2nded

Go isles or Go home.

by OzzyFan on Nov 2, 2010 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

But kidding aside

I’m going to look at this. Closely. Promise.

by Nova Scotia Isles Fan on Nov 3, 2010 3:03 PM EDT reply actions  

If you want to look at it REALLY close...

… I’m sure I can get a copy of the spread sheet to you or anyone else who wants it. It’s hardly an original idea, and there isn’t much to hide.

Hmmm.... you hit my goalie's head and it's hockey. I hit your goalie's post and it's a penalty. Oooooooooooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy,

by ICanSeeForIslesAndIsles on Nov 3, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting note on an ex-Islander's ex-team's fans

Raffi Torres had a Hat Trick for the ’Nucks against the Oilers last night and the Oiler fans gave him a Standing O and tossed hats on the ice.

Would we do the same, I wonder?

by Nova Scotia Isles Fan on Nov 3, 2010 3:05 PM EDT reply actions  

another factor

There’s been so little to cheer for in Edmonton lately, they take what they can get!

Community Projected to have eleven more posts before blowing out his laptop
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity

by mikb on Nov 4, 2010 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

A New York Islanders blog for fans near and far. Hip and shoulder surgery not required.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Jt_small
The New York Islanders and The Rebuild
Small
The Angstlander -- Inside the mind of an anxious Islanders fan (that means you!)
Tubby_goalie_gif_small
Is Garth Snow actually drafting well, or are we all just pr*j*ct*ng again?

Recent FanPosts

Gigantor15_small
LHH Poster's 25U25 Consensus
Small
Now that Phoenix has found itself a new owner...
Small
Is It Hockey Or Rugby? - The Scrum in The Crease
Josh_bailey_small
#I'dTradeDPfor
Small
"Coulda, Shoulda, Woulda"
Small
Early predictions for 2012/2013
Small
Is It Time For NHL Expansion Into Canada? [Reader Poll]

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Featured Poll

Poll
What else is Russian sports media telling us?

  76 votes | Results

Isles Reading

Islanders Schedule

1979-80


May 24, 1980: Tonelli to Nystrom. At long last, the steady build of the New York Islanders from expansion doormat to surprise semifinalist to annual contender reaches the promised land: Buoyed by a late season trade for Butch Goring that gave the team the depth up the middle GM Bill Torrey had been seeking, the Islanders knock off the Philadelphia Flyers in six games.

The victory justified the faith in coach Al Arbour who guided them from their second season to their first Stanley Cup seven seasons later. The Islanders would not be the first expansion team to win the Stanley Cup, but they would be the only one capable of a dynasty.

1980-81


May 21, 1981: This time it was much easier. After falling to "only" 91 points in the 1979-80 season, the Islanders returned to their division title tradition, piling up 110 points -- a whole 13 points over second-place Philadelphia.

Between the quarterfinals (where they beat the upstart Oilers in six games) and the finals, the Islanders reeled off eight consecutive wins -- with a four-game sweep of archrival Rangers in between. As they defeated the Minnesota North Stars in five games for their second Cup, their goal difference in the final was a combined +10.

1981-82


May 16, 1982: Another year, another landslide title. The Islanders won the Patrick Division by a whopping 26 points over the second-place Rangers, and were seven points clear of their nearest competition for the President's Trophy, the still-not-quite-ripe Edmonton Oilers.

A first-round scare against the Pittsburgh Penguins turned in the Isles' favor thanks to John Tonelli's heroics, and a true dynasty was on its way: Past the Rangers in six games, then an eight-game sweep of the Quebec Nordiques and Vancouver Canucks to run away with the Stanley Cup.

1982-83


May 17, 1983: Not so fast, whipper-snappers. The Edmonton Oilers' steadily rising challenge for league supremacy took them all the way to the finals for the first time, where the New York Islanders summarily dispatched them in a four-game sweep. For the Islanders, the Dynasty was secured. For the Oilers, it was a powerful lesson in where talent ends and the demands of playoff hockey begin.

Four years, four Cups, 16 consecutive playoff series wins (a record that would grow to 19 until the rematch with the Oilers the following year). Mike Bossy scored 60 goals yet again, and Wayne Gretzky became acquainted with Billy Smith's crease.


Blog Bossy

Lhh-square_small Dominik

Enforcers & Snipers

Warlord2_small Mark D

Lighthouse_hockey_logo_2_medium_small Keith Quinn

Tubby_goalie_gif_small mikb

Hg_small Chris McNally

Master of FIGs and Power Tablature

Icon3_small ICanSeeForIslesAndIsles

Emeriti

Officials_sweater_1_small IslesOfficial

Headshot_small Michael Schuerlein

71096_479208120482_1257968_n_small David Hanssen