Do the Islanders Need to Shed a Culture of Losing?
by Mark D on Nov 19, 2010 6:30 AM EST
in Big Picture Musings
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PrintThe firing of Scott Gordon has brought about a wide spectrum of views from Islander fans. Usually when a coach is fired it seems to be a relatively popular decision with the fans. For a lot of people though, the problem was never with Gordon. So it's tough to find where the problem is in the organization. You can't fire Garth Snow or see this as a sign that Snow threw Gordon under the bus. Snow's drafts are considered very good around the league and by a lot of commentators. You can't fault his free agency moves either: although he hasn't landed a huge name, his signings have been low cost and high reward.
Instead, the problem with the Islanders might be deeper and go further back than that. Since that June afternoon in 1994 that Al Arbour announced he was retiring once and for all, the Islanders have seemingly cultivated a losing culture. From owners who cared more about the bottom line, to GMs allowed to run roughshod over the roster with little oversight, to the deprecation of team legends [Note: This has nothing to do with Trottier over the summer, and more to do with Islanders legends being trotted out to sell tickets in the late '90s], it's been a volatile combination which probably hasn't been seen before in one franchise over a near 20-year period.
Quite often I use football references, and I believe this is one of those times where it fits perfectly. Bill Parcells keeps going from team to team bringing success to each one. Since his storied stint as head coach of the Giants, he has twice taken over teams with a 1-15 record and led them to over .500 seasons the following year. It's because when Parcells comes in, he changes the culture of the team.
For the Islanders, somewhere in the organization something has to change. If you think the Gordon firing is going to light a fire under these guys, the reverse can also be argued. If Gordon was truly the problem, the Islanders' unwillingness to actually sack Gordon and instead keep him around in whatever "special assistant" role he might wind up in shows that no one has to be responsible. Instead of some of the young guys coming into the building and seeing "Wow, Coach Gordon is really gone and maybe it's our fault," they are going to still see him around and working for whatever capacity the Islanders dream up.
It's not just Gordon's firing or promotion or whatever it ends up being until the contract runs out. Again and again failures in the Islanders organization are kept around. The most blatant and disheartening of them all was that even after he was finally removed as GM, Mike Milbury continued to work with the Islanders (or Wang's sports organization, as he owned the Dragons at the time), proving even the biggest unmitigated failure in Islanders history still had a comfy spot with the team.
Sometimes when I hear about Wang and Milbury jovially talking during Islanders games with the Bruins, it angers me. If Wang is really upset about the amount of money he lost with the team, the reason for losing that money is right there, sharing a laugh with him.
When Loyalty Backfires?
If in the end stuff like Gordon, Milbury and Dunham among others sticking around is a sign of Wang's or Snow's loyalty, then it's a good sign but it might not be sending the right message. You can even see it in a guy like Blake Comeau who seems to magically be able to turn it on in March and April when his job might be on the line. The team seemingly does not fear the consequences, as the organization has shown a complete inability to threaten players. It might be a thin line between keeping around prospects too long and going to the media and saying the player is sniffing glue, but somewhere in that gray area the Islanders have to show that players have to produce or move on.
It's not just about talent either, but winners. Parcells was infamous for bringing a group of veterans and coaches with him from team to team. Guys that knew how to win and had something that was more important than just talent when it came to winning. In the same vein, Steve Yzerman not only had a winning career as a player with a great organization, but also joined that organization and helped to continue and cultivate that culture. It was a no-lose situation in Tampa to bring in Stevie Y, being that even if he fails on the talent side he might plant the changes to make the team winners.
At the same time, when you look at the choices the Islanders have made over the last 20 years, there seems to be a lack of winners. From retreads like Rich Bowness who had failed hugely in both his previous stops, to Steve Stirling who didn't exactly have a huge AHL record, the Islanders have never brought in someone with a long time history of winning. This isn't about just coaches either; there was nothing in Neil Smith's history to show that he would have worked out on Long Island.
Even Snow doesn't escape this criticism. The franchises he was a part of as a player don't exactly serve as good examples: His time with the mid-'90s Flyers, during which Bob Clarke decided to fight with his superstar player in the press. Or his time with the late '90s Canucks, during which Mike Keenan allowed Mark Messier to do everything possible to anger Vancouver fans. Or his time with the Mike Milbury Islanders, during which the Islanders were run by Mike Milbury.
I don't want to see Capuano or Snow ousted. I want the Islanders to bring in a coach that is going to fit in with the overall idea of the rebuild. But it might not be a bad time to maybe bring in a legendary name, even if it's just a figurehead "culture changing" position. Or someone that can work with the organization and point out what's not working. I think it's lurking out there in all our fears that whatever is wrong might be bigger then we think.
The Islanders tried this offseason to bring in guys who were winners. Mark Eaton and Mike Mottau both came from successful franchises, Eaton was even part of a recent Cup winner. But they don't seem to have the same drive, or to be the type of players who can be described as game-changing winners. They were simply spare parts who needed to be replaced for both teams to improve.
They even seem to lack the same desperation with which guys like James Wisniewski, P.A. Parenteau and Matt Martin are playing the game. All three guys are desperate to prove their worth in the NHL, while Eaton and Mottau both seem to take it as a given that they are NHL players. Doug Weight was once that type of player, but it's obvious he can no longer do it by himself anymore.
Connecting with Winning Culture in their History
The disconnect with the history of the Islanders also seems to be a problem. This of course isn't just on the Islanders, as the NHL has decided to ignore the aberration that came between the Montreal Dynasty and Edmonton Dynasty. Even so, the Islanders themselves seem to do very little in the way of promoting the past of the team. The Islanders Youtube channel has a huge collection of videos. It should surprise no one that two of the top six videos involve large amounts of the past, a Mike Bossy tribute video and the 06-07 Tradition video. The 06-07 Tradition video will send chills down your spine, and it's obvious that it's something that needs to be done again and more often.
Players say the right things about the past when they sign with the team. But then again we aren't in the Kirk Muller and Brendan Shanahan era in which players will flat out sit out rather than play on a bad team. Sure. the players say everything right about the Island, but you have to wonder if it is anything more then lip service. That the players too have a disconnect from the history of the Islanders. That they can't hear the echoes of what used to be inside the arena. The banners fly above the ice, but they cast no shadow on the current players. Even when a Toronto team is bad, players always sound excited to go there and be a part of that history. Even Europeans seem to have an understanding of what it means to play in Toronto or Montreal.
It should come as no surprise then that multiple times in the last 20 years the Islanders have done radical changes to their Jersey. The first change to the Fisherman logo was so hated by fans that the team attempted to change back to the original logo only a year later. Even Buffalo's hideous Buffaslug had a longer lifetime. The many retouches to what is a classic jersey are insulting to every fan and everyone that's been an Islander. Even now there are rumors that the Islanders are gearing up for a new 3rd Jersey.
The Islanders are going to have to do something different to get themselves out of this rut in the long term. The reason the Gordon firing doesn't feel right (even if you wanted Gordon replaced with someone from the coaching carousel) is that the problem doesn't begin and end at the Coach. For the Islanders to take the next step forward in the rebuilding process they are going to have to take a deep internal organizational look and find out where there have been failures. The Culture of Losing now runs deep within the Islanders, because it's been around so long: With no playoff series wins since 1993, they may be one of the worst franchises of any sport in the last two decades.
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a new coach definately has to be able to beat the recent culture of losing
I agree, and think this should be obvious to Snow and Wang. would Wang bring in a CEO into his company that had never been successful somewhere else. would he take a shot on one of the guy Trump fires in teh 1st month of the Apprentice, or would he rather have someone who made it to thefinal and won
a hockey team is a business, and you have to bring in winners, youth is great, but a true winner needs some veteran winners around. Weight hasn’t won in a long time, and I liek him but is he whatthe team needs.
That is why I wanted to go after John Madden, he won withteh Devils and in his 1st year won with the Black Hawks
who can he turn to as a coach…I don’t see anyone even mentioned in any articles that they are looking at, so lets keep our fingers crossed that somehow Capuano has what it takes
Any task BIG or small, Do it well or not at all
I’m hoping for Capuano, he seems like a good guy all around.
I think the problem is that the guys who are currently out there just aren’t that good. So let the season run with Capuano and hope that he gets it done or that some of the better guys drop off.
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Cheap owners hiring friends as GM's creates the culture of losing - has to end
Walsh and Greenwood only hired Maloney because he worked in their financial firm. No other reason. Certainly not because he was hockey qualified. Wang kept Milbury because they were friends. Wang hired Snow because he was friendly with him and comfortable. None of these were based on competent successfull experienced people but rather friendship.
It’s no coincidence that the 1 season Wang spent a decent amount of money on Peca,Osgood, Yashin that NYI went to Game 7 in the playoffs and might have won except for injuries. Since free agency in the early 90’s, if a team doesn’t spend they won’t win. (except for perennial losers like NYR and Toronto that are the exception) NYI has spent decent money once in 15 years.
Connecting with past winning history means little. The past is the past and it’s a new era and the dictated style of game changes every few years it seems.
The biggest need is for Wang to hire a President to oversee hockey ops instead of just incompetent GM’s he’s friendly with. Until this happens, nothing will change and the culture of losing will continue.
This isn’t rocket science but just incompetent neglect for 15 years.
The biggest need is for Wang to hire a President to oversee hockey ops instead of just incompetent GM’s he’s friendly with. Until this happens, nothing will change and the culture of losing will continue.
I don’t think Snow is incompetent, but agree that they need someone to come in and take over a position like that.
Go to HockeyDB’s listing of teams draft history and try to find a team that is getting it done with players drafted from 2006 and beyond. The Islanders are probably the only team in the league with this many players from 2006 and later (Okposo, Bailey, Tavares, MacDonald). Most teams have a good amount of players from the 2000-2005 draft on their team, or have traded those players for other pieces. The Islanders have almost nothing from those same drafts.
When we say that the cupboard was bare when Snow took over, it really was. The Islanders probably have the worst draft history of any team in a 5 year period. Snows doing it the right way now, but you are only just now starting to see those draft picks from 06 and 07 making Bridgeport and the AHL
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
the 1 season Wang spent a decent amount of money on Peca,Osgood, Yashin that NYI went to Game 7 in the playoffs and might have won except for injuries.
1 season? Maybe you meant 1st season… because the Isles spent just as much money the next couple of seasons but won only 2 more playoff games.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Nov 19, 2010 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
Well done Web!
Interesting thing though is that with our young players, there really should not be a culture of losing (most if not all coming from championship caliber junior teams) and the vets we have as you noted come from successful franchises with playoff caliber teams.
I think that because these players are mostly young, management has given them a bit of a get out of jail/minimal accountability card (with good reason) and that this year’s “playoffs, no excuses” thing was an attempt to make that jump in culture. However, yes, this team has a history of losing, so it comes as no surpprise to the fans and media when it doesn’t happen, and therefore additional chances happen. That’s probably reason number one that replacing SG with Capuano is a bad plan…I think your right, you need to get a guy in here that will make a couple of tough decisions and really send a message while still being able to recognize that the dogs are still puppies…gotta shake this cycle of learned helplessness!
Sarcasm experience enhanced by Samsung (TM)
by Keith Quinn on Nov 19, 2010 8:08 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Thanks. Obviously I don’t want to see the McCabe and Bertuzzi for Linden trade repeated, but I think right about now anyone can predict that Comeau might not be on this team next year. Trade him, send a message and hopefully get something decent back.
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
I’m confused. first you say
" …to the deprecation of team legends [Note: This has nothing to do with Trottier over the summer, and more to do with Islanders legends being trotted out to sell tickets in the late ’90s],"
then you say
“Even so, the Islanders themselves seem to do very little in the way of promoting the past of the team.”
which is it?
and at what point do you keep praising the old players (which they should be praised) to the point where that’s all that people think there is?
I remember a few of the Legends in the late 90s refusing to have anything to do with the Club. The owners would beg and plead because having Clark Gillies night for example would mean a sellout crowd. Butchie had a good coaching record before he got hired, but it’s believed one of the reasons he was hired was to get people to show up for an awful team.
When you have a team that historically is one of the greats, connecting the current players to that history is a way to get them to play with pride. It’s not just about the legendary players who have played for the team, but everything the team has accomplished. When you play with the logo, play with the jersey, even the goal horn, there’s something of that mystique that gets lost. If you watch that tradition video I linked to, that’s something easy you can do that doesn’t take a lot of work.
The disconnect takes place when players talk about the history of the Islanders, but seem to just be paying lip service to the past. And it’s all part of one of the problems of the organization. If the Islanders and Maple Leafs are both awful, why does it seem that players are so much more excited to be a part of the Maple Leafs
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
i’ll separate these 2 posts out for simplicity…
“It should come as no surprise then that multiple times in the last 20 years the Islanders have done radical changes to their Jersey. The first change to the Fisherman logo was so hated by fans that the team attempted to change back to the original logo only a year later. Even Buffalo’s hideous Buffaslug had a longer lifetime. The many retouches to what is a classic jersey are insulting to every fan and everyone that’s been an Islander. Even now there are rumors that the Islanders are gearing up for a new 3rd Jersey.”
the fishsticks was the only “radical” change and only “insult”. adding piping to the edges, or other minor design changes are not radical/insulting when you keep the true logo.
the fact of the matter is that they changed the jersey to increase sales. like you said about hiring a better coach/GM, it’s a business. changing a jersey every few years gets you added revenue to run the business. adding a third jersey gets you added revenue. you can say “well, MTL and TOR don’t do it” – they also live in what are basically one-sport cities where the majority of people support the team, and you know the regular jersey will sell regardless. even the Cowboys and Yankees change their jerseys every few years.
when have the yankees and cowboys (but more yankees) changed their jerseys?
a profound return... i still love sammy octoberfest :-)
i was in the Post Office a year or two ago, and they always have those spots collage things for sale – one had every different version of the yankees jersey – there must have been about 10-15 different versions of the jersey. most were minor changes, but it did change. from the font on the lettering to the style of pinstriping, etc
the cowboys went from the traditional jersey to the one with a star on each shoulder in the 90s, then back to the more traditional look.
i used these teams because they were the first “legacy” teams i could think of.
well, football, EVERY team has 3 official jerseys now… but the yanks, thanks to wiki,
The home uniform has been the same (apart from minor changes) since 1936 — longer than any current uniform design in Major League Baseball…
Although the Yankees have worn the same road uniform since 1918 (with the exception of 1927 to 1930, when the arched “NEW YORK” was replaced by the word “YANKEES”) then in 1974 The Yankees did, however, make some minor updates to the road uniforms that season, including adding striping patterns to the sleeves and a white outline to the jersey numbers and the “NEW YORK” arch. This has remained since.
a profound return... i still love sammy octoberfest :-)
Okay, maybe a 3rd jersey isn’t the end of the world. But there’s something for a player when your putting on the same jersey design (more or less) when the Islanders were winning Cups then pulling a RBK Edge jersey over their head.
I mention Parcells and in his first or second season he changed the Jets uniforms back to the Joe Nammath ones. He said “That logo is nothing but a losers logo and uniform, this uniform/logo is one that’s a winner” and I think there was something to that.
Teams can trot out other uniforms for a game, or even the pink uniforms for a good cause, just don’t change what works.
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Great article, thank you!
Are you saying the current uniforms are an insult? I like them, and I’m glad they went back to a more traditional, classic look.
Thanks, and I forgot that these current jerseys are technically RBK Edge. I was thinking of the RBK Edge 3rd Jerseys between 02-07.
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
I like third Jerseys
Besides, as long as the Islanders wear the classic away and home jerseys most of the time they can throw in a cool third jersey.
All Who Oppose Grabner Shall Perish.
just one caveat
PLEASE no traffic cones. And I say that as an owner of the traffic cone jersey.
Community Projected to have eleven more posts before blowing out his laptop
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
nice article webby
made for a good read on the train (only 2 more weeks till they call me ‘wheels’ again)
the thing that stings is the fact that for years all we hear about is how much CW cares about hockey and this team, and for years he’s watched it sink lower and lower
1 thing you should have pointed out was the crowd last game, 8025 announced,
is a good indicator that unless they start making strides, the fans aren’t going to be blind sheep to be herded to the arena and shaved of their cash – and that’s the biggest way to get an owners attention (i also think they had like 19$ tix too, ouch)
a profound return... i still love sammy octoberfest :-)
The crowd is more an issue right now of a recession mixed with a bad team and the higher ticket prices. Oh and the inability to actually get out the word of the cheap tickets when you do have those sales.
I think CW cares about this team, he lost a lot of money trusting Milbury. I guess we’ll really find out as some of these guys start becoming RFAs, or Moulson this summer if he continues his strong play. Moulson should be signable, I think he understands that the Islanders were the ONLY team offering him first line minutes last year. But the Islanders just can’t abuse that point.
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Gordon wasn't THE problem
but he was part of it. That system he employed was a disaster. All it did was offer 3-1, 2-1, and 3-2 rushes the other way. You do that and you are going to lose a whole hell fuck of a lot more than you are going to win. If those rushes don’t come the length of the ice they happen around the net.
Disaster!!!
Gordon may have done other things really well in terms of getting younger players on their way or getting an effort (lets face it. Even that went by the wayside this season).
This organization has failed massivley in the way they’ve addressed the D. We are in “year three” of this rebuild. Where is the stud Defensemen that’s supposed to lead this team? I wouldn’t count Mark Streit in that category cause he’s just a spare part. I’m talking about the guy you draft and stays with the team for 8 years or so.
Matter of fact…..find me one young defensemen that this team has groomed? Andrew Macdonald is the only one on the list and played only 56 games going into his third season. And he’s really just a mid level defensemen.
Last year most of us cited the fact that this team really has not begun to transition their D corp. They really haven’t seriously started addressing it this season either.
It’s fair to say that Gordon didn’t have the horses. You can cite the D corp and make a solid case. What Gordon really failed at was making adjustments. This losing streak coupled with Gordons litany of 6 game losing streaks as coach of this team is indicative of that. You can be a bad team but it’s hard to find many teams in this league that are as bad or worse with losing streaks like the Islanders have had under Gordon.
Coaches get fired in this league. It’s part of the game. Cup winning coaches, coach of the year winning coaches to guys like Gordon. It’s part of the game. Guys like Arbour are an absolute rarity. As are guys like Ruff in Buffalo who has overstayed his welcome.
As far as a guy who can change the culture here. Look no further than the color man on your TV screen. My money is on Goring getting another go round behind the bench. He had a shitty team during his last tenure as coach. As thing and pared down as the roster was he let em know beyond a shadow of a doubt who the boss was. You didn’t get playing time cause you had a big fucking gold star on your forhead.
I think Goring is happy working behind the camera and not behind the bench. He also hasn’t been a coach in five years.
They need to bring in someone like a Bowman type, someone with a fistfull of rings that might not be behind the bench but can help change the organization.
The Dmen are coming, it’s why nearly this whole D Corp is on the last year of it’s contract. Hamonic, De Haan should be the stud Dmen of the future.
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Bowman?
Think of the children. They are so sensitive…
I would like a tough coach to send a message to the players, as long as it doesn’t send them into shock and create another situation where the players are blaming the coach for their problems.
All Who Oppose Grabner Shall Perish.
We are in "year three" of this rebuild. Where is the stud Defensemen that’s supposed to lead this team? I wouldn’t count Mark Streit in that category cause he’s just a spare part. I’m talking about the guy you draft and stays with the team for 8 years or so.
How many teams are able to land a stud, better-than-Streit D in the draft who will be with them for a long time in any 2-plus year window though? Those are hard to find, period. Guess they could have taken Hedman (but then no JT) or Fowler (and no Nino), but to me that’s the hardest piece to acquire.
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.
My wish was either Hedman or Fowler, but judging by the lack of scoring they may need to keep drafting forwards until they develop some depth. Too bad I believe you’re better off building from the back and center out, but I keep getting the feeling that you can’t generate any offensive if you can’t move the puck out of your own zone.
Yeah, it’s very chicken-or-egg. With TBL in town I was thinking, “Man, how much more frustrated would fans be if we were waiting for a big D man to develop in front of us and we didn’t even have Tavares?”
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.
a fair point
This organization has failed massivley in the way they’ve addressed the D. We are in "year three" of this rebuild. Where is the stud Defensemen that’s supposed to lead this team? I wouldn’t count Mark Streit in that category cause he’s just a spare part. I’m talking about the guy you draft and stays with the team for 8 years or so.
hamonic is playing well(statistically speaking-never watched the games tho), 2-4-6 in 16 games at the bridge, PP minutes, and only a minus 3
for a team that sim leads in scoring, and has an overall team =/- of -78 (also, 5 fights)
CdH is a ppg guy in junior, a plus 7 (and his points are generally PP points)
next year those 2 should be on the team, (for better or worse), puck moving CdH and Hamonic, who was drafted as a Defensive Defender mind you but is showing a lot more offensive ability then many scouts gave him credit for, give me a little hope that if we get Wizzer to come back, we can have a team D that can be top 10 in scoring in the league
matt donovan is having a great year at Denver so far, 3-5-8 in 12 games with a +7 including a short handed goal. but granted he’s still 2-3 years away from LI probably
a profound return... i still love sammy octoberfest :-)
Donovan is 2nd year
If he stays the full 4 you can expect him to get a full look at 2013 camp. D-Men develop slower (typically) so the extra years can do some good. Hockeysfuture’s biggest complaint was that he needed to get faster but watching him go end to end against North Dakota it seemed he had all the speed one could ask for. I hope he continues to develop well. Now we just need someone big and there are a few we could grab in the 2011 draft.
There is a lighthouse at the end of the tunnel.
for me, right or wrong, i always think 50/50 on full 4 for most college guys, sometimes a nice int. tourny and a good camp makes you think twice about finishing out school
a profound return... i still love sammy octoberfest :-)
Until the guy leaves I assume he will be staying
You have guys like Anders Lee who have already stated that they intend to graduate. That can always change but until they are here you have to plan without them. The NCAA rules don’t really make it easy to get a look at a guy (before he officially goes pro) either.
There is a lighthouse at the end of the tunnel.
This isn't D-related but college-related
Day at Colgate is a senior, a power forward, and by some accounts is playing “a pro game” with his body more filled out now. Wonder if we’ll see him at some point next year.
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.
another boston boy… and you WONDER – IF – we’ll see him??…
a profound return... i still love sammy octoberfest :-)
side note, capuano’s accent made me want to puke, i want to here a little Minny, or some barely understandable deep canadian accent please
just so tired of the boston pops
a profound return... i still love sammy octoberfest :-)
Threat to players
You would think players would be motivated to play for the Islanders since if you can’t make the roster of a bottom 5 team who in the NHL would want you, but it seems more like a promotion to be released by the Isles. Cast offs from the Isles going all the way back to Goddard and Asham seem to find new life someplace else. Thompson and Bergenheim don’t seem to be too upset. Even Tambellini got promoted to playing with the Sedins, he’s just not ever going to be more than an AHLer.
The shitty situation on the Island seems to give everyone on the team the dysfunctional pass. There is a built in second chance since everyone assumes that no one can succeed on the Island. I’m getting the same impression with Gordon, decent coach, but now it seems like he wasn’t even part of the problem. That’s a 10 game losing streak with one loser point and you would think he had no hand in how badly the tream played on most nights. The team was looking like the Glen Hanlon Caps.
Cast offs from the Isles going all the way back to Goddard and Asham seem to find new life someplace else. Thompson and Bergenheim don’t seem to be too upset. Even Tambellini got promoted to playing with the Sedins, he’s just not ever going to be more than an AHLer.
That’s an interesting point…maybe points to the issue that the Isles have a bunch of supporting players but not the high-end talent to carry them? And acquiring/developing some high-end talent is what the rebuild is about?
I think that’s part of it. I mean the breaking point for Snow seemed to be when he even got Smyth (who’s no dominant game-breaker but still a significant piece) in for a quarter-season audition and still couldn’t get him to sign, so he had to resort to signing “top” guys like Guerin and Comrie. In that context, at least from where Snow sits, what he’s doing is probably the only long-term viable method. (i.e. We need high-end talent. We’re not getting it via F.A. It’s not coming via trade unless there is baggage attached, etc.)
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.
we had high end talent on the doorstep, we offered a lot of $, but i’m sure we never offered the 2 year max contract offer that would have sealed the deal
a profound return... i still love sammy octoberfest :-)
I don’t know though. If an annual contender (PIT, VAN, NJ?) offers you 5 years at $5-6M per (so $25-30 total + security), does 2 years at $8M per ($16 total + job hunting in 2 years) from the Isles sway you? (And that’s breaking the bank with a poor precedent for the Isles, I think, but just for argument’s sake.)
There is a line between looking desperate, establishing that you will blow all conventional salary scale out of the water, and getting guys who want to build with you.
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.
it would have been 2 at $10-11M though to get him, and if he and JT put up 40+ goals each as linemates, then he gets traded to a contender at the deadline of the 2nd year and we all get angry, lol
a profound return... i still love sammy octoberfest :-)
Who, Kovlachuk? Sorry, didn’t realize we were talking about Kovalchuk. I wonder if such an offer would have been signed by his camp. Based on descriptions over the years in Atlanta and this summer, I have my doubts.
(I’ll leave aside that I don’t think he would be worth it. Good enough to reorient the entire focus of a team; not good enough to make that reorientation pay off.)
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.
no prob, i was all over the place in my head anyway, lol
part of the reason he stayed in nj was the market, our market is comparable, if not better, — correction — used to be better and likely could be back to being better as the team improves
tack on maxing him out, which no one else was going to come close too, you have hype, you have a desperately needed goal scorer to lean on, who’s a VETERAN LW, at 2 years you grossly overpay, but then you are free quickly, as is he, when the team has a bunch of young talent to re-up…
the fact that he can actually carry a puck into the offensive zone by himself would be so strange to see in an islanders uniform… every so often i still close my eyes and see that chubby little Slovak carry it in and turn and rag the puck along the boards, waiting for the trailer to come thru open ice…
a profound return... i still love sammy octoberfest :-)
LA’s not exactly chopped meat.
I don’t think Kovy ever intended to sign elsewhere, but his whole issue with making more then Ovie is what kept him from signing in Jersey
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
LA’s a fine market, but they were never going to pay him what he wanted, the dev’s had the best combo of both, plus he’s right near the airport!
a profound return... i still love sammy octoberfest :-)
Who ever said that Kovulchuk was even entertaining the notion of a 2 year deal with the Isles?
From the get-go he wanted the long term deal. If he signed the 2 year deal he actually would’ve had to play hard to earn his next contract. He wanted the long term deal for the same reason Yashin did, so he could coast and not really have to put forth much effort because his contract was set in stone.
At this point I would gladly accept Yashin back with the Isles. Given all his faults he did know how to score and in the 5 years he played for us we made the playoffs in 4 of the 5 years.
The New York Islanders....they make opposing goalies look gooooood.
Yes we made the playoffs
But look at the cost to the Isles. We basically handed the Senators their Stanley Cup run.
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
I agree no way Kovalchuk came to the Island. Let’s not be delusional. The Islanders are trying to follow the Cap, Hawk, and Pens model, but the Caps had Backstrom and Ovechkin, Hawks Kane and Toews, Pens Crosby and Malkin. The Islanders have not had the same luck in the draft class as those teams so it’ll take longer and a lot more trips to the draft well.
delusional would be turning down 11.88M per year for 2 years
- more of my point is that we never made the offer, he said they called his agent to make the fans think something was up when it never ever was…
as good as tavares may become, generational studs don’t show up as the #1 pick every year, hell, the media STILL isn’t comfy putting Stamkos in the conversation… not to mention the league handed Pitt a free #1 pick to nab Sid…
a profound return... i still love sammy octoberfest :-)
supporting players
that is interesting, and probably true
I wonder how JT would fair playing along side St Louis and/or Lecavilier. Stamkos definately had better studs to play along side him, and the whole team is benefitiing now.
wow what a night he had yesterday 3G2A
Any task BIG or small, Do it well or not at all
by Rickfansince76 on Nov 19, 2010 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
JT can be just as good
The cast around him…..not even close. NO Okposo? what is JT supposed to do. And with Jurcina out to help on the Power play. JT and Wiz have no room to work.
FB4Real
"Past performance Is Not A Guarantee For Future Results"
i wonder what he’d be like on JT’s left… in nj, he has had trouble finding someone to get him the puck, on li, jt has trouble getting people to finish, or to get him the puck… but hey, then he would have priced himself out of our range as a RFA… now when we lose him, we’ll get 2 first rounders back from the rangers, who will STILL need help at C
a profound return... i still love sammy octoberfest :-)
I know it won't happen
But I do dream about us getting Ignilia, of course he only wants to go to a winner AND has a NMC, so that’s not happening.
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
M is for movement, like to the AHL
T is for trading, like what we do so well
to continue,
C is for cupcake, a tasty thing we sell
S is for silence, wang and snow don’t tell!
D is for Dookie, this streak we’re on does smell
a profound return... i still love sammy octoberfest :-)
Calgary will only trade Iginla for...
the next Iginla, and frankly, I’d rather have/keep the next one than this one.
If that makes any sense at all.
Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
"Forward, the Light Brigade!
"Charge for the guns!" he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
by Nova Scotia Isles Fan on Nov 19, 2010 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
Agree, I wouldn’t want him unless we could totally fleece Calgary.
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
shouldn’t be hard, everyone else has been fleecing them for a while now
a profound return... i still love sammy octoberfest :-)
You’d think, but I don’t think Blake Comeau, a 2nd rounder and an IOU Note will get it done this time
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
problem
We don’t have any former Calgary players to give back to Sutter in exchange.
Community Projected to have eleven more posts before blowing out his laptop
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Its a shame that no one is talking about JT being the St. Louis or the Stamkos. I’m not down on JT, but pretty soon he should be the stud that elevates the players around him and we shouldn’t be looking for others to help him elevate his play . Without more number 1 overall picks the likelihood of getting someone better than JT to elevate his play is slim to none.
maybe points to the issue that the Isles have a bunch of supporting players but not the high-end talent to carry them? And acquiring/developing some high-end talent is what the rebuild is about?
BOOM, there it is.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Nov 19, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
Hit me
That reminds me…a big reason we have no pre-existing high-end talent is because the Milbury Era squandered its assets for 10 years!
I know it’s tired and repetitive, but it still applies to today’s rebuild: Other teams have home-grown talent from at least every other year. While Milbury’s Exiles are still alive and well throughout the league, our pre-rebuild homegrown assets are Martinek…Comeau(?)…Okposo… (I know there are others, but they aren’t high-end…)
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.
2001-2005 basically gave us Nielsen/Comeau/Gervais/Campoli and Ryan Smyth.
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
I agree that the Isles have way too many 4-12 forwards, but even the 24th man on the roster doesn’t seem to be challenged since if he walks away the onus will be on the Islander organization more than on the player for being a not that good. I somewhat joked that Snow skipped the trade before firing step of the coach removal process, but it isn’t very funny that no one would want to swap for any of our depth players. I’d normally not opt for a trade just for a trades sake, but before firing the coach don’t you make at least one attempt to bring in “his type” of player?
The Isles seem very adept at picking up players with potential, but not translating that into something that resembles a team. An astute GM can take his spare parts, identify a team that would prefer his spare part to theirs and make a mutually beneficial deal. All we’ve been doing is collecting castoffs seeing if they fit, then discarding them when they don’t. It is an easy way to manage assets becasue it doens’t cost anything in the short term, but it doesn’t help much if all you do is have constant tryouts.
The Islanders have almost nothing to trade. Usually the two players I hear of the most interest in is MacDonald and Nielsen, and that’s due to them being cheap and effective.
Schremp might be tradeable, but I don’t think the Islanders want to give up on him this early, let alone we don’t know if there’s any market for him.
So it’s either start trading prospects or draft picks, which they won’t.
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Excellent Point Webby
The culture of the team starts at the top. For thirty years ownership has known that they can’t make money in that building. They haven’t spent money to get, or retain talent since the glory days… with the exception of Charles Wang… and he did it, how funny is this… to put lipstick on his hostage for when the cameras were on. The Islanders have become the Patty Hearst of the NHL.
It’s NY. Even in a market where the number one sports radio frequency’s number one host mixes up events that happened ten years apart (even though he said he was at the game where it happened) You can make money if you have the venue and you manage it correctly.
The Islanders have been prostituted for thirty years. In 1980 they sold their soul to stay in Hempstead. They took on a bad lease agreement because they COULDN’T go anywhere else. They took cablevision’s $20M/yr forever because they thought that woudl keep them afloat. Now they are existing in a building that has been left to rot with flooding locker rooms, torn seats and a stench of Mike Milbury that just won’t go away (sorry, had to throw that in there)… and are on TV network that is broadcast in UHF.
So… how do we make it better?
NO MORE TOH… I don’t care if they build the Taj Mahal of Hockey… this relationship is like an abusive husband. STOP GOING BACK… you’re just asking for more. Charles Wang clings to his ridiculous plan like Sharon Stone clung to “her money” in Casino, and the Islanders have become the kid tied to the bed. This relationship HAS TO END. (and every time he gets deeper in trouble he runs to bettman (pesce) and give him the wisniewski.
He either needs to find a new partner (Brooklyn, because there is really no other logical end…unless they are playing BJ next door), or he needs to sell. But who will buy? If the Islanders were moved to Brooklyn they would have an opportunity to be a stand alone in-the-black organization for the first time in their HISTORY. I’d like to see Charles give us a reason why this isn/t happening… or at least that he has something else in the works. When he does that, then maybe we can start changing the culture. Guys will start thinking THEY are the priority in the organization, and not some lame ass real estate development deal in the middle of a recession.
Meet THIS at the lighthouse!!!
Jack's not nimble, Jack's not quick, but Jack can get another top five pick!
They really should be working with the Net's people on making the Barclay's Center able to fit a rink
I’m not sure if it is too late but if it isn’t then this should be done. It makes sense. You can even change the name of the team if you have to. I’m really shocked that the current plans don’t leave room for a rink. You would think they would want that option even if it’s for minor leagues. If they moved in to Brooklyn or Queens the current fans will follow and you open up to a wider fan base. Screw TOH. If they don’t want anything in their back yard then lets take our toys and go away. Getting an arena deal done will give the fans hope. Something to cling to as we go through the bumpy road of rebuilding.
There is a lighthouse at the end of the tunnel.
dont see it
just dont see Wang as a joint-venture guy, he’s either selling or doing it 100% his way for his profit and his control… he sees Dolan, Leonsis, (cuban is trying for the stars now) and has invested so much time and money, i dont blame him for wanting to keep as much power as he can…
willets point means he splits profit and gets minimal land to develop vs his dream
bklyn even less, no?
shinnecock nation? haha, they’re going to share with him? unlikely
if this team keeps losing, his motto should be “meet me at the SAFE-house”
a profound return... i still love sammy octoberfest :-)
Even if Wang has given up working with the TOH, I think the worst thing he can do is start going after Brooklyn/Queens or any other sites too early. The way the fanbase is, I can see it falling apart even worse if word gets out Wang was moving the team 4 or 5 years before he could possibly move them. It was an ugly situation with the Nets from all accounts as the Nets announced they were moving to Brooklyn about 6 years before they could possibly get there.
If he announces he’s moving well before he does, the team is just going to bleed money even worse. I think Wang realizes he can’t work with the TOH and is quietly doing some of the legwork for a new place, but not enough that we can hear about.
And I think he really believes as they get closer to 2015 that TOH might come to their senses about losing the Islanders.
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
I went through the whole Milstein and Spano eras without setting foot in the Coliseum just to convince those guys to move on. It meant a lot of travel along the Eastern seaboard to watch them play live, but in the end nothing seems to help.
I think you'd admit
that Wang doesn’t deserve that kind of treatment. As much as I disagree with some of his knucklehead decisions and his motivation is sometimes questionable, he does deserve some respct for trying.
I don’t believe it to be a “poor me” situation, because a guy with that kind of resources has to ALLOW HIMSELF to be duped… but he was duped!
I’m thinking of sending him an email about how my sister and I are the heirs to an Ethyopian fortune… but she is trapped there and all I need is $4.5M for 15 years and I can promise to make him a multi-millionaire.
Which I believe is a joke he’s been passing around his socail circles….“The Islanders have made me a multi-millionaire… I used to be a BILLIONAIRE”
Jack's not nimble, Jack's not quick, but Jack can get another top five pick!
I was just trying to show that I’ve put my money where my mouth is becasue it cost a hell of a lot more to travel to see them than go to the Coliseum and I’ll always find a way to support them. So I’m not proposing a boycott of Wang either, I believe his heart is in the right place and I truly wish he could have a profitable franchise. My questions is often where is his head at? He just seems so damn stubborn, he’s appearing like a cartoon character that will keep doubling down not matter how destructive the end. He’s part Daffy Duck part Yosemite Sam.
CAN WE TRY
to remember that this current crop of “kids” have only been here for 2-3 years?? You can go through the entire litany of bad drafts, bad signings, pathetic GM’s, equally pathetic coaches, miserable trades, everything that has happened in the past 16 years (since our last playoff series win). it is probably all true. But, for me, part of the problem exists in the mindset of our own fans. For some reason, our fanbase claims to have bought into the “rebuild”, but now is constantly complaining that the “rebuild” is takng too long. What exactly did you expect?? A Stanley Cup after only 3 years?? Unreasonable expectations tend to lead to monumental disappointment. i know this franchise has been abysmal lately, and the owner is no bargain, and the Lighthouse project is smoke in ther wind (GO, BROOKLYN, GO). BUT, the team is stocking prospects like no tomorrow, and the future appears (I stress appears) bright. The problem is that nobody seems to be patient enough to let these guys develop in a reasonable time-frame. How long does it take for a John Taveras to develop when he does not have St. Louis and Lecavalier on his wings like Stamkos?? Should Bailey, Taveras, Comeau et al already be playing like All-Stars?? Are our expectations really that high?? Are we so desperate for a winner that we have put unreasonable expectations on players who are barely out of high school?? Already, I have read a post that hinted that Nino might be viewed as a bust and he has not even played ONE NHL season!!! WTF!!!!!!!! As much as this franchise may be in the pits right now, I believe patience must still be the watchword for all of us. Rome was not built in a day, and a Stanley Cup winner cannot be built overnight, no matter how desperately you may wish for it. Youth will be served, but it takes time. If you have been a fan of this team from the very beginning (or a Met fan), like me, patience is a virtue I have developed at painful cost. But i believe my patience will pay off eventually, it just might not happen as quickly as we all would like.
Can we please try to keep the goal judge awake??
by upstateislesfan on Nov 19, 2010 10:36 AM EST reply actions
I think I kept most of my complaints about the organization itself. I agree this is going to be a better team as it ages, but I just had a feeling that something was wrong with the Org after the Gordon firing. I really didn’t go after any of the youngsters, or that many of the players. Comeau’s play is just irritating. Eaton and Mottau are both vets who were brought in for more then their ability on the ice (Freddy Meyer was a better dman then Eaton last year) but they don’t seem to have the intangibles the Islanders were hoping for.
A franchise without the insanity of the last 15 years the Islanders have had might not have all these intangibles off the ice that are effecting play. It’s going to be a good team, but I’m worried about the young guys getting used to losing.
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
i get more upset that we have an “actual” salary, nearly $5M under the cap, but the org. raised ticket prices from last year to this year… seems like a kick in the balls to the die hard fan that would still go if they were upfront and realistic about their pricing… instead of alienating season ticket holders by selling comparable seats with a promo price 1/3rd of what they paid…
a profound return... i still love sammy octoberfest :-)
with the Rumor being that Wang wanted Gordon fired, I think the Islanders thought the Improvements to the Defense was going to push this team into the playoffs. I mean the Islanders had just as many goals last year as the Rangers and Devils, you bring back 90% of the same forwards (and improve on Tamb/Bergie/Park with PAP/Grabs/Martin) and almost a whole new defensive 6 along with the hope that DP can return to form, and you can see why they thought the team might have been competitive and maybe they thought the tickets would still sell.
I realize we’re in an 11 game streak, but given how streaky the team was last year, I still think they can be competitive. I just don’t think they’ll be competitive enough to sell those tickets.
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Improvement on Tambellini, Bergenheim and Park with PAP, Grabner and Martin isn’t a plan its wishful thinking. All six of those players are wild cards and Grabner was a gift at the last minute. Its hard to rely on any of those three new players to contribute more than those that went out. Moulson and Streit were rare gems, but that can’t be a permanent strategy. This is part of why this team is so streaky, it is a mish-mash of unknown quantities. We don’t need Milbury giving up too soon on players, but we can’t expect to survive on scraps forever either.
Ticket prices and general diccontent
To that point, TMC had a thorough rundown of what has the fanbase in a funk of ennui over at NHLArena. Worth a look.
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.
(don’t ask me what “diccontent” is though; I think it’s discontent turned up to 11.)
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.
For some reason, our fanbase claims to have bought into the "rebuild", but now is constantly complaining that the "rebuild" is takng too long. What exactly did you expect?? A Stanley Cup after only 3 years?? Unreasonable expectations tend to lead to monumental disappointment.
I do agree with that sentiment quite a bit actually. People are incredibly unrealistic about a rebuild. Examples abound around the league of them taking closer to a decade — and that’s with lucking into a superstar.
But I think this post goes more to the overall history; and one of the drawbacks of a rebuild that (IMO) began only in 2008 is that every trough or misstep gets fit into the narrative of the last 16 years, and people start to wonder, and you start to worry about it affecting the young players coming in.
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.
Agree
That is why it would behoove Capuano to get these “boys” to focus only on what they can control: what goes on on the ice. All this peripheral BS should be shielded from them (I know how hard that probably is: Media Capital of the World and all) at all costs. Things are tough enough playing in front of minimal and impatient crowds, without players having to worry about the owners troubles with TOH and a “losing culture”. None of these “kids” were around when this cycle started, and maybe they should be encouraged to put their own stamp on this franchise. Everyone should try to relax and let these “kids” put their best foot forward without all this undo pressure of having to WIN NOW.
Can we please try to keep the goal judge awake??
by upstateislesfan on Nov 19, 2010 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
And honestly, these kids sound committed. Maybe because it’s all they’ve ever known, but I’ll take it. JT, Bailey come from the proverbial “winning environments.” KO’s motor is like a sack-happy D lineman. You just hope they see light at the end before they get demoralized, like has happened with some expansion team stars.
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.
i dont trust 20 year olds - i hate losing now and it's gotta be worse for them
the only saving grace is that the team has the huge edge in the RFA battle… we’ll see if it survives the pending new NHLPA/CBA regime… notice how involved JT’s been, as a 19/20 year old already?
a profound return... i still love sammy octoberfest :-)
I try to seperate the horror in hempstead from the product on the ice, and I’m all for the re-build. I knew it would be ugly, but 11 game ugly is a big problem and not trending in the right direction. Some of the key building blocks are looking lost out there and need help, a steady hand and Weight can’t do it alone. You don’t need to mortgage the future to be respectable, but for me the most frustrating part is that the organization is building such a poor reputation that it will be nearly impossible to get those steadying pieces ever.
The good thing is that we may be at the bottom, but we have our own picks. It takes a little bit of luck if you want the re-build to happen quickly since the quality of the draft class means as much as anything. Again, I don’t worry about rebuilding, I can be patient, but look organized and stop the circus atmosphere or you ruin your reputation while you’re at it.
How long did it take the Blackhawks to "rebuild" ?
Seems to me that it took them about 4 years. Toews and Kane were playing a lot better in their first two years than Tavares is right now, and the talent around them was only marginally better. And that franchise was run equally as bad as ours for almost the same length of time. Last year the Isles saw definite improvement from the year before. This year that is not the case, they are congressing instead of progressing. Losing streaks are inevitable but we shouldn’t be having 11 game losing streaks anymore. The team I don’t think is that bad.
The New York Islanders....they make opposing goalies look gooooood.
Except the Blackhawks didn’t completely fail at drafting from 00-05
in 04 they bottomed out at 59 points
in 06 they had 65
in 07 they had 71
in 08 (Kane and Toews rookie years) they had 88
So they only had a 17 point improvement by adding Kane and Toews, because the team was already on an upward swing from earlier drafts.
The Isles bottomed out in 09 with 61 points
and last season they had 79 with the addition of JT, MM and Rollie.
But the Islander teams in 07 (92 points) and 08 (79 points) had almost no one that is on the squad right now because a lot of the team was free agent signees.
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
The Penguins
02 69 Points
03 65 Points
04 58 Points
06 58 Points
07105 Points
That comes out to a lot of bottom 3 picks, with Malkin in 05 and Crosby in 06 being the most important, as Malkin joined the team in 07 after Crosby’s rookie year.
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
That’s the biggest problem with the Islanders 5 year re-build plan, it assumes the 5 previous years weren’t a waste land. It is going to take more than a couple more years and therefore Snow should have toned down the playoffs rhetoric. For a guy that doesn’t speak much he put Gordon in quite the knot with that one refrain.
Last year the Isles saw definite improvement from the year before. This year that is not the case, they are congressing instead of progressing.
Last year we saw them far less injured than the year before.
This year, we have not had our top TOI players for F&D from last year for even one second of hockey.
You (fans in general, not you specifically) cant completely ignore things like this and compare bemoaning no signs of progress. Different year, different situation.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Nov 19, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
It also has to be mentioned that the improvement might have had more to do with the Upgrade in goaltending, although the stats don’t bare out, Rollie definitely kept us in a lot more games then Danis & MacDonald
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
I can't speak for anybody else...
… but I think wasn’t impatience with the rebuild, I think it was a question of patience with the plan.
We’ve gotten to see Scott Gordon for 2 plus years. You have to admit there werent many WOW moments in the 180 or so games. I can’t say he was a BAD coach, but I can surmize that his style didn’t fit with the talent that they have… and with the talent that is coming up.,.. so how much longer do you commit to whiteboard hockey if it’s not working as you build a team.
Again… with Streit and Okposo and amac we may not be having this conversation… but what happens when we finally get Petrov, Kabanov, CDH, Hamonic… what if four of htose five look like slack jawed 3 rd graders… do we have to start all over again.
I have hope that this coaching change is a step in the right direction and towards changing the losing culture. The next step will be gaining some spark from some new shiny toys.. Rhett and Poulin come to mind.
Jack's not nimble, Jack's not quick, but Jack can get another top five pick!
My take on Capuano is that this is a temporary move. I agree Gordon never felt right, but I also think it because the players didn’t match the system and never would. The plan may be right, but we have every right on to judge the execution of the plan. Build through the draft, stockpile draft picks, don’t lock into any long term contracts that saddle the team, allow players to develop properly, all sounds great, but who makes the picks, who do they sign to contracts, where are the players developing and who develops the players all comes into question. This will require a lot of patience because you’re right 3 years from now some of these guys may be busts and we hope that the deciders made the right ones becasue it’ll be starting from scratch again.
I agree Gordon never felt right, but I also think it because the players didn’t match the system and never would. The plan may be right, but we have every right on to judge the execution of the plan.
That’s exactly how I see Gordon (I don’t buy the line that “oh, he’s an AHL coach.” Guess what? Every coach is. Until they’re promoted.): Good coach, many many people who should know say so. Wrong players, many many people say so.
They thought it was important he train these kids who will be the core on his system, so it would pay off in the long run. Problem is, they couldn’t get to the long run with him, probably due to his biggest flaw: He needed to adjust his approach for the weaker players he had, then bring out the glitzy whiteboard system later when he had a better roster. But I don’t think this situation arises if KO and Streit are in the lineup. The first coach in a rebuild always bites the dust before the good days arrive.
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.
First coach in the re-build is usually brought in to set the table and preach the fundamentals. See what Roger Nielsen did wherever he went, set up a tight defensive system to establish the fundamentals and minimize the long losing streaks (Tom Renney is similar, LeMaire is in this category and the last). Next coach is brought in based on the type of talent the team has and lets them exploit it. One of those "players "coaches. The Caps did this by bringing up Boudreau, they have the horses and he let’s them run. Terry Crisp was one of these player coaches, Denis Savard was tried in Chicago, PAt Quinn is bothered by pesky Xs and Os. If that fails in comes the taskmaster. You bring in a Bowman, that now has a team, deep in talent, knows how to play properly, but has been allowed to try it their way. He’s the tactician that can fire up the players and make in game decisions without all that basic teaching (LaViolette seems like he can be a Bowman, but not a Nielsen).
only one guy I know rode the elevator all the way from the basement to the penthouse
Al Arbour.
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*choir of angels sings*
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.
Shit, I chose George Jefferson as my answer.
by Hockey1919 on Nov 19, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
LOLOLOLOL
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LMAO!
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Nov 19, 2010 8:43 PM EST up reply actions
Losing two players shouldn't totally derail an entire franchise
Losing Streit and Okposo was tough but losing those two guys shouldn’t handicap the team to the point where they can’t compete on any given night. I know the injuries aren’t just limited to Streit and Okposo but they are the biggies, at this point with or without them we still shouldn’t be suffering through 11 game losing streaks.
The New York Islanders....they make opposing goalies look gooooood.
The very last sentence of your post.....Great Post by the way.
The Culture of Losing now runs deep within the Islanders, because it’s been around so long: With no playoff series wins since 1993, they may be one of the worst franchises of any sport in the last two decades.
This is really what it is all about. On Botta’s interview with Francesa yesterday…. Botta defended Wang in statement when he basically said that Wang cares very deeply about the team and he is very involved and more than anything in the world wants to keep the team on LI. Francesa stated that he felt and Botta agreed….that love him or hate him now…..Mr. Wang saved the franchise when he bought it back then.
I think I agree with a lot of that….but on the other hand….the islanders, in a strange parrallel may be in a similar position to what the NY YANKEES were in before Mr. Steinbrenner was forced to take a leave from everyday operations of the team back in the very early 90’s.
I don’t know who a Bill Parcell’s type guy would be in NHL world…..or more importantly if he would be come on board and try to take over something like this.
They have the great names (Bossy, Trotts, Potivin, Arbour, etc.) But many of those names are so far removed from it all or really don’t have any experience building somethiong like this on an executive level.
Are there Bill Torrey protege’s? Is Dave Checkets still with the Blues?…I don’t know….
If Mr. Wang is sticking is head to far into Hockey matters….he may be hurting the situation.
FB4Real
"Past performance Is Not A Guarantee For Future Results"
Agree, I don’t think bringing back in the Older guys are going to do anything. I also don’t know whose a Bill Parcells type in the NHL right now. But finding another guy like Stevie Y should be doable. Someone that’s been in one of the winning franchises (Devils, Wings, Sharks, Stars etc) and can come in and change things around.
I’d almost compare it to the Yankees before George took them over.
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Would a Stevie Y take a position with the Islanders if offered? That is my growing concern. You can re-build and be terrible on the ice as kids progress and everyone will realize what you are doing. Snow was showing a steady hand and doing well, then things started to get batshit crazy again in all the subtle ways that lead to a boiling pot of rabbit in the kitchen.
Jankowski, Trottier, Jaffe, Gordon, this nonsense with Botta, are not the things that a normal and stable ownership does. The "Saw "guys in Tampa had everyone run away even with St. Loius, Stamkos, and LeCavalier, not becuase of the players and their potential, but the insanity and drama they brought. They leave then all of a suden a bright young coach and Yzerman comes in and everyone is blowing sunshine instead of smoke. This is the same Bolt team that lost six of seven and no one said a word because they are at least respectable.
The Saw guys also started bleeding cash if I remember right, that’s one of the reasons that they started cutting the budget.
Sometimes guys like Stevie Y just want to move on and try it on there own. If your in an organization that’s been winning a lot the last 5-10 years, then at some point people must start trying to poach you. If you come to the Islanders it’s a challenge of course, but the Upside of winning with the Islanders is almost like winning in the towns of any of the original six.
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Whatever motivated them to go was a blessing for the Bolts. From the Melrose hiring to all of the nonsense they made the franchise a joke and they had to overpay to bring players (see Malone) in which put them deeper in the red. My point was that Stevie Y doesn’t go there if those clowns still run the ship. Show some sanity and communicate a well thought out plan and you’ll get the benefit of the doubt and attract people looking for a challenge and that are competent.
The Saw gang really upsets me
They had a solid team there, a still-buzzing fanbase, and they flushed it down the drain with hubris. “We’re big hockey fans, we know how to do things, we’ll come in and do it right and hire that TV personality who coached in a different era and had Gretzky. Oh and because we know what we’re doing, we’re going to screw Dan Boyle because I never liked him; Matt Carle will be just fine.”
Criminal.
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.
All about meeting ownership
Stevie Y met the new owner and liked what he saw and got the security/commitment he desired. If the same scenario happened except with the Isles, I’m sure it would depend on how his meeting with Wang went.
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.
if offered, maybe, he wore 19 for a reason, and that reason is still employed (although in what capacity only God knows) by the isles, lol
a profound return... i still love sammy octoberfest :-)
I don’t know who a Bill Parcell’s type guy would be in NHL world
I can think of a few who think they’re Parcells, hahaha.
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.
who are the protege's in Hockey?
Who are the billy beane’s to the sandy alderson. Where are the Brian Sabean’s, whoever is running the minnesota twins, Buck showalter type.
FB4Real
"Past performance Is Not A Guarantee For Future Results"
They are lying low
To the extent there are Beanes out there, I think they know not to advertise it and initiate copycats.
Holland in Detroit would be on; he inherited quite a bounty of good and a “winning culture” but he’s also been shrewd getting vets to sign at below market and was one of the first to realize i you can’t get one of the clearly elite/top 5 goalies in the league then it’s not worth investing a large portion of your payroll in them.
(In other words, why spend $5M on a goalie if he’s one of the guys ranked 8-30 who are all virtually interchangable depending on the month) when you can get a guy of similar quality for peanuts and apply the savings to a better scoring forward?)
I suspect Gillis in Vancouver is also trying unconventional things, in terms of spending money on peripheral non-cap ways to help his players succeed. Also, Burke is hardly Beane-like but he at least recognizes in a cap world he can use MLSE’s massive revenues to buy up every college or Nordic goalie free agent who comes available.
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.
No idea, honestly
I like how he looks at the game in terms of entertainment value. His rules committee during the lockout was so painfully obvious and yet no one in a position of influence had bothered to make it happen for 10 years. So he certainly knows something.
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.
I think he’s been in enough winning organizations, dealt with the big markets, wasn’t willing to accept losing (or is a jerk for abandoning a team that needed his leadership), tremendously talented as a player, but foguth for every bit of ice, has fallen under some great GMs and is respected in hockey circles. IF hew gets the Team CAnada GM job for the Worlds in the nexy couple of seasons he’s on his way.
Yeah, he certainly has the background of exposure. I just have no idea…I mean Gretzky saw a lot, knew a lot, was probably in over his head as both a co-owner/manager and coach.
I am tickled by how much GM of Team Canada seems to boost credentials though. Maybe there’s something in that job I’m missing, but when Yzerman was getting all this praise for running Team Canada, I thought, “Isn’t this job basically ’Don’t crash the Ferarri into the damn ravine and everything will be fine?’”
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.
Gretzky has alwasy been a strange beast to me. Never liked him, maybe that is my inner Smitty talking. Shanahan seems to be more relatable and able to establish the relations a GM needs to maintain. If his game translates into his work habits, he’ll be skilled, but willing to get dirty.
Then again when you have the keys to the Ferrari, every little scratch gets noticed too.
Brilliant, Bard
Very well written, Web. Glad you took this up.
I think a lot of Wang’s moves as owner of the Islanders make much more sense if you consider them in the light of corporate culture. A business doesn’t like to air its internal disagreements. Employees are generally expected to stay on message, which is why they have official spokesmen and PR departments authorized to speak for the company. They’re not expected to share even just critiques in front of the public. And this fits very well with the Far Eastern culture that emphasizes public marks of deference to elders and superiors.
The West is just wildly different. Our First Amendment, for example, not only guarantees freedom of speech and of the press: it also guarantees the right to petition the government for redress of wrongs. IOW, the highest law of the land in the USA is the right to publicly complain about your leaders. And just like corporate/Esatern culture dovetails, so does sports culture in the West with this value – the right to speak one’s mind. We buy tickets and boo from the stands; we flood talk-shows with calls; we start blogs. This doesn’t mean, of course, that we have the right to be told everything – but we have the right to DEMAND to know. We can be ignored, but not punished or forbidden.
On top of that, we lionize our rebels, the guys who scrap and argue and talk back – we even made “Question Authority” a bumper sticker. We love big personalities. When the coaches go out to kick dirt on an ump’s shoes, it’s theater. Even if we’re embarassed and lament the loss of civility, we rally around that guy who acts like he cares. (I think this helps explain why Sean Avery has his defenders despite the crap he always pulls.) A guy like Nate Thompson becomes a cult hero. A far superior player like Alexei Yashin becomes a pariah. The unforgivable sin is not to be irascible, but to be aloof or surly.
So – let’s say that George Steinbrenner buys the Islanders in 2001, instead of Charles Wang. He comes from this familiar culture. He’s going to make moves that fans can understand – even if they hate them at the time. He’ll have passionate defenders as well as detractors. I mentioned in another thread that he fired five different coaches mid-year while they had winning records. (That’s an extreme example to be sure.)
Wang did the exact opposite. The first thing he did was keep Milbury. The second thing he did was to offer Yashin a long and lucrative contract – because Yashin said that the thing he valued even above the compensation was loyalty. He made RDP the face of the franchise and signed him to what amounts to a lifetime deal. That wasn’t just loyalty uber alles, either, but based on sound business principles: if you need widgets, you make a deal that supplies them to you at a locked rate for 15 years. Boom, you never have to worry about your widgets. Well, in the NHL, you need good goaltending, and RDP was developing pretty well. Boom – the Isles weren’t going to have to worry about their supply of goaltending for 15 years.
Of course, in this case the widget factory burned to the ground. But just because it didnt’ work out doesn’t mean it was a bad idea… just a different idea. Unfamiliar. It had enough merit to cause a rush of teams locking up their own young franchise players for extended time: Ovechkin signed for eight years, Mike Richards for twelve (I believe). The Isles get laughed at when in fact it was a pioneering idea… they happened to catch a terrible break.
And again – Wang doesn’t fire Milbury (who has been loyal), nor Gordon (likewise)… they are shown loyalty in return. But a guy like Jaffe or Botta, by going outside the organization with criticism, are dismissed. To us, it seems petty. It’s not how we do things in sports, or in America. It is exactly how things are done in business or in the East, however. Even in Eastern sports – it is shockingly rare to see anyone argue with an umpire in the Japanese leagues.
Does it make Wang right? Wrong? Not sure. It makes him different, however – not assigning a value to the distinction, just observing that it’s there, and it makes clear a lot of what the Islanders have tried to do under his ownership. And you know – if the Isles win in 2002, if they surprised a team in the first round after that… just a twitch here and there, nothing extraordinary… if Smyth stays in 2004, if RDP becomes a perennial and durable All-Star… then the Isles suddenly look like geniuses and trailblazers for doing things differently – even though the choices would have all been exactly the same step by step.
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by mikb on Nov 19, 2010 10:47 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
Well put...
I do disagree with you however on the points about Yashin and RDP. Why overpay there.. Yashin was in no position to demand anything. I’m glad that Wang was trying to help make a winner… but he was bidding against himself… what Eastern philosophy dictates you throw money away.
I never really did understand about the Yashin buyout. He didn’t perform to the amount of his contract, but that was an inflated number (by wang) that was out of Yashin’s grasp. I often used the analogy of going to Ruth’s Chris getting a $50 steak… it tastes like a $30 steak… so you send it back for half of your money back… now you have spent $25 and you’re still hungry and you spend $10 to fill your belly.. you’ve spent $35 for crap when you could have had a $30 steak for $50… WHY?
In the case of RDP… when the widget factory burns to the ground you cancel your contract… you don’t give company money to shovel ashes. Something needs to be done with Rick, and not in the NHL. He needs to go to Bridgeport, work out his issues, OR RETIRE.
Wang is being too soft on the guy, and I don’t know why. If me or you made $20M the last 5 years to rehab hip and knee issues we’d be happy as hell.. especially knowing that we will be getting some type of insurance payoff so that we don’t have to do manual labor for the rest of our lives (well.. the $20M probably took care of that anyway)… I get the whole “he wants to compete”… but why do we have to watch him compete… he’s got $20 million, let him start a rec league for millionaires… maybe donald trump will lace up some skates and televise it… but give Charles and the Islander fans some RELIEF….retire!
Jack's not nimble, Jack's not quick, but Jack can get another top five pick!
Wang seems like the type that cannot admit a mistake and that is why there is never ever any turning back. When challenged he digs in even deeper. Many of the Islanders decisions if made by another team wouldn’t be second guessed, but it when you see someone that does a lot of unorthodox things that backfire it becomes automatice that you second guess them trying to re-invent the wheel.
regarding Yash and RDP
The money may have been insane (at least in Yashin’s case) but the term was not. I’ll agree that they overpaid, but I never had a problem with the length of the deal… and that’s specifically what I was considering here. In addition, I don’t think that Yashin or his agent demanded that sort of money; they definitely wanted a deal to keep him on Long Island through his prime, for a team to show him loyalty and respect that he felt he didn’t ever get in Ottawa.
Now, maybe ten years at 65 million does it. Maybe then he’s still playing here. But leaving aside money for the moment – I really think that the ten years was the main point to Yashin and Wang.
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Hadn’t Yashin become a locker room cancer again? Wasn’t that part of the reasoning of buying him out?
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
In retrospect, how can you believe that side of the story...
there are only four (Hunter, Marty, Nielsen and RDP) players from that team still on the isalnders… so if he was THE cancer he must ahve already spread. If he was a cancer, then RDP must be like dysentery. I wasn’t crazy about Yashin’s output, but he did perform, as a matter of fact he was on pace for an “ISLANDER” career year before injury. And this is where the logic falls apart… If you want to see the buyout, then you want to see Wang spend EVEN MORE MONEY to replace him… see my Ruth’s Chris PLU McDonalds dynamic… he bought him out, never replaced him and then he goes on to finish out his playing days in russia banging super models and eating caviar on the money that season ticket holders are forking over… and being asked to fork over more for THAT and a goaltender who may have to ask the league for a CRUTCH WAIVER.
DUMB DUMB DUMD DUMB DUMB
plus… any time you hear anybody close to the team talk about yash personally (even fans) “He was the nicest, most professional man I’ve met”… it never sounded like he was a cancer.
Jack's not nimble, Jack's not quick, but Jack can get another top five pick!
An operable but still debilitating "cancer"
Yashin suffered from the Uninspired Leader problem. He was Craig Janney. He was: “Wow, what a talent! But is this a guy to lead men? Is this a guy who others will lay it all on the line for?”
There is no way his presence did not suck life out of that room. You can’t have a top-salary go-to guy with a rep for disappearing at times ALSO have profess the expectation that he should be captain. Some of that isn’t fair: It’s not his fault he’s quiet, and he certainly battled through a lot of abuse to not be dismissed as soft. But you can only go so far in the NHL with that guy as your ostensible leader. On this issue, Milbury was right in that if you’re going to bring in Yashin you need to buffer him with a Peca.
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.
by Dominik on Nov 19, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You can’t have a top-salary go-to guy with a rep for disappearing at times ALSO have profess the expectation that he should be captain. Some of that isn’t fair: It’s not his fault he’s quiet, and he certainly battled through a lot of abuse to not be dismissed as soft. But you can only go so far in the NHL with that guy as your ostensible leader
Once again Dom one ups me by saying what I meant, only better
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
agreed...but do radiation treatments
Don’t cut off your $80M leg, and replace it with a $700K peg…. that’s why you rich people have medical insurance…
Jack's not nimble, Jack's not quick, but Jack can get another top five pick!
I'm rich???
Man, I should have asked you for a raise earlier, JP!
Dom – rec’d for the Yashin-Peca dynamic. A captain has to be able to command respect, and Peca was a good, respected player so that Yashin would buy into it. Problem was, Peca also had his bad moments. But I will say…. Craig Janney?!? I think Yashin was a better player than Janney; a better scoring threat for certain, though maybe not as good a passer (but that often depends who you’re feeding the puck to).
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Damn you... muttling my metaphor!
/smiling… while sipping my 5:00 Woodford Reserve… at 4:00 just to say.. F U Office workers!
Jack's not nimble, Jack's not quick, but Jack can get another top five pick!
Aye, I’ll buy that. They needed to add around him. Surround the Mogilny, The Bure, the Jagr with someone who will put a lid on their pouting. Peca’s decline really mucked things up. Still think Yashin would’ve been insulted to not be captain, and don’t know who they could’ve brought in, but it could’ve worked and their talent wouldn’t have taken such a big hit.
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.
Oh I think he was better than Janney too. Far more able to create more on his own — and didn’t suffer from Weight’s Disease (“Stop me before I pass again!”). Gotta love a passing center who can shoot the puck.
But in terms of drive and leadership not matching up to the shiny skilled veneer, Yashin very much reminded me of Janney (Boston version and early St. Louis version, not the NYI version or any of the versions that went from being traded for Oates to being traded for Louie f-ing DeBrusk).
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.
I hear that
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I am usually in agreement with you...
but I think we have to agree to disagree. If you don’t think that giving a goaltender who has accomplished nothing a 15 year deal for what may…may…may.. at the very best prove to be slightly finiancially tilted in your favor was not risk perverse (lacking a better term) then I have to question your logic. I can’t see that applying anywhere, in any business dynamic. That’s like renting an aprtment that’s listed at $900/MO, and telling hte landlord I’ll give you $1500/mo if you’ll give me a 15 year lease instead of one. Well… if the apartment doesn’t burn to the ground in 5 years you may reach some level discount when in the 11th year of your lease the shitty apartments on your floor are renting for $2000… but now you’ve been forced to live in ashitty apartment for 11 years and have paid as much as the folks who have rented year to year… and none of your neighbors are still there… they all moved into houses with the money they saved…. and when you thought better of it you think… wow… could have 25% space and been accruing equity if I had established a $1500 15 year mortgage.
Yashin’s deal is really nitpicking … the devil is in the buyout. I’ll never understand that logic.
Jack's not nimble, Jack's not quick, but Jack can get another top five pick!
Appreciated
And you always have the trump card – the guy got hurt and now he’s essentially a fragile Toskala.
I still think that at the time, the decision as seen from Wang’s POV was defensible… you had a young and promising goalkeeper, well-regarded, and people you trust are telling you he’s going to be a top-ten guy in the league for a long time. You look across the river and see what Marty Brodeur has meant to the Devils as a franchise cornerstone. Your guy has just made the Olympics, he’s young and handsome and says everything right about taking the Islanders back to the Stanley Cup… and you’ve made the playoffs with him in net. Then the year he signs the contract he has a .919 sv%, five shutouts, a 2.58 GAA for a not-so-good team, they go to the playoffs; the year after that he makes the All-Star Game, has a .911 sv% and 2.57 GAA. High-fives all around, right?
And then he gets hurt. Wanna throw up a little? Dig these numbers as of 5 PM today:
19 yr-old rookie: 3-15-1 .. 3.49 GAA (63 goals in 1083 minutes) .878 sv % (452 sv on 515 sh), 0 so
age 21-26, pre-injury: 107-83-27 .. 2.67 GAA (587 goals in 13193 minutes) .9096 sv % (5903 sv on 6490 sh), 13 so
post ASG, 2008: 6-11-1 .. 3.36 GAA (64 goals in 1142 minutes) .881 sv % (473 sv on 537 sh), 1 so
08-09 to present: 5-11-2 .. 3.40 GAA (65 goals in 1146 minutes) .881 sv % (480 sv on 545 sh), 1 so
Based on the numbers in italics – the healthy, still-developing RDP behind a mostly crap team – then $4.5 million seems perfectly fair. Remember that you offered the contract before the league began to use cheap, decent goaltending to win the Cup rather than expensive elite goaltending. Based on what is being paid to the elite guys, you look like a frickin’ genius with a $4.5 million goalie, saving 2 or 3 million against the cap every year – that’s two excellent complementary players, or extra space under the cap to keep a couple of stars who might otherwise walk. You have every reason to believe that your unorthodox idea is paying off.
Based on what happened after he “f’k’d up his hip” at the All-Star Game? It’s eerie how those three nearly-identical sample sizes yield nearly-identical results, ain’t it? He’s struggling just to maintain his 19-year-old performance levels…. It’s a disaster.
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by mikb on Nov 19, 2010 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Now I see your logic...
Your guy has just made the Olympics, he’s young and handsome and says everything right about taking the Islanders back to the Stanley Cup
This is exactly what Arbour and Torrey used to say about Smitty… I saw it in a documentary somewhere…
Torrey Yeah, I picked Smitty up in the supplemental because he was young, handsome and the shicks dig the way he can fart the national anthem in perfect tone and inflection… the problem was, when we took him, he cold only do the canadian anthem…
Arbour: yeah… that’s why we needed Chico… but then, like it came to him in a dream… after the pre game buffet he rings out the prettiest star spangled banner you ever did here… and he did it in the butterfly…. which said everything right about winning stanley cups.
Sorry… for some reason I had that bouncing in my head I felt like this was the opportune time to let it out… I appreciate your stats, and I’m too lazy to go check out where his PEERFECT STORM stats ranked him amongst his peers, but I’m betting those aren’t top 5 numbers… again… too lazy to look this up, I would lay 7-5 that $4.5 M was a top 5 salary at the time… and you can get a guy who’s won a few playoff series for $5M now… where’s the beef?
I understand your point, and I even feel silly arguing mine… but I will never see the logic in signing RDP for 15 years or buying Yashin out. And if that makes me irrational… I’ll accept it.
Jack's not nimble, Jack's not quick, but Jack can get another top five pick!
nah, don't be like that
It’s all good, JP… No need to feel silly at all. You’re passionate and I’m passionate (despite the research-fu). You’re certainly not irrational… and even if you were, given the topic, who could blame you? Like I said, you’ve got the trump card – he did get hurt and that contract is now an albatross. Even if he recovers his form… that form is a .910 sv%, which is, well, just adequate. Middle of the pack-ish. Not worth 4.5 million bucks. And I’m howling at your Torrey/Arbour “memories” about Smitty.
Since you asked, I searched back to 07-08 (the earliest I could find.) RDP’s cap hit was tenth-highest among goalies, narrowly edging out Manny Fernandez’ $4.33 mil in Boston. Your top nine for that year were:
9. Martin Brodeur, NJ, $5.2 mil
8. Jose Theodore, Avs, $5.33
7. Evgeny Nabokov, SJ, $5.375 (heheheheh)
6. Olaf Kolzig, Wash, $5.450
tie-4. Marty Turco, Dallas, $5.7
tie-4. Tomas Vokoun, Fla, $5.7
3. JS Giguere, Ducks, $6.0
tie-1. Roberto Luongo, Van, $6.75
tie-1. Nik Khabibulin, Chc, $6.75
In addition, Lundqvist was about to jump from $4.25 to $6.875 thanks to his extension, and Kiprusoff was due to jump from $3.33 to $5.83. (FWIW, the Oilers were paying Roli $3.67 million against the cap, and Biron was getting $3.5 million from Philly.)
So… it’s clear they were overpaying him to start, but the hope was that he would outperform the contract for some time. If he was as good as any of the guys above him on that list they would have had a relative bargain… or at least, a guy they could loan out to Europe. =P
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by mikb on Nov 19, 2010 9:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And let’s just throw this out there, no one cares what the goalies making if you manage to win the Cup. I mean Giggy would perenially have bad regular seasons, but would come alive in the playoffs. I’m sure no one in Anaheim cared about the cap hit when they were celebrating with the cup.
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Important info, thanks for digging it up!
At the time, all salaries pointed upward and the goalie market did NOT appear that it was about to crash as it has the last two summers.
I wasn’t a fan of the deal simply because 15 years carries too many risks for my liking at that position (I did think he was on his way to being a solid #1 though). But from cap/budget/salary scale purposes you could see what they were thinking: i.e. $4.5M is reasonable today, it’s going to be a BARGAIN for the middle 8 years or so!
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and MacDonald were important.
Great points!
On Loyalty: And maybe this is a cultural thing as well, but I’d not thought of it until you brought it up…You wonder if CW’s perception of loyalty (or belief in loyalty) is rooted in the idea that the word = the deed. In western culture, the word often only means “I will be as I’ve always been, but I won’t leave” not “I will give my all or try to improve for the good of all”.
Where I am going with this is perhaps CW didn’t recognize that often in this culture, a tiger does not change his stripes and loyalty and honor are not as highly regarded…especially in sporting circles since the dawn of free agency. Yashin did not reward CW’s loyalty by elevating his game to be a leader, but continued to be the same old Yash. Likewise, DP improved, but the flaws in his game were never worked on because of essentially arrogance toward both player’s self-perceived worth.
Counter to that point, I think he misinterprets criticism as not being loyal where in this culture (particularly North American sporting culture), criticism may not communicate disloyalty, just an acknowledgment of fact and a tool on how to get better. The strange thing is if you completely flipped the script on those who were kept and those who were jettisoned, we could be in entirely different shape. It is bizarro world and opposite day all in one!
Sarcasm experience enhanced by Samsung (TM)
by Keith Quinn on Nov 19, 2010 9:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
pretty much everything in here ....
makes sense. in the immortal words of dr. samuel johnson at the town meeting in rock ridge – “now who can argue with that?” sorry if this is redundant but it’s how i have felt all along. for me the bottom line for about 5 years now is this team is literally in a holding pattern. the ‘culture’ of this team – that is the overall state of things including the on-ice product – WILL NOT CHANGE until (and unless) the arena issue and the team’s future on LI/in NY is certain. i believe the owner has made a fundamental decision – one that i can’t find much fault with from his perspective – that he is not going to invest anymore than he absolutely must to keep the franchise breathing. that makes the ‘rebuild’ essentially a ‘just-in-case’ scenario, so that there will be some viable pieces in place in the event the future is secured and arena deal consummated. in light of this, i don’t think anyone should be surprised that the owner is running a bare bones operation, that no game changing free agents are being loired here, and that the team still sucks. the circus atmosphere and any abbott and costello antics of ownership/management are really beside the point. including the latest botta debacle. if the good news we all hope may still come about the future happens, THEN a true ‘rebuild’ will start and the ‘culture’ will improve. and once it does, it will happen fast.
and we’ll all be fired up about this team like in the ‘old’ days, and all the bumblepuppy that’s going on now will be forgotten or laughed about.
dose johnson is right!
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dose johnson is right!
about gabby johnson being right.
I'm glad you kids are here today
…to hear this fine speech by Bard Johnson…
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I for one would like to bury the past for good
I can’t help but roll my eyes every time someone brings up the dynasty years in relation to today’s team. All that happened before I was born. All that happened before half the roster was born.
It’s a really inspiring story – those guys accomplished something incredible. But it’s the past. The game of hockey is different, the culture of the NHL is different, and no amount of pining for the “good old days” is going to bring that back. It may even be detrimental to the players on the team to be haunted by this legacy they can’t live up to.
You want to apply some pressure to the squad? Don’t ask them to rebuild the legacy, to “return The Cup to its rightful place on Long Island,” to honor the history of a storied franchise. Tell them to do it for them. Tell them that they are not “The New York Islanders.” Tell them they are John, Josh, Matt, Blake etc. They aren’t playing for the crest on their sweaters. They’re playing for each other. They are playing for the couple thousand fans who show up every night to see them win. They’re never going to be that same group of guys in the locker room again. Players come and go. So all they can do is play for the present – for the guys who are on the ice every night, and for the people cheering for them when they’re out there. The past and the future are distractions.
So tell them that the season isn’t over.
The playoffs might be out of reach now, but you know what isn’t? Their dignity. Their self worth. Their reputations as hockey players. Those can still be salvaged, and that is what these players are playing for. They might sit the post season out again, but they can sure as hell make the teams in 10-15 place look like bad and give the big boys a few lumps along the way. They can make the commentators acknowledge that they’ve got the right stuff even if the season didn’t go their way.
by ilopan on Nov 19, 2010 11:40 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
With all due respect,
this has nothing to do with the past vs. the future, or reliving anything, or anyone’s age, or comparing today’s team or today’s game to yesterday’s team or yesterday’s game, or asking any current player to live up to anything other than his own ability.
Okay, leave out the phrase “old days.” The word “rebuild” means building a winning team. Period. And noone’s asking anyone on this team now to do anything more than play hard and do their best.
The point is the team and the freakin ‘culture’ everyone keeps bringing up isn’t changing – and it’s not changing BY DESIGN – until the owner is satisified there is certainty on the future.
That was it. That was the point.
we're doomed
The problem here is that the culture keeps changing every 2 yrs and for the worse…NO TRADITION
Just my opinion, of course
But I don’t think professional athletes give a rat’s ass about things like tradition, arenas, etc. (Yankees may be a possible exception.) They care mostly about money and winning.
The Islanders can theoretically offer the former — although they certainly haven’t, recently — but not at all the latter. Consequently, no top tier (or even second tier) free agent is going to sign with them.
The clown show of coaches and GMs definitely hasn’t helped. And the recent drama with Botta just hammers home that this is a mickey mouse organization.
It’s one thing when your loading the team with Free Agents, but another when your building from the ground up. You should be fostering a pride in your draft picks in your teams history. It gives meaning to the Jersey they put on, it gives them long term goals, it shows that if they are successful the fans will be back out like they were back then.
History is valuable in a lot of ways, it’s when it’s forgotten that it’s worthless.
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
by Mark D on Nov 19, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
AMEN
I am out of here for the weekend, but i just want to say to all you faithful: Do not give up on these kids, folks, because you are watching the future grow up right in front of you. There will always be growing pains (some worse than others) but if you hang in there the good times will be back. Just stay patient with the players and stop worrying about all the ancillary BS.
Can we please try to keep the goal judge awake??
by upstateislesfan on Nov 19, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
Lack of experienced good players.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Nov 19, 2010 9:18 PM EST up reply actions
Well, that remains to be seen, doesn’t it?
I mean, JT will be pretty good in this league, if not spectacular. But the rest . . . well, verdict is still out, I’d say.
Remains to be seen? Even to just say "good"?
I wouldnt go that far. I mean, I could see your response if I had used a term other than “good” (elite, all-star, game-changer, etc) but its to the point where even a word like GOOD is even pushing it in some peoples eyes? Yeesh lol.
I have no problem putting a label of “good” on a number of Isles players, even if they arent all that experienced.
Okposo is good. Moulson is good. JT is good. Bailey is good. MacDonald is good. Marrtin is good. etc. Theres lots of good. There just isnt enough experience as far as Im concerned… especially with a number of the good players (one WITH experience) being on IR.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Nov 19, 2010 9:56 PM EST up reply actions
Well, what’s your threshold for good? Mine is pretty high, I guess.
Nothing that Martin has accomplished in the NHL qualifies him as good by any metric — yet, of course. Same for MacDonald (can’t even stay healthy). And, frankly, same for Bailey.
Even using a lower threshold for “good,” I can only see MM, JT, and KO qualifying.
Also, sad to say, as I just posted in another thread, I don’t see KO ever crossing the good threshold into star. He’s just not much of a goal scorer.
But where did I say they were “accomplished”????
Jeez AP… you are being what I would consider really cynical.
You seem to think that you cant be a “good” player unless you are an accomplished top line goalscorer… and I am saying that I believe- enthusiastically- that you are mistaken.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Nov 19, 2010 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
Fair enough. My view is that you’ve got to accomplish something at the NHL level before you’re considered “good.” I guess others may view it differently.
Not trying to be cynical, but I am honestly worried about whether the talent the team has rounded up so far is really capable of performing at a more competitive level. We’re not seeing much progress.
Dont agree
This thing with Botta shows that Botta didnt spend 20 years working in public relations without knowing full well how to get people on his side and create what he wants to create. Doesnt mean I agree with what they did, but seriously- dont you see thats happening?
Sick of the Mickey Mouse comments, too. The term was applied tot eh dEvils, for different reasons, must we mooch that fromt hem the way THEY mooch our Rangers chants, our old goal song, etc?
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Nov 19, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
Mickey is profitable
this has been a Goofy organization the last few months (without having to go back ten years).
Goofy works better for me
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Nov 19, 2010 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
I think Botta is obviously being a baby about this as well. But revoking access privileges because you don’t like the things the guy is writing about the team is childish and pretty self-defeating.
Mickey mouse organization is a pretty well-established saying that goes beyond a singular reference to the Devils. It sure as hell applies to the Islanders, that’s for sure.
I think Botta is obviously being a baby about this as well. But revoking access privileges because you don’t like the things the guy is writing about the team is childish and pretty self-defeating.
Yeah… Botta is acting as if he’s worked in media relations for decades and knows just how to work it. The Isles see right through it, they know what he is doing, and it ticks them off. But IMO they have reacted in JUST the wrong way by feeding into it with their questionable, petty decision.
If the Isles wanted to “beat” botta at this game, what they really should have done is they should have made “Islanders Authorized” into a full-on Isles blog- with an author and daily coverage. THAT would have been brilliant. And plenty of fans, if they felt like they still had an “in” regarding team info, would not be as… hysterical… in their Botta rally cries.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Nov 19, 2010 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
if you are right...
then snow must show a willingness to share some limelight and actually have another voice in the room. from exits in the front office i think we can assume that a high profile figure is the Least likely to have a shot as long as snow is the gm
by Lakewood Islander on Nov 19, 2010 2:58 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Egggggggggcellent!!!!!!
As far as Snow’s drafts, most of the talent is still in minors, so we wait and see if they step up to NHL caliber play. In a couple of seasons we see if we have a contender, or a team of Tambellini’s, (a good example of a great AHL player but can’t make the jump effectively). As much as we all loathe The Horrible Sub-Human Shoe Salesman, he managed to draft some pretty decent players as well; Luongo, Chara, JP Dumont, Eric Brewer, Connolly, Pyatt, Torres, DP( yes we could of had Heatley or Gaborik, but if DP was healthy, we had a franchise goalie locked up at a relatively cheap 4.5 million per season, then again if Milbury didn’t trade Luongo, we wouldn’t have needed to take DP in the first place). We all know the Sub-Human Shoe Salesman’s problem was trading away all the good stuff for past their prime vets. Somehow feel the need to add that Neil Smith was technically the GM when Okposo, MacDonald, and Joensuu were drafted.
I agree that Snow is getting the most value from low cost FA signings, but as I have mentioned before, getting 4th line cast-offs from other teams to produce 3rd line results doesn’t help in the long-term. You still have a team made up of mostly of 3rd/4th liners and 3rd D-Man parings. You’re just changing the parts every season. Not attracting quality FA’s has to be an organizational fault, which means Wang and Snow are on the Fish-Hook. Streit only signed because he had something to prove to those in Montreal that said it was because he played with Markov that his stats were good. What better place to prove it than Long Island? I believe that Gordon did the best he could with what he was given to work with.
You nailed it when you said,
“For the Islanders to take the next step forward in the rebuilding process they are going to have to take a deep internal organizational look and find out where there have been failures”. Sorry, you gotta look at Snow and Wang, and as they call it out here “The Good-Ole Boy” syndrome
Outstanding work, WebBard!!!!!!!!!!
by FireGarthSnow on Nov 19, 2010 3:10 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Thanks man, I would have considered it a compliment posting something that got you to comment, since I remember you from around the same time I started posting around here. The outstanding work is just icing on the cake.
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Been working a lot, that’s why I haven’t been around much lately. Get in here and there as I can. I still read, just don’t pos,a s much of what I planned on saying has already been said.
Also wanted to add that the Coyotes, with all that is going on in that 3 ring circus owned by the league, attracts better quality FA’s ( not high quality, just better) than the Isles do. If that isn’t a scathing indictment of what other players think of this organization, than I don’t know what is.
by FireGarthSnow on Nov 19, 2010 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
Haha, if that was the case the Coyotes would win The Cup every season, even if The Great One was still GM.
by FireGarthSnow on Nov 19, 2010 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
On the bright side...
at least we’re losing with youth and aren’t the NJ Devils who expected great things this season! =D
Lets hear from Wang
Just about everything has been said in this excellent discussion.
The team is in a major crisis and even the inevitable wins which will occur infrequently will not stop the demise of this franchise. That sounds very negative, but its like an honest doctor telling a very sick patient the truth.
I think Wang needs to host a real press conference with hockey people from thru out the league including the press and league officials present. After CW makes a statement which should include a thorough discussion of how he plans to right the ship and get a new building, then the press could follow up with real hardball qustions.
Bettman said on his radio show he wants to have Wang on soon
Just FYI.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Nov 19, 2010 8:54 PM EST up reply actions
Darcy Regier....
I think I mentioned this on a post long ago….. Darcy Regier should have taken the wheel from Torrey long ago. To hire Maloney was like infecting someone with a virus. For all of you that don’t know Wang’s plan it is very simple. Until he gets a new arena, he will not pay for players. Players will also not come here to play. So then if they won’t come to play then we will draft them. So for the next 5 years or so we will have kids playing and vets that are like old dogs looking for a home. This is the current recipe for disaster. Fans do not show up…….tickets are not sold and revenue is never seen. So Wang feels that since the fans are not showing up and he can’t get an arena deal done because of Nassau politics, he will sit until 2015 and then make a move. In my best opinion he might consider selling because now he is not required to play in Nassau Coliseum or keep the team on LI however the NHL is strongly against up and moving its teams…. according to Bettman. If he keeps his team then where oh where to build a stadium? Its obvious that the Lighthouse project is dead so why bother staying in Nassau? Your guess is as good as mine.
I have been watching this team for a long time and it seems to me that everything that the fans and all of the writers have said are true and yet the team doesn’t want to hear anything from it. We have no press coverage unless someone gets fired or something comes up about moving. Forget T.V. coverage. Radio coverage is terrible if you live out east. What will it take for this franchise to turn around? How many times can you restart the program. I thought that this year we should have made the playoffs and possible move to the second round. Now I feel that we are getting ready for the #1 pick again. I really love hockey and look forward to the season because there is nothing else that defines a NY winter like Islander hockey, but as of late it has been more and more upsetting to watch. Where is our next Torrey?
Until he gets a new arena, he will not pay for players. Players will also not come here to play. So then if they won’t come to play then we will draft them
Matt Moulson: 2.5 Mill, James Wisniewski 3.2 Mill, Mark Streit 4.1 Mill, Mark Eaton 2.5 Mill, Rollie 2.5 MIll
Moulson and Streit are worth that much, but the Ducks will tell you that Wiz is overpaid, and plenty of people will say that Eaton and Rollie are overpaid.
The Islanders also offered the most money to at least Paul Martin duing FA, and the negotiations with Kovy were serious.
They are trying to bring in players, and I haven’t heard of any examples where Wang said No to bringing someone in because of money.
If next offseason the Islanders can’t bring back Moulson, or have issues bringing back Okposo and Bailey, I’ll be worried.
"...my dad taking me to see my two "teams" and me looking up at him after the 6th goal thinking, "What have you done to me?"" - Dom
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
by Mark D on Nov 20, 2010 5:38 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I thought that this year we should have made the playoffs and possible move to the second round.
WOW. You really thought that a rebuild which started in 2008 would be nearly complete by 2010 and the team would already be contenders winning playoff rounds? I can totally understand hoping for it- we all do that- but… you EXPECTED it? Really?
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
Great Writing
Excellent angle to the Islanders woes. I agree 100% with pretty much everything stated. How much would it take to get Scotty Bowman. The cup followed him to Chicago. Hard to say how much influence he actually had with the Hawks (and his son), but that could be what the Islanders need, an advisor/guru/sounding board type like that with a real impressive background. Maybe Jim Devallano? Anyway, super article. If you were half the attention whore Botta seems to be, you would be a star.
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1979-80
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May 24, 1980: Tonelli to Nystrom. At long last, the steady build of the New York Islanders from expansion doormat to surprise semifinalist to annual contender reaches the promised land: Buoyed by a late season trade for Butch Goring that gave the team the depth up the middle GM Bill Torrey had been seeking, the Islanders knock off the Philadelphia Flyers in six games.
The victory justified the faith in coach Al Arbour who guided them from their second season to their first Stanley Cup seven seasons later. The Islanders would not be the first expansion team to win the Stanley Cup, but they would be the only one capable of a dynasty.
1980-81
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May 21, 1981: This time it was much easier. After falling to "only" 91 points in the 1979-80 season, the Islanders returned to their division title tradition, piling up 110 points -- a whole 13 points over second-place Philadelphia.
Between the quarterfinals (where they beat the upstart Oilers in six games) and the finals, the Islanders reeled off eight consecutive wins -- with a four-game sweep of archrival Rangers in between. As they defeated the Minnesota North Stars in five games for their second Cup, their goal difference in the final was a combined +10.
1981-82
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May 16, 1982: Another year, another landslide title. The Islanders won the Patrick Division by a whopping 26 points over the second-place Rangers, and were seven points clear of their nearest competition for the President's Trophy, the still-not-quite-ripe Edmonton Oilers.
A first-round scare against the Pittsburgh Penguins turned in the Isles' favor thanks to John Tonelli's heroics, and a true dynasty was on its way: Past the Rangers in six games, then an eight-game sweep of the Quebec Nordiques and Vancouver Canucks to run away with the Stanley Cup.
1982-83
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May 17, 1983: Not so fast, whipper-snappers. The Edmonton Oilers' steadily rising challenge for league supremacy took them all the way to the finals for the first time, where the New York Islanders summarily dispatched them in a four-game sweep. For the Islanders, the Dynasty was secured. For the Oilers, it was a powerful lesson in where talent ends and the demands of playoff hockey begin.
Four years, four Cups, 16 consecutive playoff series wins (a record that would grow to 19 until the rematch with the Oilers the following year). Mike Bossy scored 60 goals yet again, and Wayne Gretzky became acquainted with Billy Smith's crease.
