Islanders-Flames Rematch: Vengeance time? Not so much.
by Dominik on Sep 19, 2009 7:00 AM EDT
in New York Islanders Previews
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PrintSo here we are at the rematch of Thursday night's I-Don't-Suck-Anymore I'm Back party for Dion Phaneuf Theo Fleury. Shall we see vengeance and bloodlust and all the things dancing through Islanders fans' heads after seeing Kyle Okposo's concussed? No, probably not. (Mind you, the NHL is very concerned about concussions.)
Preseason is irritating for many reasons: It's really condensed, it's rushed, we're supposed to care and pay for tickets but the lineups are unpredictable and coverage of the games is spotty at best. (Last night, one of the post-game boxscores on nhl.com had "Unknown" listed next to a goal scored. Yet preseason matters, baby!)
So tonight's lineups are likely to be completely different, almost unrecognizable from the other night. Thursday was the Flames chance to show off their stars at home. Phaneuf, for example, showed off his ability to deliver a devastating hit, followed by his ability to be a sudden pacifist the rest of the night:
Scott Gordon, by the way, expressed similar sentiments to that of his players the night before. Basically, he felt Phaneuf hit Okposo while KO was in a vulnerable position and should've stepped up when challenged throughout the game.
"The admirable thing would've been to step up," Gordon said. "If you live by the sword, you die by the sword."
Phaneuf lived by the sword, then had Giordano clean the blood off for him. Regardless, even before the hit, it was unlikely Phaneuf and his bodyguards would be in Saskatoon tonight.
Still, can an Islander tough guy and NHL aspirant step up and nail a guy with a flaming 'C' on his chest? Sure. Would it send a message? Yeah ... to the league.
The league is good at pretending nothing happened the first time around. Then when retaliation happens, the league suddenly worries about its WWE reputation and says premeditated retaliation is not acceptable. (But how is it retaliation if nothing ever happened before? Welcome to Colin Lenin's world. They have magic toys there.) If something stupid happens tonight, I fully expect Colin "we take each incident as separate" Campbell to dream up a fascinating narrative to suspend someone for retaliating for something that did not exist, nor will it ever exist.
Oh by the way, if you hadn't heard or somehow didn't assume it, Pascal Morency was indeed suspended for jumping off the bench to go at Phaneuf. This is cut-and-dry. It's in the rulebook. Funny how easy discipline is when it's spelled out in the rulebook. Wish I'd thought of that.
But Eneuf about Phaneuf
Anyway, the Islanders have other stuff to worry about. Like health. Again. There's Okposo's head, Doug Weight and Sean Bergenheim's groins (that sounds awkward yet slightly kinky), and Frans Nielsen's knee, which Monday will receive arthroscopic surgery thanks, I imagine, to the last time an opponent's arm came up on an Islander's head. Four-to-six weeks for Nielsen. A top-six forward here, a top-six forward there, sooner or later you're talking about real injuries.
The regular season starts two weeks from today. Who will be healthy in the Islanders lineup? I almost don't want to think about it. John Tavares isn't supposed to start his rookie season being The Guy. Not just yet.
The groin injuries should be good and ready by then, but groins are as wonky as two-year-olds' tempers. So don't worry about not having a video feed for tonight's game. At the rate the Islanders sick bin is going, you'll see a lot of these guys in October.
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Yeah, every case is separate, but they always give first-time offenders the benefit of the doubt, or so they say. And the superstars, of course, get nothing. They had no problem giving Brashear six games in the playoffs last year, but Malkin didn’t get anything for instigating a fight at the end of a playoff game. Typical NHL. Teams like the Islanders will ALWAYS get the short end of the stick as long as they suck, because in the grand scheme of things, suspending their name players won’t affect anything.
I am hoping that the Isles do NOT try to “get revenge” tonight. My thought is that revenge is a way of losing. The best revenge is living well, as demonstrated by how unhappy my ex-wife is when she sees my new wife.
Live long and prosper…
Live to play another day…
uh… well I’m sure there are at least a hundred other cliches that can fit here.
SHOOOOOOOT IT!!!! Anon
by burpchelischili on Sep 19, 2009 10:57 AM EDT reply actions
at least a hundred other cliches that can fit here.
War, what is it good for?
Get busy livin’ or get busy dyin’?
This aggression will not stand, man?
I’ve always been a fan of revenge via absolutely laying someone out in an absolutely legal way. You can pull an Ulf, or a Graves, or a Messier and knee or slash someone out of the lineup, but there’s a certain beauty and clean justification in payback within the laws of the game.
(That goes for whether or not the initial action was legal or not, by the way, lest we re-open the Phaneuf hit debate in another thread.)
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
I don't even see where there's any debate on this.
Anyone who clearly watches that tape can plainly see that hit was all elbow to the head.
I’ve even seen some folks claim the guy never left his feet. Funny to even hear this from the league (Just like Mottau never made contact with Neilsen’s head).
Oh well, and so it goes in this crazy world. Payback would be nice tonight. Although one thing really bugs me here. I wonder how much the “whoa is me” mentality of Islanders fans towards the team results in the league not doing anything. Sometimes I wonder if these suspensions that are handed out are nothing more than PR stunts.
I alwayws had issues with a lot of my fellow Isles fans outlook that anything bad that happens to this team is without question their fault. Morrencey leaving the bench, Simons stick swing (never mind that Hollweg rang his bell before that on a dirty hit), Pock’s elbow, Milbury days, etc.
Look at the fans in the rest of the league that stand up for their guy? Most fans of our team it’s like pulling teeth even when it’s clearly not the fault of the Islanders in question. On the Simon stick swing, Hollweg should have gotten time there for hitting Simon on the numbers. Had the Refs whistled that play I doubt no uglyness ensues.
I even recall the Buffalo playoff series where we had three guys hit from behind (Blake wound up going to the dressing room) and we got one penalty out of all em. Campolli got run from behind right in front of the ref.
The league screws this crap up and wonders why the fans get upset and throws things. If I paid 60 bucks a ticket and witnessed that, I don’t know if I’d throw stuff, but I’d be damned pissed.
Anyone wanna argue that if Iginla, Crosby, Malkin, Alfredson etc got hit like that we’d even be debating a suspension at this point?
Interesting question, regarding Islanders’ fan self-defeatism; I think there’s merit to that. Also, I think there’s no question the league would find reason to suspend if it was a superstar victim on a visible team. No question. In fact, had it been Tavares even, they might have taken a longer look.
On the debate (and I don’t want to repeat it here, but…) I watch the video, I know what I think I saw. But it is a tough clip to get frame-by-frame and I feel like some people are probably watching one of the feeds that jerks from arm-in to post-impact. Or something. (When I first watched the replay, I didn’t see the elbow because my YouTube feed was skipping.) But people I trust differ on whether he jumped (I think this is the shakiest claim, though I think the way Phaneuf spills afterward lends credence to him at minimum not skating through his check but rather letting himself “explode” up and into a player) and others differ on whether it was an elbow.
I know how I see it after countless viewings, but I can’t claim it’s the clearest case we’ve ever seen, particularly with just one angle. I will note that the two main radio hosts on the NHL’s XM station (forget their names) pretty much said exactly what I said about the hit. And they’re Canadian. And they like their share of violence in the game. So I’m not questioning my sanity. (Or my testosterone level, which my wife claims is pretty high.)
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
(and now that I look at it a few MORE times, I don’t think the jump is a shaky claim after all. That’s why his feet go out from under him: He’s thrown all his weight upward into a launch. Stevens, it has been noted, always remained on his two feet. He also didn’t jump.)
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
Actually mark off March 25 on your calendar. Dion should get an interesting reception in Uniondale. I wanna compare it to Rocker, but—given Dion’s stature—its more like Clemens. I used to root for the Yankees in the playoffs in the ‘70s and ’90s. Then came Clemens-Piazza and it wasn’t so much what Clemens did as the way Yankee fans acted afterwards. They became the enemy after that. Like with the Leafs after the Tucker-Peca and Roberts-Jonsson nonsense. The Flames are now the enemy.
If as we expect, the Isles are clearly headed toward the lottery again in late March and we have sold off all of our UFA vets, the game against Calgary was probably going to be a nothing game that only a few guys competing for roster spots would get up for.
That’s all changed. For the Isles and their fans, March 25, 2010 will be the equivalent of Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals. All of the players mentioned below will be brought up and every player will be flying. The Coliseum will be packed and the fans will be sky high. With any luck, we will pin a regulation loss on them and it will cost them a playoff spot. That’s what I call hockey karma.
Phaneuf ju gave the Isles an excuse to audition goons. Here's who'e in the line up
Joel Rechlicz, Micheal Haley, Matt Martin, Jeremy Reich, Nate Thompson and Tim Jackman.
Beatings are going to be handed out tonight and these guys are fighting for a job.
Tune in and be there on time. It’s gonna get bloody. Looks to me like Gordon is using this to force Calgary to play Phaneuf so they get it over with.
Tavares will not be playing tonight.
Stay tuned.
Yep, nice lineup.
This was fun, too (Nate Thompson to Botta):
If you’re going to hit guys the way Phaneuf went after Kyle, you’d like to think he would stand up for himself. … Nothing needs to be said. Everyone knows what happened. Look, no one’s going to do anything stupid tonight. That would not be worth it. But we will play hard and we will stick up for each other.
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
If there's a postive to this episode hopefully that will be it
I’m sick of our guys gettin run and the lack of response.
I wanted to strangle the guys going to the bench the other night after Okposo got laid out. Their first priority was going after Phaneuf and anything with a flaming C.
That hit happened on their watch. It’s their responsibility to take care of business. I wonder how Arbour would handle a team this pacifist over the years?
I really thought the guys changing lines missed what happened, whereas the guys on the bench were chomping at the bit to get out there because it happened right in front of them. I don’t know. I’d have to go back and check who was on the ice doing what.
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
Dont forget
Westgarth on defense I like to see this guy have a go tonit
PS – is this game going to be streamed tonite if yes can someone link it up greatly apprecieted, by the thanks to whoever linked it last game
I don't see anything on ATDHE
but that can change any moment.
MyP2P might have something but I haven’t looked.
I haven’t seen anything even from the Flames side.
By the way, sincere thanks for the link last time and in the future, and I “officially” do not endorse such links. ;)
How bad will it suck if there’s some sort of brawl and we don’t even have video?
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
LOL I usually don't like posting those
but it’s preseason and it’s the arena feed. I don’t think a lot of folks are gonna make a stink. Regular season I don’t share them cause I like to keep em as quiet as possible.
I hate when people share em public message boards bacause it does attract a lot of attention. Personally I don’t see the beef with MLB and the NHL, it’s not like the video is great quality or anything.
I allegedly lived off them last year for day games. I don’t see the problem either, since they’re so crappy, but I know they started going after outlets that promoted them, so if I’m aware of them [wink cough] here, I’m obliged to do my best to uhhh…do something or other. Sometimes I don’t “see” them until after the game’s over, though. :)
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
Scott Gordon’s statement would be justified if, say, the hit were actually dirty, but because it wasn’t according to the rules that currently what is considered legal and illegal contact between opposing players, there really was no reason for Phaneuf to drop the gloves. He would be stupid to risk injuring himself by fighting over what the NHL rulebook defines as a clean shoulder check.
And because I am unfamiliar with the majority of the Islanders roster, who exactly on that time is big enough, bad enough and smart enough to ‘retaliate’ without getting themselves suspended indefinitely like Pascal Morency, who either didn’t know that leaving the bench to initiate or join a fight was a match penalty and a suspendable offense or was too foolish to care.
To be quite honest, this is the reason I thought the Islanders would have been better off taking Viktor Hedman over Tavares because Hedman would give them some of the snarl that they so obviously lack. While Tavares may make the Islanders more difficult to play against as an additional offensive threat, Hedman would have made them a more difficult team to play against in terms of not only toughness but physical intimidation.
If I were an Islanders fan, I would have been upset when Garth Snow drafted Tavares over Hedman because in choosing a flashy goal-scoring forward over a defenseman that could serve as the cornerstone on which to build a team the Islanders management basically said that they’re more interested in the ticket sales, merchandising and media coverage that would undoubtedly come along with drafting Tavares than laying a foundation that will win the team another Stanley Cup. I don’t doubt Tavares’ player, just as I don’t dispute the fact that offense is generally considered ‘more fun’ to watch. But none of that wins championships. Defense does.
I don’t pretend to be an expert on the NHL rulebook. Is it technically legal to lay for somebody who is being checked off the puck from behind and, while he is still recovering from that check, jump up and drill him in the head with your shoulder? Maybe it is. In my opinion, even if it is legal according to the NHL, it is a cheap dirty thing to do.
I would like for the Islanders to have a player like Byfuglien who has hockey talent but also can intimidate opposing players just by his presence as Clarkie used to do. Maybe Morency’s move wasn’t smart but I like the spirit. It would have been a disgrace if the Islanders had not responded as the 2000 Mets did not when Clemens beaned Piazza.
I originally had favored Big Victor as well. He is an incredible talent and athlete and his size is impressive. Even I have to admit, however, that “snarl” is not a quality that he has been known to possess. In fact, the frequent comparisons with Pronger owing to size and skill always ended with the caveat that he lacked Pronger’s nastiness. Many were surprised when the Isles picked De Haan with their second first round pick as it was expected by some that they would use that pick to get Zach Kassian who would offer the size and toughness many think they lack. In fairness, it should be pointed out that his character has been questioned and that is a big consideration for the Isles management (as it should be). It also bears pointing out that the Sabres have sent him back to the juniors and De Haan is still with the team.
I am also a big advocate of defense, but the new NHL does make it a bit easier on the offense. You do need several really potent top six forwards to have a championship caliber team. You also need one or two elite defenders IMHO. The Pens are the exception and even they had a few pretty good defenders in Gonchar and Gill. I would like the Islanders to get Fowler with their #1 pick this year, but if they get the #1 overall pick again, Taylor Hall will be pretty hard to turn down especially since he was Josh Bailey’s linemate.
cott Gordon’s statement would be justified if, say, the hit were actually dirty, but because it wasn’t according to the rules that currently what is considered legal and illegal contact between opposing players, there really was no reason for Phaneuf to drop the gloves. He would be stupid to risk injuring himself by fighting over what the NHL rulebook defines as a clean shoulder check.
Except it was illegal, it’s as egregious an example of charging as you’ll see in the NHL. And Dom has convinced me, he also led with his elbow.
The 2009-10 Colorado Avalanche: Aiming for the Charity Point
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Sep 20, 2009 2:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Charging can only be called when the checker takes more than two long strides leading up to the hit and leaves his feet before impact, jumping up into the hit (if you want to see a good example of charging, just look up every hit Alexander Ovechkin has ever made in his entire NHL career that have all gone unpenalized). Phaneuf didn’t run into the hit and only left his feet after he made contact, not before, the impact of the hit sending him flying through the air, so charging doesn’t apply here.
As for the elbow thing, I think Phaneuf intended to hit Okposo with his shoulder, but because Okposo was being back-checked from behind he leaned forward slightly, lowering his head and catching Phaneuf’s upper arm instead. If you want to see an example of elbowing, look up pretty much ever hit Chris Pronger has ever made or Tie Domi’s flying elbow to the head of Scott Niedermayer in Round 2 of the ‘01 playoffs. Those are elbows. This wasn’t.
I think Phaneuf intended to hit Okposo with his shoulder, but because Okposo was being back-checked from behind he leaned forward slightly, lowering his head and catching Phaneuf’s upper arm instead.
But regardless of intention, the hitter is responsible for what part of his body makes contact with the other player. That’s the tough part about hitting, and why throwing yourself into someone else — with such little control that you end up hurling backwards and landing on your rear — is such a challenging and dangerous thing. It’s not a task for any old meathead. Why would Okposo be responsible for his head being down at the last moment when being hit from behind, yet Phaneuf not be responsible for his arm hitting a player in the head?
As noted multiple times, Scott Stevens generally remained on his own two feet throughout and following his hits. Phaneuf did not. Why is that? I’d say because Stevens was in control, Phaneuf was not.
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
there really was no reason for Phaneuf to drop the gloves.
Yeah, because there’s no history at all of NHL players calling each other to account when they take predatory runs at a vulnerable player…none at all.
this is the reason I thought the Islanders would have been better off taking Viktor Hedman over Tavares because Hedman would give them some of the snarl that they so obviously lack.
Right. If only Hedman had been in the lineup, none of this would have happened. And Hedman — who apparently has become Chris Pronger overnight — might’ve even beaten Phaneuf’s ass just for the hell of it. Brilliant!
by choosing a flashy goal-scoring forward over a defenseman that could serve as the cornerstone on which to build a team the Islanders management basically said that they’re more interested in the ticket sales, merchandising and media coverage that would undoubtedly come along with drafting Tavares than laying a foundation that will win the team another Stanley Cup.
Yeah, that’s exactly what happened. Nothing about a continent-wide debate over who’s actually better player, or who’s actually going to make a better impact for a rebuilding franchise. And we all know that players at 18 are perfectly predictable and easy to project. Nope, there was no debate over who was the better choice at all.
But none of that wins championships. Defense does.
Yeah. Just like Pittsburgh.
Look, I see what you’re saying, but you’re using a variety of conditionals and debatable hypotheticals to fit your own narrative. The Islanders, if you haven’t noticed, need everything. Championship teams also need everything. Even … wait for it … offense! I’m not going to pretend to know which 18-year-old will prove to be a key cog in a championship first; I will recognize that if it’s even close, then the Islanders might go with who they’re more convinced can make an impact now, because they’re sort of a franchise that needs to ensure their viability first.
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
I would qualify the statement that the Isles need everything. I would say that they need more elite talent. Garth has done a good job of getting two top 2 centers to compliment our two top 2 RWs. He has picked defenders in DeHaan, Ness, and maybe Hamonic that will hopefully develop into elite defenders. And he has made us solid in net for years to come. We also have an abundance of third and fourth line forwards. We need 1-2 elite LWs and 1-2 elite defenders and we are good. Garth should be able to do most of that by next fall.
And Dion has admitted that he knew the Isles would come after him after he made the hit…so there can be only ONE reason for him to skate away afterwards. That’s OK. March 25th is coming…and we will have a special Dion Phaneuf night at the Coliseum!!!
Yeah, because there’s no history at all of NHL players calling each other to account when they take predatory runs at a vulnerable player…none at all.
Just because there is a history of NHL players calling opponents out after a clean hit, doesn’t mean that said opponent is obligated to fight. There’s also a history in hockey of bench clearing brawls, but because of adjustments to the rulebook (for example, making it illegal for a player to leave the bench to either initiate or join a fight already taking place on the ice, etc).
Yeah. Just like Pittsburgh.
Did you even watch the last two games of the Stanley Cup Final? If I recall correctly, the final score in Games 6 & 7 was 2-1 in favour of the Penguins, and both Penguins goals scored in the seventh game were scored not by Sidney Crosby or Evgeni Malkin, two of the top three goal scorers in the NHL, but Max Talbot, a third-line energy guy. Don’t kid yourself. Sidney Crosby (and Evgeni Malkin for that matter) may have put together two of the best offensive point totals in recent playoff history, and Crosby did distinguish himself as the leader the Penguins ownership/management had hoped he would become when they made him the youngest player in the history of the NHL to wear the captain’s ‘C,’ but they most certainly did not win the Stanley Cup on their offensive prowess alone. Jordan Staal, Matt Cooke and Tyler Kennedy played well together defensively on the third line, regardless of the criticism they recieved for failing to contribute much offensively, and the waiver wire acquisition Craig Adams lived up to his billing as a solid defensive forward and penalty killer. Hal Gill and Rob Scuderi also distinguished themselves as the best defensive defensemen tandem of the playoffs (who could possibly forget Scuderi’s goal line stand in the Final?) and if it were not for Marc-Andre Fleury’s superman save on Niklas Lidstrom with just seconds remaining on the clock to preserve the Penguins one-goal lead, that game could have had a very different outcome.
In the Stanley Cup Playoffs, it’s not always the goals you score, but the ones that you prevent that proves the difference between victory and defeat. I agree that Islanders have a lot of rebuilding to do before they become a viable team again. The only reason I suggested that Hedman would have been a better choice that Tavares was because I am a Devils fan and subscribe to the theory that a winning team is built from the goalcrease and the blueline out, not the other way around. That is just my personal opinion, though I agree that it is rather early to predict the trajectory of the careers of two eighteen-year-olds. The only point I was trying to make is that a defenseman with the size of Hedman that is reported to have a solid defensive game in addition to some offensive upside don’t exactly come around very often and can be a value building block in the creation of a winning team (kind of like what Scott Niedermayer was to the Devils – Niedermayer, Scott Stevens and Brodeur were the foundation the Devils built each of their championship-winning teams on).
Like you, I’m annoyed by the tendency to fight after clean hits. I just don’t agree with you that this was clean nor legal — and clearly most of the Islanders players on the ice at the time share that view. Bench-clearing brawls are not at issue here: Phaneuf makes dangerous hits and he fights — neither is out of the ordinary for him; so if he’s worried about injuries in a preseason game, he might refrain from recklessly launching his body (and arm) into the head of an opponent during that same game in an awkward hit that could have hurt him as well as Okposo.
Yes, I saw the Cup finals. Seen everyone for the last 25+ years. The Pens wouldn’t have gotten there without elite offensive talent — nor would the Red Wings, Ducks and Canes before them.
Sorry for jumping on you: I actually share your respect for the importance of a defensive foundation, and cited such concerns repeatedly in the whole Tavares v. Hedman debate. But I’m going to be a little touchy when you connect that entirely different matter to the Okposo hit, and you go advising what Islanders fans should really be upset over (Snow’s draft decision, vs. the matter of Phaneuf’s legality and taste in preseason) when our best scorer from last season has just been laid out in a situation that was not entirely of his own making.
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
But Dom, fish swim forward, therefore you have to have great forwards to win…
And Spiders spin webs, therefore the net minder is the most important guy on the ice…
Hey, this is kind of fun!
SHOOOOOOOT IT!!!! Anon
by burpchelischili on Sep 20, 2009 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
The team that wins wants it more.
“Let’s really try to win this one.”
“That man traveled 15 hours by bus to say that?”
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
reading more
Don’t kid yourself. Sidney Crosby (and Evgeni Malkin for that matter) may have put together two of the best offensive point totals in recent playoff history, and Crosby did distinguish himself as the leader the Penguins ownership/management had hoped he would become when they made him the youngest player in the history of the NHL to wear the captain’s ‘C,’ but they most certainly did not win the Stanley Cup on their offensive prowess alone.
Christ, who the hell is kidding themselves? Where did I ever imply that a team won on offense alone? By your selective logic, you could say the Pens won because of
Marc-Andre Fleury’s superman save on Niklas Lidstrom with just seconds remaining on the clock
… and therefore a Hall of Fame defenseman like Lidstrom must not be enough to get it done. And the Pens didn’t need Crosby and Malkin’s unreal playoffs because they had Max Talbot to score goals.
Teams need a whole, whole lot of goaltending, defense and offense to accomplish anything — unless, perhaps, they’re practicing an obstruction trap that NHL rule enforcement no longer allows. A cliche like “none of that wins championships. Defense does.” is just myopic broadcaster’s gloss.
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
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Thu 02/16 | 8:00 PM EST |
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Montreal
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New York Rangers
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55 | 37 | 13 | 5 | 79 |
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56 | 31 | 18 | 7 | 69 |
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56 | 32 | 19 | 5 | 69 |
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56 | 24 | 24 | 8 | 56 |
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