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Links: Okposo hit reactions from players, fans

Reactions to last night's hit run the predictable spectrum. Lots of Isles fans want Dion Phaneuf's head. Some Flames fans say it was a glorious hit, some say it was technically legal but over-the-top for preseason. Outside those with rooting interests, some just hate Phaneuf, and some found it so unnecessary for a veteran who isn't fighting for his job in training camp. There is also the element who worry that every time we talk about this, we're "taking hitting out of the game" -- which, if you have more than a 5-second attention span, you know is not the case. People can't even agree why it was legal or illegal -- which is par for just about every NHL debate.

Me? I said my bit in the moment, so I'll rest on this: If a forward is responsible for keeping his head up and reacting to a third checker at the last second -- and he absolutely is -- that checker is also responsible for the movements of his own body, up to and including whether his arm flies away from his core and into the head of the opponent. Consider this: Great hitters deliver legal hits and end up still standing on their own two feet (hello, Scott. Hi, Denis). Phaneuf ended up on his ass.

Beyond the actual contact, though, there is something about our game and the care needed at today's increased speed, strength and size. I've always believed this but seldom see discussion of the nuances: There's a difference between a puck-carrier steaming solo over the blueline with his head down, and a player who just gained the puck in transition being funneled by two opponents into a predatory collision with a third.

Links to other reactions to the hit -- and some other news -- after the jump:

Star-divide

Other News of the Day

Phaneuf Nicht

Islanders player reactions: Quoth Martin Biron: "If you're going to play that way, you have to respond when challenged."

More on Phaneuf's declining to fight from Scott Gordon and Matt Martin via the Calgary Herald.

The players and many fans thought Phaneuf left his feet for the hit -- based on replay, I do not, but I know why they did think that in the moment: Because Phaneuf ends up on his ass and as out of the play as anyone afterward. Which tells me something about his hit; he wasn't prepared to take a man off the puck and then tend his position. Rather he was prepared to leave his position to try to destroy someone, consequences be damned.

Islanders Outsider: "Phaneuf is simply the next in a too-long line of guys who has no respect for the amount of damage he can inflict on another human being. You can't let up in the heat of the action? Of course you can, especially in an early preseason game. Phaneuf could have played the body any number of ways without taking the livelihood of a promising young player in his hands."

[Update] Doug's version over at IslesOfficial'sOutlook: "Phaneuf keeps his elbow IN, until the force of the impact drives his arm up and out. This was a shoulder check with am elbow follow through. Not uncommon but certainly not warranted in open-ice. What irks me about the hit is the total irrelevance to the play as a whole and the fact that he does LEAVE HIS FEET to deliver the hit."

Okposo Net: Knows not to expect a suspension.

Dee goes through a range of post-hit emotions and past incidents that immediately came to mind.

Phaneuf Ja/Meh

[Update] The Rivalry: An Islanders fan who says it sucks, but it was a clean hit. He also points out the interesting change of tune from Brent Sutter when it's not his son being hit.

The AOL Fanhouse staff debated whether this kind of hit -- legal or not -- belongs in the preseason. Also at Fanhouse: Chris Botta says Phaneuf should answer the call Saturday, but probably won't. Won't "be in the lineup," I mean.

Greg Wyshynski at Puck Daddy calls it legal, clean and entirely appropriate for a preseason game. And the elbow? "I don't believe he did intentionally, but that's not to say his elbow didn't make contact." But if his elbow did make contact, it's illegal. Period. Checkers are every bit as responsible for their bodily actions as the recipients who are actually playing the puck (the puck, that little item that is even more central to this game than Phaneuf's headhunting). If a player can't deliver a wreckless/awkward hit without controlling every part of his body, he's probably not good enough to be making that hit in that situation.

Matchsticks and Gasoline: "Hits like that will always make the perpetrator look like they've jumped into it, so I'll let others do the Zapruder thing if they wish, but I wasn't crazy about it. I know it's a hard man's game and all, but I never wish a potential concussion on anyone."

Finally, the most concise statement for the defense of Phaneuf: Two-Line Pass rants to justify the hit, focusing on whether he left his feet (but ignoring the possibility of the elbow). He also uses the timeless simplifications "Keep your head up" and "This is hockey, which, last I checked, is a contact sport." A truly wonderful cliche, but if life were really that simple, the rulebook's section outlining "Checking" would just read: "Contact."

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Gordon needs to man up for once and send a strong message

All I know Dom is Gordon better have Witt, Sutton, Jackman, Reich, Reichlitz, Martin, and any other big body auditioning for the enforcer role in the lineup Saturday. Doesn’t matter if they lose 22-0 giving up all power play goals. A “Slap Shot” style retaliation is absolutely necessary here. Otherwise, the rest of the league will be thinking it’s OK to run Tavares like this. The response last night during the rest of the was inadequate( I know we disagree here) at best.

“Oh no, not Oglethorpe”

by FireGarthSnow on Sep 18, 2009 12:52 PM EDT reply actions  

From the Herald link above:

Islanders coach Scott Gordon was none too pleased by Phaneuf’s post-fight actions, either.

“Well, our guys did challenge him,” Gordon said. “If you’re going to do that, you should stick up for yourself. That’s all I’m going to say on it.”

What do you want to bet the Isles receive a stern warning from Mr. Campbell?

Excellent use of “Slapshot,” by the way.

Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.

by Dominik on Sep 18, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yup, and a simialar hit will be delivered soon to Crosby or something and Campbell will lower the boom on the guy

He’ll make proclamations to the press that the NHL is not going to tolerate this anymore blah blah blah.

by Chickendirt on Sep 18, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Screw Campbell

He’s more of a problem with his inconsistent interpretation of the rules.
As far as what Gordon, the Isles had a perfect opportunity late in the game as 2 Islanders were right next to Phaneuf along the boards. But they skated away instead. Yes, it was a penalty kill, but who cares? The game didn’t mean anything.

by FireGarthSnow on Sep 18, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Overall, I think the bottom line here is that someone on this team is going to have to step up and establish themselves

as a no nonsense heavy wieght. For years we’ve been getting jacked by boarderline hits like this with very little response. Go back to our last playoff appearance against Buffalo when Blake got jacked in the head, Yashin and Campolli whacked from behind in the same game.

There is an opening here for the Wrecker and Martin to establish themselves. Martin could wind up being one of those Milan Lucic type players for us.

This should extend into our next game with Calgary despite Campbell’s warnings. If it means fines and suspensions then so be it. Gordon needs to send a message to the league that we are not gonna take this nonsense lightly.

by Chickendirt on Sep 18, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think there is a lot of fear in regards to the phyicality getting taken out of the game

That’s why I don’t think many writers are gonna call that hit dirty or acknowledge that it was. They may hint at it (and yes, they are ignoring the elbow) but that’s about it.

Now imagine someone throwing a hit like that on Crosby, Malkin or Oveechkin? Dude is probably gonna get some time and everyone is probably gonna agree that what Phaneuf did on this hit is clearly head hunting. That’s the shame in this game.

Also, the physicality has already been taken out of the game. It’s called the Insitigater. A complete bullshit penalty they put into the game that has now encouraged head hunting and dirty play. I am fortunate enough to have watched the game when it had guys that knew how to throw open ice hits and didn’t run when challenged.

Kasparitas was known for throwing a few borderline hits and even some dirty ones. Yet, for all the years I’ve watched him

1) I don’t recall ever seeing him run from a challenger.

2) If he saw a guy get pushed into the position of Okposo he never went out of his way to take their head off with his elbow.

I recall that guy getting Messier when he was in a vluberable position MANY TIMES. Not just once. He never rail roaded him and took some off his hits (I recall a few where he sent Mess head over heels AND LOWERED HIM TO GROUND TO KEEP THE GUY FROM CRACKING HIS SKULL). Of course he’s follow up with a humilating face wash or something.

by Chickendirt on Sep 18, 2009 1:05 PM EDT reply actions  

A Calgary view

Calgarypuck thread

Just for an opposite viewpoint.

The sad part of this is how you guys are coming off like Canuck fans in 2004. In the end, Phaneuf did answer for the hit. Morrency came off the bench, challenged him, and after some of the other players got out of the way, they tussled. End result: Phaneuf easily threw him down. Guess what? That was your chance. You called, he answered, its done. You don’t get to create a gauntlet for Phaneuf to run through because you are pissed that Okposo got clobbered.

I don’t blame the fans for being upset. We all are when our guy gets nailed, and we all want to see our team come out on top. Fans will be fans. But I expect a lot more maturity out of the players on Saturday, whether or not Phaneuf dresses – and for the record, I expect that he wont.

by Resolute on Sep 18, 2009 1:20 PM EDT reply actions  

I hate to break it to ya

If one of our guys threw an elbow like that at another player the fans and the press here would not go lightly on the subject. You can’t accuse us of being homers given the Simon incidentS and Pock’s hit from last year.

Islanders fans as a whole are generally pretty objective when it comes to this stuff. Sometimes to our own demise. I think most of us are willing to give another player room for reasonable doubt on a hit like that than one of our own.

We don’t really need “another perspective” whish is really just a bunch of homer Calgary fans (who can be just as big a homers as those in Vancouver).

Even Tuckers low ball hit on Peca a few years ago, at least Tucker didn’t run.

by Chickendirt on Sep 18, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the opposing view. I do not consider Phaneuf backing off while Giordano, another teammate, and a linesman all get in the way before they had a chance to tussle as him answering for it. His answer was more like, “I’ll deal with you once you’ve gotten through two others and I’m good and ready.” Obviously the Isles players didn’t see it that way either.

The way Phaneuf plays with disregard for others’ health — yeah, that’s part of the game, etc. — you’d think he’d have been happy to take on another challenge that wasn’t undermined by the chaos at that moment. As it was, he comes off pretty spineless, given the context.

But “the code” wouldn’t be the code if there weren’t 10,000 different interpretations of it.

Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.

by Dominik on Sep 18, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

And likewise, there will be 10,000 views on how the aftermath turned out. Giordano flying in was interesting, as was Langkow. Players on both sides stood up for their teammates, which is good. Personally, I doubt that Phaneuf would have backed off if Gio hadn’t gotten there first. He would have stood up to Morrency, as he did when the latter finally got through to him.

by Resolute on Sep 18, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

We didn't need to create a gauntlet

Giordano already did that , as well as the rest of the Flames

by FireGarthSnow on Sep 18, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Keep your head up Saturday night Iginla, Phaneuf, Backlund. dirty (but legal) hit from someone who is making his name for things like this.

by double W on Sep 18, 2009 2:00 PM EDT reply actions  

Spoken like a true coward.

by Resolute on Sep 18, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ya know what I find entertaining about your posts?

They are largely inconsistent.

Whats the difference between warning a player to keep their head up vs justifying an elbow to the head cause a play had his head down?

You’re all over the place on this one.

So are the people who admit Okposo caught Phaneuf’s elbow and blame Okposo for having his head down (Rules state that there is no excuse for an elbow to the head just as with a stick to the head).

by Chickendirt on Sep 18, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Phanuef will not be in the lineup for Tomorrow night's game

Hmmmm.

Just read this on the HFBoards. Post claims it’s confirmed by their beat writer and radio reports.

This could mean either two things;

League is reviewing the hit and posible suspension

Campbell has issued warnings or the Flames don’t want the incident to carry over.

by Chickendirt on Sep 18, 2009 2:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Or it could mean the Flames don’t find any reason to risk a key player so some punk in orange an opportunity to make a name for himself.

Or, it could simply mean the Flames never had any intention of dressing him for that game.

The league won’t review the hit. Nothing to review.

by Resolute on Sep 18, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just found out they weren't dressing him anyways

Guy who put the post up just edited it to include that.

Keep in mind, it’s a long season. I’m certain that some point another hit like this is going to be delivered as they seem spread out in this league. When the Flames number comes up I’ll keep this convo in mind.

You’re argument in this matter lacks consistency as has been noted above. I’m not going to debate this with you any further but just file it away for later. You are a knee jerk reactionary so it will be interesting to watch you sing a different tune later in the season.

I’ll be happy to point it out to you later.

by Chickendirt on Sep 18, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

“You are a knee jerk reactionary”. Funny thing is, I think that describes you perfectly.

And yes, it is a long season, and yes, other players will get clocked just as hard, possibly even a Flame. Daymond Langkow got destroyed by a kid in his first NHL game against Washington last year because he was staring at his skates. And you know what? Langkow deserved it. Whatever you want to believe about Phaneuf, there is an onus on all players to be aware of their surroundings. When they lose that awareness, they tend to put themselves in dangerous positions.

I can’t help the fact that you’ve deluded yourself into thinking it was an elbow. You’ve evidently spent every second since that hit trying to convince yourself that just because a kid in orange and blue got crushed, the hit must have been dirty. Well, I hate to break it to you, but the people who make those decisions disagree.

Regardless, the one thing I’m sure we’ll both agree on is the fact that we are happy Okposo wasn’t seriously injured, and that he should be fine. Okposo is going to be a great player for you guys, and I do hope he has a monster season in Long Island.

by Resolute on Sep 18, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nope, I watched the tape

Tryt again.

Oh, and if Phaneuf agreed to go with Morrency then why did they not asses Giordano a third man in penalty for his elbow to the side of Morrencey’s head?

You don’t have an explanation for that because what you are repeating about those events simplay did not happen. Phaneuf engaged Morrency AFTER the refs got in the middle. Before that he was hiding behind Giordano.

Phaneuf did not man up for that hit at all. It was weak and hiding behind the Refs skirts like a Sally Ass is twice as weak.

by Chickendirt on Sep 18, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I said Phaneuf was squaring up, expecting the fight. It hadn’t happened yet, and the two players were not engaged. Thus there is no third man in. (Rule 47.16)

by Resolute on Sep 18, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Regardless, the one thing I’m sure we’ll both agree on is the fact that we are happy Okposo wasn’t seriously injured, and that he should be fine. Okposo is going to be a great player for you guys, and I do hope he has a monster season in Long Island.

And consensus is reached! :-) Glad we have it all out of our systems now…

Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.

by Dominik on Sep 18, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is it too late to pull Fritz back from Phoenix? I’d love to see him clobber Phaneuf during the season. Regardless, I’d like to see someone go after him the next time the teams meet — provided that the player can get through Phaneuf’s perimeter of clowns defending him.

by AP77 on Sep 18, 2009 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

And consensus is reached!

Hmm, sounds vaguely familiar. I think you’ve done a pretty good job staying level headed about this, Dom. You know how I feel so I won’t clutter your comments section, but just for the record I want to point out that I’m almost always on the side of allowing more violence and not wanting to take hitting out of the game, but I think this hit was over the line. I’m obviously pretty impartial (Caps fan) so I’m not interpreting this through the lens of a team fan, just a hockey fan.

A man must have a code.

by Rob Parker on Sep 18, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heh, I appreciate the sentiment. And the inspiration for the quote.

Funny thing is, I’m actually in favor of the violent side of the game; I just have this ideal that it be conducted by players who can skate well and control their bodies to the utmost — I figure, it’s the most elite, talented league in the world, so it’s not too much to ask — and have some sense of vulnerability beyond “keep your head up” being the answer to everything. (It’s the answer to most things, but I think people ignore that this game at this speed creates situations where that doesn’t quite cover it, MacAmmond being a prime example).

Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.

by Dominik on Sep 19, 2009 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Daymond Langkow got destroyed by a kid in his first NHL game against Washington last year because he was staring at his skates. And you know what? Langkow deserved it.

There is a huge difference between the two hits. Langkow was floating through the neutral zone not engaged with any other Cap. Okposo was already dealing with 2 Flames. Sloan was playing his side of the ice and you can fairly describe his hit as textbook D. Phaneuf left his position, that’s not good D (but that’s between him and his coach). You’ll also notice that Sloan stood up and fought the first challenger while Phaneuf backed away and let his teammate pick the guy off. The two examples are not analogous.

Here’s the Sloan hit.

A man must have a code.

by Rob Parker on Sep 18, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dominik

thanks for the Scott Stevens montage. I’m still smiling from watching that last hit on 88.

"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"

by jessef on Sep 18, 2009 3:07 PM EDT reply actions  

Heh, I’m still amazed at how well he stayed on his own two feet through every hit. You don’t see that much, whether from Phaneuf last night or Richard Pilon through pretty much his whole career.

Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.

by Dominik on Sep 18, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s also amazing that in half those hits it looks like all he does is plant his feet and lean into the guy. He’s not even using his feet to spring into the guys to generate a ton of force. It’s almost like he just lets the guys run into him and take the brunt of the collision.

A man must have a code.

by Rob Parker on Sep 18, 2009 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I figured I'd throw this in there; McLaren/Zednik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoIlaK5j238

Is this Zednik’s fault because he had his head down?

Only difference in execution is that Mclaren wasn’t square but to justify it you can say Mclaren got em with his shoulder. At least that hit was closer to his shoulder than Pheneuf’s which was a forarm to the head.

by Chickendirt on Sep 18, 2009 3:58 PM EDT reply actions  

McLaren should have been suspended for at least 50 games for that. Disgusting.

by AP77 on Sep 18, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

NHL just reviewed the hit

(Who was saying this would never even go to the league offices).

Again, same crackpot response from the league offices.

by Chickendirt on Sep 18, 2009 4:15 PM EDT reply actions  

C’mon now. The borderline players are always going to be the ones to face the supplemental discipline. I’d like to see Phaneuf pull this shit in an All Star game, then we’ll see what the league reaction is.

A man must have a code.

by Rob Parker on Sep 18, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Indeed. Who would have guessed they would suspend a player for entering the ice surface for the express purpose of engaging in an altercation, exactly as they have every other time its happened since the rule was implemented?

by Resolute on Sep 18, 2009 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, he earned his suspension, no doubt about that.

What is predictable is the league’s continued thunderous silence on hits to the head.

by AP77 on Sep 18, 2009 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

The league really isn’t silent at all. The league judges on intent. Phaneuf did not aim for Okposo’s head, or otherwise try to hit him high, therefore there was neither a penalty nor a suspension. It was a clean, albeit devastating, hit.

by Resolute on Sep 18, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s extraordinarily difficult to take this comment seriously. Notwithstanding that he (a) left his feet to hit Okposo and (b) made contact exclusively with his head, Phaneuf didn’t “intend” to hit him high or in the head?

Well, you’d fit right in at the NHL front office, I’ll tell you that much.

by AP77 on Sep 18, 2009 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’d be right, except that (a) Phaneuf did not leave his feet to hit Okposo, and (b) it is not Phaneuf’s fault Okposo was leaning forward – in part due to being knocked off stride immediately before he got hit.

That a player was unfortunate enough to get hit in the head is not prima facie proof that Phaneuf intended to hit Okposo in the head.

That is the difference.

by Resolute on Sep 19, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

The elbow says it all

So please, just stop giving us Calgary Kool Aid. That hit was a head shot the whole way and you can see Pheneuf adjust to the push the whole way. He delivered that hit to ring Okposo’s bell.

The fans in western Canada have the worst case of blinder syndrome. I don’t think leaving the feet is really that big of a deal but he certainly did cheat with the jump much like a first basemen cheats on the bag. That doesn’t really fool anyone given that he waited for contact to launch himself up (that’s also illegal BTW). Ryan Hollweg is the master at cheating like that when he has a guy with his back turned against the boards.

Watching Phaneufs legs on this hit it’s clear as day that there is flexion and extension.

by Chickendirt on Sep 19, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I obviously think that you’re entirely wrong about (a) and (b) above, but that’s fine, partisans on both sides can have their view of the incident.

But even under your own account, Okposo was leaning forward precisely because he was pushed from behind by another player on the Flames. That makes Phaneuf look even worse — you can’t claim “oh, Okposo should have had his head up” when he was pushed from behind exactly into harm’s way by the Flames.

All of this bullshit moralizing about playing with your head up is revealed for exactly what it is: blame the victim nonsense trying to excuse culpable behavior.

by AP77 on Sep 19, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

The league judges on a lot of things that vary randomly from incident to incident according to star power and Colin Campbell’s whim. Let’s not pretend there is some consistent standard from the league office.

The players wanted a hit-to-the-head rule last season; the league declined. That’s the major reason there’s no suspension here. (Though if it were a star being hit by a grinder, they’d look a little closer at his arm and his intent coming across the ice.)

Whereas the league’s standard is blurry and impossible to pin down on hits, they’re pretty clear on leaving the bench for an altercation, so Morrency was an easy call.

Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.

by Dominik on Sep 19, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Okay, it took me a few days to get around to watching the hit, its obviously a bad combo, a little push from the Flames player right behind Okposo right into the waiting check. Its definitely overboard for the 2nd preseason game.

But can I say that I hope Morency ends up on the team. He reminded me of Rich Pilon after the Hunter incident. One second your watching it, the next theres this body just flying at Hunter like a human cannonball and it was Pilon. As the rest of the bench seemed to have no reaction, Morency seemed to be in midseason form.

by Mark D on Sep 20, 2009 12:23 AM EDT reply actions  

I love the outsiders saying Morency was an idiot for leaving the bench. Um, hello? It’s preseason, his team’s young star just got nailed gratuitously, and he has little shot at an NHL job. His reaction alone just enhanced his resume and rep.

Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.

by Dominik on Sep 20, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Definitely a good point.

SHOOOOOOOT IT!!!! Anon

by burpchelischili on Sep 20, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

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