Puck Prospectus Quarterly Report
So the much "Beloved" (around here at least) Puck Prospectus who predicted that the Islanders would be 30th in the league (currently 14th OV, 7th in conference) has given their quarterly report. Apparently they can't admit mistakes. For the whole article click here.
After starting 0-3-3, the surprising New York Islanders have gone 7-3-4 in their next fourteen games, peaking with a four game winning streak against the Rangers, Capitals, Sabres and Oilers. Matt Moulson (3.4 GVT), Jeff Tambellini (3.0 GVT), Frans Nielsen (2.6 GVT), Andy Sutton (1.9 GVT) and Jack Hillen (1.6 GVT) may be playing over their heads thus far, but that offsets brutal starts by Richard Park (-1.3 GVT), Bruno Gervais (-1.2 GVT), Jon Sim (-1.1 GVT) and Tim Jackman (-0.7 GVT). Number one overall draft pick John Tavares (1.9 GVT) is off to a fine start, tied with Moulson for the Isles’ lead with 14 points, and can be expected to finish the season in the ballpark of a solid 10 GVT.
And their view of the future?
Wrap Up
Expect more of the same for the Devils, Penguins and Flyers; along with the Capitals, they’re good bets to be the best four teams in the East at year's end. The excellent chemistry of the Rangers bodes well for a return trip to the playoffs, in excess of VUKOTA’s projections. Despite playing well recently, look for the Islanders to fade as the season goes along; they’re clearly better than the 30th ranked team, but shouldn’t be expected to have more than an outside shot at a playoff bid unless other Eastern Conference teams falter.
I think the Isles might be able to overtake the Rangers, and maybe even the Flyers. But hey, when your predictions for the season are horribly off (Boston 3rd , Carolina 14th, Minnesota 12th, Florida 13th, Phoenix 28th, Buffalo 18th) you might as well defend them to your last breath of credibility.
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Bahaha!
Swell. Things like “brutal start by Richard Park” make me wonder about the value of turning individual hockey players into value stat widgets — when does it push the bounds of reason? When does it stop telling us anything? (I know statheads will admit that for hockey it’s in its infancy … but in that case, language of certainty probably shouldn’t accompany it.)
I’m not praising Park as some god, but if a number-cruncher thinks his start has been brutal and is a real factor in the Isles not being better, then they don’t fully understand what role(s) he plays. This is where game-by-game assignments get lost in the aggregate numbers.
But here’s what really makes me scratch my head: He’s boiled everyone down to a GVT and uses that to assess where every team is and where they’re headed, then he says:
The excellent chemistry of the Rangers bodes well for a return trip to the playoffs.
The hell? Chemistry?! I must have missed that column. But if we’re going there, how do the Rangers have better chemistry than, well, anyone else?
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
by chemistry, he meant Gaborik, lol
what does GVT mean anyway?
why isn't #16 hanging in the rafters?
I have the same question about GVT. It sounds like the Games Won differential for trades in Baseball.
GVT
He compares it to VORP (value over replacement player) from baseball, and says it’s “Goals Versus Threshold.”: “the value of a player, in goals, above what a replacement player would have contributed.” He appears to have created it so that goalies, defensemen and forwards can all be compared on the same scale.
He uses their “VUKOTA” projection deal at the top, then talks GVT in the individual team writeups, so I don’t know which is fueling the writeups (and it’s not explained, which might be part of the problem).
I haven’t followed the debate/evolution closely, but I’ve read various opinions I respect that think something like GCT is useful and an ideal, but that incarnation is still way short for telling a whole story or without more, accurate data. I don’t know if hockey will ever get there due to its fluidity and lack of one-on-one matchups and defined zones (two keys to baseball being sabermetricized), but me not learn math so good.
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
This reminds me
The last argument I was having with the baseball stat heads. The argument was that a lazy superstar was worth more then a player who hustled and played with heart. I was trying to tell them from my experience, the players who are talented and lazy tend to pad their stats when it doesn’t matter. Meanwhile a player who hustles every game and works for every inch of their stats is going to be much more likely to come through when it matters both.
That’s why the Isles fight for a playoff spot this year, they are definitely gritty and playing with excitement.
in baseball (and probably basketball too), individual skill stands out more than in hockey (or football too) primarily because they can dominate a game from start to finish… complete game shutouts, intentional walks b/c they don’t want hr’s hit…
i prefer hustle guys myself, but you still cannot ignore talent, especially superstar talent, which only a few dozen players typically possess… and the superstars that hustle, well, those usually become the legends or icons of the game
why isn't #16 hanging in the rafters?
Yeah, I think there’s a line in the middle between stats and intangibles/character/whatever, and a lot of proponents of one side or the other tend to disregard the other.
Playoffs are just another example: It’s a small sample, so it can be unfair to judge a guy on a short, intense run when he’s a stellar performer year after year. But when a guy seems to shy away or easily be shutdown once the shift-to-shift intensity goes up, you start to wonder.
Then a guy like Park is hard to evaluate without observing him, because he’s constantly being used in a variety of roles.
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
well, chemistry experiments often blow up, don't they?
I mean there’s chemistry and then there’s chemistry!!!
CHEMISTRY???
What a ridiculous comment.
Chemistry is the very thing they do NOT have, and that is blatantly obvious to even their most devoted of fans, let alone to anyone who knows hockey and has been watching their games.
Lets go Islanders...
by TheMetalChick on Nov 19, 2009 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
On the conclusion
Honestly, aside from the Rangers “chemistry” bit, I’m not bothered by the last part, the wrap-up. It’s fair to say Phi/Pit/Was/NJ should be the class of the East. And that the Islanders are probably just an outside shot to make the playoffs (like any bubble team, really).
I think the issue is, rather than roll these numbers out as they are and saying “here they are,” there’s some expectation to write an authoritative essay on what they all mean. And that’s where it all gets muddled because the numbers don’t necessarily mean what is written about them.
Example: “Jeff Tambellini (3.0 GVT) may be playing over his head.” Well, yes and no: For Tambellini’s small sample, he’s outplayed his history. But even with that, his 3.0 doesn’t mean a lick for the team right now because he’s not even playing, period. So it’s not only a question of whether he can keep up his pace, it’s also a question of how often he’ll even get the opportunity to try.
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
true, there’s an obvious disconnect here, you cannot simply take #‘s as #’s in most sports…
if they want to go crazy with stats, tell them to create a new stat that evaluates fore checks that lead to turnovers/goals because we have guys that don’t make it to the score sheet but have ‘virtual’ assists because they caused the play to develop…
why isn't #16 hanging in the rafters?
create a new stat that evaluates fore checks that lead to turnovers/goals
I love it. We can call it “a Bergenheim”? Or “a Park”?
A big issue is the lack of data. They don’t have data like “forecheck led to goal” so they use aggregates of who’s on the ice for goals/shots for/against, where their shifts begin and end (“zone starts” etc.). And then the stuff at Behind the Net tries to account for quality of teammates/competition, too. I find it illustrative but still awkward because there are so many variables that you almost need a half-season of data to really get an idea — and even then you don’t know who played on a bum knee for 12 games and who was fighting with their wife for a month (or who was playing on a line with such a guy).
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
Forechecks leading to turnovers/goals
I think this is a big reason that two of the bottom-feeders from last year in the Isles and the Avs are doing better than expected – the nebulous ‘effort’ or ‘compete’ levels (obviously with steady goaltending and improved talent also).
It is clear that there are some things that stats can never tell you – Puck Prospectus and the like still have perfected the ability to predict who is going to be better this year than last.
I also wonder how much coaching styles augment statistical changes…
I also wonder how much coaching styles augment statistical changes…
Interesting … I hadn’t thought of that. Lemaire is probably a rising stat tide that lifts all boats.
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
Firstly, Lemaire is like a stats tide that saves his boat but drowns all others due to the boredom which it induces.
Of course, apart from the constant effect of a coaching change due to a style of coaching there is the typical honeymoon period that a new coach has where they over-achieve relative to their prior results (the most prominent example of this last year was the Pens switching from Therrien to Byslma). If the Avs fall off a cliff this year – it could be argued that this is a part of the reason why (I really hope not….but everyone seems to think it is all but certain due to the way they are winning).
In the context of the Isles – look at the start of Scott Gordon tenure. As you stated after 21 games the Isles were at the high point for the season (with 20 pts). This could be why the Isles arguably overachieved to this point last year and why the Isles may not (won’t be definite as I don’t want to jinx this) fall off the cliff this year.
Obviously, as with most issues, there are significant other factors that you simply cannot ignore (injuries the most obvious) – but that’s my rationalisation for why last year was a mirage and this year may not be a mirage.
not convinced that Philly belongs in that group yet although...
Boucher’s performance last night suggests that Philly has an alternative if Emery goes in the tank as I expect. I really do not know what to expect from this team. I’ll know better when we’ve played a few more games against the supposed class of the East.
Stats in general
By the way, I should mention that if anyone is really into doing stats or poring through some of the Behind the Net stuff in general, don’t hesitate to post stuff here.
I enjoy reading that stuff — and I know a lot of people really eat it up — I’m just never on top of it enough to post it regularly (to say nothing of my weak table/html skills).
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
Dom, doesn’t the editor have an auto table feature? I could have sworn I saw one when I was making this post last night.
It does, but it’s not as friendly as I’d like. My biggest challenge is just grabbing the data I want and getting it in Excel and converting it to html without getting distracted by a meeting first.
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
I should probably add that my biggest challenge is laziness/easy distraction (“Oooh look! Ice cream!”), but that’s sort of a given…
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
Sure! Have at it. I’ll try to promote to the center column when it makes sense (I’m always torn … the center column stuff actually moves off the page quicker than FanPosts, which stay high on the right. I love what everyone’s doing with FanPosts lately though. People can start "rec"ing the ones they like and when we get a critical mass, those move up even higher, etc.
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
Umm
They can’t admit mistakes?
First off, we’re only a quarter of the way through the season — far too early to call any full-season projection a mistake.
Second, they plainly said this: “they’re clearly better than the 30th ranked team, but shouldn’t be expected to have more than an outside shot at a playoff bid unless other Eastern Conference teams falter.” Seems like an admission that the dead last projection is unlikely to be accurate.
Finally, you realize that in all substantial likelihood the Islanders are going to finish last in the division, right?
GVT is a developing statistic. It’s nowhere near as accurate or predictive as its baseball counterparts yet, but it’s far better than almost anything else out there.
Also: Richard Park kind of sucks.
I thought Park was just off to a brutal start…
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
Ha. You might think that if you don’t watch any Islanders games, and I doubt that the author of this article does. At the end of the season, Park will probably have 10-12 goals or so like he was predicted to — but he’s certainly not on that pace now, which is the only thing that the stats tell you.
I doubt he does, either — and I’m not even sure he should have to. That’s kind of my main issue with the piece (repeating myself a bit, but oh well):
It’s great to run these numbers, and I personally find them interesting and hope the data keeps improving. It’s miles better than saying “Player X from crappy West Conference team is minus-10, while player Y from great East Conference team is plus-3. Therefore, Player X sucks.” But then there’s a pressure to add commentary about the numbers, and the commentary is where I’ve found some PP stuff to actually undermine itself. The “chemistry” line about the Rangers really threw me — like wait, what are we evaluating here? But I think ultimately it’s more a presentation problem.
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
Yeah, I think you’re right about the presentation.
Come to think of it, I’m not sure if GVT includes +/-, but it shouldn’t. And I doubt that it does based on this article:
http://www.puckprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=64
I’d guess there is some adjusted +/- counting stat. Note that Streit was third in the league in adjusted +/- last year.
Speaking of, I like Gabe/Behind The Net’s Rating that is a relative +/-. It’s based on +/- per 60 minutes of ice time (instead of per game played), and compares that relative to the rest of a player’s teammates, to help mitigate the fact bad teams have bad +/- and vice versa.
Of course, heh, it makes Park look really bad this year. But two columns to the right is a measure of the quality of teammates a guy has been on the ice with (incidentally, Park’s had consistently bad linemates, although I believe both of these figures can swing a lot in only 21 games).
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
If we are selling at deadline...
Richard Park is a player that Garth will probably get half a dozen calls on. As Dom has pointed out, his worth cannot be measured in stats, but a good GM will know it.

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