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Talkin "Loser Points" ('cause some people have it ALL wrong)

After the Islanders went beyond regulation for the 10th time in 20 games, the loser point conversations really started popping up in hockey world. Cue the talk... Whats with these Islanders? The Islanders "don't deserve" to be where they are in the standings! The Islanders have so many "loser points" I can't believe it! [insert team name] would be ahead of them if those darn loser points weren't being handed to them for absolutely nothing! There were some convos going on over at TheNHLArena after the panthers game and on the Islanders board talking about it, and I've seen them plenty of other places as well.

The whole "loser point" concept and the notion that the Isles are somehow "less deserving" than other teams to be sitting right where they are (in a playoff spot for the time being) has annoyed me so much that I thought I'd share how I feel about it here.

Star-divide

First of all, let me make it clear that I do NOT like the current points system. What was so wrong with ties? Ties were perfectly fine for the entire existence of the NHL, and then suddenly in 2005 they were horrible? But, the lack of ties is only one part of the whole problem- the other part of this problem is the mythical yet omnipresent notion of the "loser point".

Since the start of the NHL (and long before that) hockey games were games that you won, you lost, or you tied. Five-minute sudden-death OT was introduced 1983-84... but you still won, lost, or tied. The "loser point" on the other hand has not been around very long at all- it started in 1999-2000.

1999-2000...
-regular season games tied at the end of three periods will result in each team being awarded one point in the standings.
-there will be a five minute sudden death overtime when the score is tied after three periods, but each team will play "four on four", with four skaters and a goaltender.
-a team scoring in overtime will receive one additional point in the standings.


So, you have a tie at the end of regulation- just the way it was before 83-84- and each team gets a tying point. Sounds alright so far, right? But that's where things went awry. In 99-00 they ALSO made up a brand-new magically invented bonus point to bestow upon teams when they win in overtime AFTER after what had been an NHL tie.

And, for a couple of years, that is how it went. Teams could win (2 pts), lose in regulation (0 pts), tie after regulation (1 pt each), tie after OT (1 point each), or win in OT after tying in regulation  (1 brand-new magically-invented bonus point.) Please notice that the brand-new magically invented bonus point (aka "loser point") is actually going to the winner, after both teams play to an NHL tie. That's why they call it the "additional point" here... and it is one of the main reasons that the term "loser point" is such a misnomer.

2005-06...
A shootout is introduced if the game remains tied after the 5 minute overtime.

Ah, the shootout... a skills competition that follows a full 60-minute regulation hockey game and the 5-minute sudden death overtime. (Howie Rose made how he feels regarding the shooutout quite clear right here. And for the record, I pretty much agree with Howie... even if I dont think that ranting about NHL policy when you work for an NHL team is particularly brilliant and I expect we will not see such a rant again.) Once this thing was introduced in 05-06, teams could win in regulation (2 pts), lose in regulation (0 pts), tie after regulation (1 pt each), win after tying in regulation in OT (1 magically-invented bonus point), or "win" in the shootout after tying in regulation AND tying in OT as well (1 magically-invented bonus point).

So where are these mythical "loser points"? Most hockey fans point to the OTL slot for teams and they, "Uh, there they are! Right there!" However, Im contesting that notion right here and now. "Loser points" are points people feel a team did not really earn fairly. What I want to know is, what is "unfair" about a tie at the end of regulation? Nothing, unless you think that every game before the 83-84 season where one team did not score more than the other was "unfair". What IS unfair in my opinion is which particular points people are identifying and calling "loser points" in the NHL.

Let me explain with a specific example: The Islanders @ Panthers game last night. When I was talking to people about the game, many expressed the notion that the Isles were the recipients of a "loser point". However, when you look at exactly what happened in that game, it is simply not true! The Isles played regulation to a tie, then they played OT to a tie, and they got 1 point for the tie. That is the same as it has always been. If the NHLs rules were exactly like they were before shootouts AND before OTLs, like they were 10y ago, the Islanders STILL would have walked away with that exact same one point last night! What's "loser" about that?

So if the Islanders got the one point that teams have ALWAYS received after a tie game, who got the "additional point" or so-called "loser point"? The Panthers did, that's who. They got the "additional point" for winning a skills competition shootout after playing to a tie with the Islanders. But, for some reason, nobody wants to SEE that. Instead, everyone just calls the Isles getting one point for a tie the recipients of a "loser point." And, they act like the Panthers earned 2 points in that game- even though, IF they protest the system so much, it's the very point that the PANTHERS "earned" that is the magically-invented point they should be contesting! The Panthers are the ones who got an invented point last night in what would have been at any other time in history before 2005-2006 an NHL tie.

Why does this mistake happen? I think it is because of the way the points are reported in the NHL. OTL points and SOL points should not be in the same category- even though they are. It cannot be overstated that they are NOT the same thing! In fact, they are the exact opposite. When an OTL point is administered, you could make a case that the team that lost in OT after tying is the recipient of the magically-invented bonus point... IF you reject the notion of a regulation tie. HOWEVER, when it is a SOL point, it is the WINNER who gets the magically-invented bonus point!!! It's not the same team getting the invented point!  Adding to that- if you DO accept the notion of a regulation tie, then it is STILL the WINNER who gets the "additional point"!  OTL points and SOL points are not the same thing- but, they are put into the same category anyway- and it absolutely annoys the snot out of me. In one scenario (2 teams tied and going into OT) the magically-invented bonus point or "additonal point" can indeed be described as a "loser point" if you ignore the circumstances of games before 83-84 and personally insist that a tie can only exist after OT is played. BUT, in ANY other scenario, its the winner who gets this mythical point! In the shootout, the magically-invented bonus point or "additonal point" goes to the team that played to a tie and won NOT a team-oriented hockey game by any reasonable definition, but a skills competition!

I'm not sure what can reasonably be done to solve this problem... I am putting some real thought as to how this can be resolved. I have some ideas, but I have to do stats crunching to see how it plays out. In the meantime, hockey fans are just going to have to continue hearing people state things such as how the Isles supposedly got the "loser point" for playing to what is by anyone's definition a tie hockey game... and, in saying so, implying that the Panthers won a 2 point hockey game when by the objectors' own definitions they really didn't.

For the time being I will end with this- every team in the NHL plays under the same points rules, so every other team is free to avoid losing in regulation, as well. The Isles are where they are in the standings for the exact same reason every other team is where they are in the standings- because of the points they earned under the current rules of the NHL. To separate them out and point to the Isles and NOT to point at the teams who gained magically-invented points from SOWs is both inconsistent and wrong.

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I couldn't agree more......

 - you make a very good (non-loser:) point, Chris; they ARE entirely valid points based upon a tie at the end of regulation, just as it used to be (hadn’t thought of it that way myself, so thanks for the post – makes last night a bit less galling) – anything else is merely a bonus point for the ‘winning’ team and there just ISN’T such a thing as a ‘loser’ point! I SWEAR, this team can’t seem to get no respect from certain quarters…..

by ogam5 on Nov 16, 2009 12:00 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I didnt always look at it like this either, but last season I was really thinking about it. I was just talking about this over on the Arena (where this conversation was inspired and has continued) and it continues to be difficult to explain what I mean. I am being told “but ties dont exist anymore” and Im thinking to myself, define “tie”! Whether you define it as having the same # of goals at the end of regulation or having the same # of goals at the end of OT, that still DOES happen no matter what anyone says!

Lets go Islanders...

by TheMetalChick on Nov 16, 2009 1:36 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow TMC, just reading that thread, you really took on a Herculean task of walking them through it. Have to agree with NYIFC too for marveling at how some people look at a shootout win as 65 minutes of domination.

And the “it’s stupid for a team that loses to get a point” … well I’d buy that if it comes with “it’s stupid for a team that tied for 65 minutes to lose its point thanks to a shootout.”

Now I’m starting to worry that people who didn’t live through regulation ties are growing up thinking the shootout is a proper way to decide a game.

Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.

by Dominik on Nov 16, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

my thought

keep the system as is…except make the OT period 20 minutes. That way there would be VERY few SOs and the fans would probably get more excited about them when they did happen. Meanwhile most games by far would get decided by the teams on the ice as should be…not in a skills competition.

by BCISLEMAN on Nov 16, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

TV

Apparently that wouldn’t fly with TV broadcasters, or so the thinking goes. (But since when is sudden-death OT not a draw?) I’d love for at least 10 minutes of OT, which would go a long way towards limiting shootouts.

Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.

by Dominik on Nov 16, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well, i would love that, to me the OT is the fastest 5 min in hockey, less stoppages because of all the extra room, and you basically omit your 4th line in OT, you can still roll 4 lines (top 8 from the first 3 lines) and sub in 1 of the other 4 guys if someone tires…

why isn't #16 hanging in the rafters?

by bob l on Nov 16, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It would be awesome. Sudden-death OT is a narcotic. Hell, watching the Panthers game I got excited watching Richard Park — Richard Park! — handle the puck behind the net with a chance to set someone up for the score. (Sadly, Nate Thompson was all he had to pass to.)

Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.

by Dominik on Nov 16, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

what usually happens is that...

one team becomes dominant in OT and the other just tries to hang on to get to the SO. If both teams knew that they would have to duke it out for up to 20 minutes, the OT would be much more interesting.

by BCISLEMAN on Nov 16, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

see, that right there is a problem though, having or choosing to play the park/thompson combo in OT is like making the OT period that much shorter than it already is

why isn't #16 hanging in the rafters?

by bob l on Nov 16, 2009 1:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Heh, true. And with the Islanders’ weak depth, longer OT would probably hurt this quad. But I’m fine with that — it beats settling that extra point based on dekes and tired goalie groins.

Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.

by Dominik on Nov 16, 2009 1:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hurt this quad.

typo or premonition?

why isn't #16 hanging in the rafters?

by bob l on Nov 16, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ha! I sure hope typo. If I start getting premonitions, I want them to be more profitable.

Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.

by Dominik on Nov 16, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ten minutes of OT could possibly happen (probably not) but they are not going to move to 20 minute overtime periods for regular season games.

Now I’m starting to worry that people who didn’t live through regulation ties are growing up thinking the shootout is a proper way to decide a game.

scary, isnt it?

Lets go Islanders...

by TheMetalChick on Nov 16, 2009 1:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow TMC, just reading that thread, you really took on a Herculean task of walking them through it. Have to agree with NYIFC too for marveling at how some people look at a shootout win as 65 minutes of domination.

Sigh. * pulling hair out * I am still trying, Dom. Still trying. I cannot believe the arguments people will put up about this. There is an Avs fan who is insisting that teams cannot possibly tie the game itself anymore. WTH? I have explained it and explained it, he just doesnt GET what I am saying. He keeps saying that the team who loses should get nothing, but you cannot HAVE that and have the shootout! There is no way the NHL would EVER let all-or-nothing 2 points go to the winner of a ****ing skills competition! I keep trying to explain… :( * sob *

Lets go Islanders...

by TheMetalChick on Nov 18, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Fantastic points

Of course this one is up my alley :)

Interesting, I hadn’t even thought of the “they don’t deserve the point” meme in a while and didn’t realize it was still around. That’s absurd, for the reasons you cite. I wonder if part of the thing fueling that meme is the “loser point” label you mention. I’m probably guilty of interchanging “loser point” with “bonus point” too loosely myself, mostly because I just hate this system and I hate the way the standings columns whitewash what has happened.

(Even if in most cases it doesn’t alter the standings, I still prefer to know at a glance how teams are getting their points.)

I loved most of Howie’s rant there, and I agree with him on the shootout being anticlimactic. Always leaves me feeling empty.

Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.

by Dominik on Nov 16, 2009 12:41 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Oh its still around, alright… there is plenty of the “Isles dont deserve to be where they are” grumbling going on. Forget the fact that the Isles have the same record in their last ten games as the Caps (6-2-2) lets pretend that they dont “deserve” to be right where they are lol!

I still prefer to know at a glance how teams are getting their points

Me, too. Thats the next thing Im thinking about and working on.

Lets go Islanders...

by TheMetalChick on Nov 16, 2009 1:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

loser points

Thank you so much for this write up. I had no idea the history behind the additional point rules that were added ‘83-’84 and then again in ‘99-’00. I thought I understood all the components of the extra overtime and shootout points breakdown but this was very informative. Keep up the good work!!

by tmook on Nov 16, 2009 11:33 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

solution

You’re dead on here. Most of this talk stemmed from the Rangers a couple years back when they had won a ton of shootouts, and were pretty high up in the standings despite being in essence a .500 team.

The easy solution is to adjust the point awarding system as follows:
Win in regulation: 3 points
Win in OT or shootout: 2 points
Loss in OT or shootout: 1 point
Loss in regulation: 0 points

by afrosupreme on Nov 16, 2009 11:47 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I’ve always been a fan of that route. If it upset people that points would be inflated (well, we’ve already crossed that bridge, but…), they could mess with half points and such, but I say just fix it and be done with it.

Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.

by Dominik on Nov 16, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I do not think they will change the points system- and their main reason would likely be that it will make things so inconsistent compared to the rest of hockey history. However, as was explored with this article, the way things are now is what is really inconsistent with history!

Lets go Islanders...

by TheMetalChick on Nov 16, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Indeed. I think another reason they wouldn’t go to that system is they like the artificial parity the current system creates, with three-point games being created by among teams that don’t win in regulation

Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.

by Dominik on Nov 16, 2009 1:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you are right that they probably won’t change it, but I speculate it’s for a different reason. They started this whole 4-4 OT/SO thing to make the game more exciting for the fans, even though by the time it reaches the SO they might as well end it with a coin flip. I think they wanted to stick to two points to legitimate the process, i.e. make a SO victory “equal” to a regular one. Everyone knows it’s a circus act, but they really wanted it taken seriously. Now that it’s become normalized, it’s time to move on to a more logical scoring system that admits a SO victory is not equal to a regulation win.

by afrosupreme on Nov 17, 2009 9:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think that reasoning was a part of it, yes.

One thing I’m thankful for when they did create this: The GMs who insisted on the “loser point” (which TMC has identified as, in fact, just the normal old point you get for a tie) in the event of a shootout. They probably couldn’t have instituted the shootout if they hadn’t agreed to still respect 65 minutes of tied effort … which brings me back to the whole initial complaint, of course.

Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.

by Dominik on Nov 18, 2009 1:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree that this point system would be, to quote my redneck father, “more gooder”. I also understand that it would skew how we look back in history. A team that plays .500 in the regular season would end up with 123 points instead of 82 that they got in the distant past. Those kind of numbers would take hitting 100 point mark from a lock on the playoffs, to possibly 12th or 13th place.
Look at it this way, right now if a team wins half of their season they get the aforementioned 82 points. Now in the 41 games they didn’t win, let’s say they tied one more than half of them, there is another 21 points. now they are almost a “true” .500 team… with 103 points!
Has it happened before? Not that I know of, and I highly doubt that it will. If it is going to happen though, I want it to be either the Hawks or the Isles to do it!

SHOOOOOOOT IT!!!! Anon

by burpchelischili on Dec 12, 2009 4:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

TMC, you failed to mention a (forgotten) problem with the OT time though, the fact that if you want/need to win so bad, that you pull your goalie, you forfeit your OT point should you lose… they took away a daring aspect of the game… if you are awarding a point for a 60 min tie, then what do you care if they are throwing caution to the wind and playing 5 skaters vs 4 and a goalie, who’s to say 1 is more productive then the other… oh thats right, the nhl is…

why isn't #16 hanging in the rafters?

by bob l on Nov 16, 2009 1:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Wow, that’s a helluva point … I haven’t thought about that wrinkle rule in quite a while. Oh NHL, why must you toy with us so?

Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.

by Dominik on Nov 16, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i hadn’t thought about it in a while either, but imagine in TB and COL started pulling the goalie every OT over the last 3 weeks of the season last year…then what???

why isn't #16 hanging in the rafters?

by bob l on Nov 16, 2009 1:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Always a nice trivia question

who scored the first regular season OT winner?
Bobby Bourne against the Caps. First OT game I think as well.

by 7:11_OT on Nov 16, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

meant to say after they reinstated it, used to have it back in the 20s and 30s

by 7:11_OT on Nov 16, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great write-up

Definitely agree with most of what’s been said here (and Howie Rose). I was at that Caps-Isles game, and I’ll admit I was on my feet cheering during the shootout…but you know what else would have gotten me on my feet? More real hockey. Hockey overtime is simply the most beautiful thing in sports, and Howie’s 100% right when he says that the shootout kills some of the drama. It’s fun, but it’s nowhere near as intense or awesome as sudden-death OT.

"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09

by cjmulrain on Nov 16, 2009 2:39 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

agree, the shootout definitely kills the drama…..just has a feel of “we are doing this to get this thing over ASAP”. While its a given I am happy to get one more point than the other team, I in no way feel the Isles “beat” the other team, or were “beaten”…and that makes all the difference to me.

by 7:11_OT on Nov 16, 2009 2:54 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

not to mention the fact that instead of the 130 or so ties Roy and Marty have in their career, they would have 65+ more wins than they already have… so in 15 years they will be passed by good (but not HOF-type) goalies just because they picked up 5 wins more instead of 8-10 ties in a year (much like the great HR hitters of years passed are giving way to the Palmeiro’s and Sosa’s of MLB

why isn't #16 hanging in the rafters?

by bob l on Nov 16, 2009 3:25 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

UGH!!!!!!!!!!

I just read this Fanhouse article by Adam Gretz and it is a further examples of this “loser point” BS being a real problem. Its not only kids that are making these mistakes now, its even professional hockey writers who are getting things totally wrong. Its getting to where people are losing sight of what is actually happening.

Here is the quote that ticked me off:

“…[the Isles] may be benefiting from the NHL’s point system that rewards teams for losing in overtime (the Islanders have lost seven games in overtime)…”

This is of course not true. The Islanders have NOT “lost seven games in overtime” The truth is that they have only lost three games in OT. The Islanders lost 4 games in the SO- NOT in OT. I left Adam a comment explaining why he is wrong, but I fear that its an uphill battle when it comes to getting people to grasp WHO is actually artificially benefitting from these supposed “loser points.” Now professionals dont even know the difference between getting legitimately scored on in OT and losing a silly shootout? That is bad news.

Lets go Islanders...

by TheMetalChick on Nov 17, 2009 9:09 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

lazy fn writing is what it comes down too, this is nothing new…

why isn't #16 hanging in the rafters?

by bob l on Nov 17, 2009 10:15 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's aggravating

On the bright side, I see he’s already corrected it. Way to keep ‘em honest! Don’t know if the “but they’re at least competing…” caveat was there before.

Point kind of loses its muster when he’s talking about them losing four shootouts. (“Gee, we lost a breakaway drill but the league mercifully gave us a point for the other 65 minutes of tied hockey! Lucky us!”)

Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.

by Dominik on Nov 17, 2009 10:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and anyway...

we would still have been given a point under the old system for a tie in regulation.

by BCISLEMAN on Nov 17, 2009 12:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs


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Sean Bergenheim 20 LW 2/8/1984 205 5-10
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Trent Hunter 7 RW 7/5/1980 210 6-3
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Freddy Meyer 44 D 1/4/1981 192 5-10
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Richard Park 10 RW 5/27/1976 190 5-11
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Rob Schremp 13 C 7/1/1986 200 5-11
Jon Sim 16 LW 9/29/1977 195 5-10
Mark Streit 2 D 12/11/1977 197 6-0
Andy Sutton 25 D 3/10/1975 245 6-6
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